RWBY 2024 CRT Part 1: Maiden Scaling

[Cire]

Hater's gonna hate, I'm just a bit silly ;3

That's not how it works, we never even see her arm sustain any damage in the entire Raven fight, and every time her arm is damaged it is rather effortless. You say it needs to be able to understand "such feats of strength" but as I mentioned earlier her restraining Raven is lifting strength, not AP, and this makes sense, she needs to restrain maiden's to steal their power.

Block, reflected, same thing! The action was so easy for her, it required little effort, this does not help your point whether it's blocked or deflected, no needs for pedantics.

She sure is taking those backshots... oh wait, wrong site. She sure is taking those attacks... struggling to hold her own or even fight back, Cinder is very easily dealing with her, doesn't even look like she's trying which is in character especially since she's basically won.

Also, she was oneshot by the explosion, which was what I was addressing. She can't even make a glyph or anything to go back up, she does nothing.


You are ignoring my point about Inverse Square Law and the fact that he purposely makes a big shield to absorb most of the impact so it doesn't break through.

Winter was trained to handle Maiden powers beforehand and is also just trained in general, Penny is also a trained robot with many different abilities. We know 0, zilch, nada about Amber, she is featless.

The arm doesn't have to sustain damage. You are trying to create a separate AP/Dura for it that fails to account the laws of physics. If that arm is outputting enough power to match Raven, then it has to survive the output in the first place.

Blocking and reflecting are two different things. Blocking takes more force. I can reflect a laser beam by putting up a mirror. That doesn't make me town level. That's just physics.

Cinder has no reason to hold back against Weiss because she ******* hates her. She would be trying to kill Weiss as fast as possible to mess with Winter. Also, the reason why Weiss didn't create a glphy was that she had no aura left. She couldn't use her semblance.

You are ignoring that Penny wasn't trained to use the maiden powers as well. While she was a robot, Pyrrha in V3 was still able to fight equally and kill her. Cinder in V7 could hold her off as well.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Cinder has no reason to hold back against Weiss because she ******* hates her. She would be trying to kill Weiss as fast as possible to mess with Winter. Also, the reason why Weiss didn't create a glphy was that she had no aura left. She couldn't use her semblance.

I never said she was holding back or didn’t want to kill her just that she was easily dispatching Weiss and it looks like she wasn’t even trying while doing so. Of course she wants Weiss dead, why do you think she blew her up with an explosion to send her into an abyss she thought would have killed her, her doing this messes with Winter and still completed the goal of killing her.
The point is Cinder didn’t have much difficulty doing this.

The arm doesn't have to sustain damage. You are trying to create a separate AP/Dura for it that fails to account the laws of physics. If that arm is outputting enough power to match Raven, then it has to survive the output in the first place.

What power is there to match? Cinder uses her weapons to fight, leaving the arm as a means to restrain targets, which once again is lifting strength not direct AP. She NEEDS the arm to drain Maiden powers, and the series shows us it is a very exploitable WEAK point.

If she was using it to go blow for blow people, I’d get it, but she doesn’t. This may not “follow the laws of physics” but guess what? It’s fiction, many series have the weak point trope despite the fact it may not follow physics rigidly.

Blocking and reflecting are two different things. Blocking takes more force. I can reflect a laser beam by putting up a mirror. That doesn't make me town level. That's just physics.

Once again, I’d like to call back to my first message. We don’t know how this gun works or how it was supposed to kill Penny.
Winter reflecting it is simply a means to show how easy and effortless it is, that since she is a maiden she can defeat Ironwood easily. The point I was getting at is that whether she is blocking or reflecting it she does it with ease and no effort whatsoever.

You are ignoring that Penny wasn't trained to use the maiden powers as well. While she was a robot, Pyrrha in V3 was still able to fight equally and kill her. Cinder in V7 could hold her off as well.

What does Pyrrha killing Penny have to do with Penny being able to use Maiden powers? If anything utilizing them is an act of knowledge and know how, something the two would possess and show.

The point about Amber is she shows nothing, she’s featless, we don’t know her capabilities or how strong she was therefore the Cinder and Co. fight from V3 should not be used as a means to justify maiden scaling.

 

[Keeweed]

Plus volume 3 characters scaling to the maidens breaks the scaling even harder since a monstrously stronger team Rwby lost against Cinder badly and a stronger Ironwood specifically needs a weapon to harm the maidens and it failed horribly from Winter easily sending it back with her power. Maidens can be stronger than each other as shown by the previous winter maiden stomping Cinder while half dead and waking up from a coma.

 

[Homie890]

She sure is taking those backshots...

?

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah not really convinced by these arguments, the Cinder Grimm arm thing ignores how not only does it lack aura, but during the Raven Cinder fight in Volume 5, a random shrapnel was able to stab through Cinder’s Grimm arm, something Raven pointed out as something its weak to. Plus you’d have to ignore how the writers consistently use Aura as a basis for someone’s power level in the series where someone getting their aura broken or flickering is a sign of the person doing that either surpassing or being on their level. Tyrian vs Qrow in Volume 4 is a prime example when the former toyed with Team RNGR and Qrow can get to where his aura broke completely while keeping up with him.

 

[Spinoirr]

Cant we wait for King?

 

[CurrySenpai]

Cant we wait for King?

That’s fine, but Cire is bringing up points, and I think it’s common courtesy for us to address each others points.

 

[Homie890]

nah bruh,curry really entered the top 5 biggest haters of 2024

 

[Cire]

Yeah not really convinced by these arguments, the Cinder Grimm arm thing ignores how not only does it lack aura, but during the Raven Cinder fight in Volume 5, a random shrapnel was able to stab through Cinder’s Grimm arm, something Raven pointed out as something its weak to. Plus you’d have to ignore how the writers consistently use Aura as a basis for someone’s power level in the series where someone getting their aura broken or flickering is a sign of the person doing that either surpassing or being on their level. Tyrian vs Qrow in Volume 4 is a prime example when the former toyed with Team RNGR and Qrow can get to where his aura broke completely while keeping up with him.

It’s a weak point yet can still produce enough energy to harm maidens. If it couldn’t, it would break. For Curry’s point, just because Cinder’s using weapons does not mean that Cinder isn’t using her arm at all. The arm is what is producing the force. A sword doesn’t swing by itself.

Also, we have not even discussed the other instances of characters harming maidens.

 

[Cire]

Plus volume 3 characters scaling to the maidens breaks the scaling even harder since a monstrously stronger team Rwby lost against Cinder badly and a stronger Ironwood specifically needs a weapon to harm the maidens and it failed horribly from Winter easily sending it back with her power. Maidens can be stronger than each other as shown by the previous winter maiden stomping Cinder while half dead and waking up from a coma.

Again, they didn’t lose to Cinder. The fight was stopped when Neo tried to kill Ruby. It turned into a 2v5. And most of the team, the team were concerned about protecting the civilians as well. Like when Weiss made that giant sword to block Cinder’s attacks

 

[Theglassman12]

@Cire The grimm arm specifically drains the power of Maidens on contact, that’s literally why she got some of the maiden powers from Amber and she threatened the same thing to both Penny and Raven. So no it doesn’t “produce energy to harm maidens” like you argue it does.

 

[Cire]

@Cire The grimm arm specifically drains the power of Maidens on contact, that’s literally why she got some of the maiden powers from Amber and she threatened the same thing to both Penny and Raven. So no it doesn’t “produce energy to harm maidens” like you argue it does.

She still uses it for physical strikes. She uses it to swing her sword. That's what I mean. Not like an anti-maiden thing. I wasn't clear before. I mean that it is strong enough to hurt maidens.

 

[CurrySenpai]

nah bruh,curry really entered the top 5 biggest haters of 2024

I became the man I sought to oppose, DMUA.

 

[Cire]

On the Winter vs Cinder fight, Winter was also able to block and deflect multiple knives and swords chucked by Cinder. If we are following Curry's line of logic, that would mean Winter scales, as blocking an attack means you can withstand the force needed to do it. Like, we absolutely know for a fact that Cinder was trying to kill Winter with all of her might, yet Winter still managed to hold on and block her attacks without aura. That is impressive and should be considered.

For the Amber stuff, what I am saying is that once you get your maiden powers, you are basically equal to others unless they are fully realized. Penny didn't train to have maiden powers yet she still could fight Cinder.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Cire The aura stuff makes the knife blocking part irrelevant. Especially when that’s a common trope of characters trying to dodge or block attacks from characters that are clearly far stronger than them but the foe isn’t going all out all out unless you want to say that Batman just physically scales to Darkseid in a lot of the animated stuff despite him clearly not on his level without some form of prep time.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Well dang, a whole page spawned.

Will get to my arguments in a sec.

 

[CurrySenpai]

On the Winter vs Cinder fight, Winter was also able to block and deflect multiple knives and swords chucked by Cinder. If we are following Curry's line of logic, that would mean Winter scales, as blocking an attack means you can withstand the force needed to do it. Like, we absolutely know for a fact that Cinder was trying to kill Winter with all of her might, yet Winter still managed to hold on and block her attacks without aura. That is impressive and should be considered.

...What? My logic was that Ironwood's laser getting swatter away is proof no one should scale to the Maidens because they're above them lol, not that it proves someone's comparable and can scale, I've also consistently contested the laser scaling to the full power of maidens.

For the Amber stuff, what I am saying is that once you get your maiden powers, you are basically equal to others unless they are fully realized. Penny didn't train to have maiden powers yet she still could fight Cinder.

Once again, no. Amber being Tier 7 not only absolutely ruins the scaling but makes 0 sense without any feats or comparisons.

 

[Cire]

@Cire The aura stuff makes the knife blocking part irrelevant. Especially when that’s a common trope of characters trying to dodge or block attacks from characters that are clearly far stronger than them but the foe isn’t going all out all out unless you want to say that Batman just physically scales to Darkseid in a lot of the animated stuff despite him clearly not on his level without some form of prep time.

Darkseid is trying to go all out in killing Batman. Cinder screaming in bloody murder after she got her arm cut off and then focusing all her attention on Winter to kill her is more logical. Also, what do you mean aura stuff?

 

[Homie890]

oh hell nah,curry has managed to surpass kendrick in questions of hatin' bruh.

 

[Cire]

...What? My logic was that Ironwood's laser getting swatter away is proof no one should scale to the Maidens because they're above them lol, not that it proves someone's comparable and can scale, I've also consistently contested the laser scaling to the full power of maidens.

Once again, no. Amber being Tier 7 not only absolutely ruins the scaling but makes 0 sense without any feats or comparisons.

Ironwood's laser didn't get swatted away. Winter created a specific shield to reflect the attack back. That's what I mean. She didn't no sell it through physical means.

And, if it's Amber being tier 7 is the problem, then I don't see much issue. Just adjust the tiering to make it correct. It is, once again, clear that once maidens get their powers they can hang with other maidens. Penny was not trained with maiden powers yet did just fine against Cinder. Heck, she beat her, and Cinder had much more experience with her powers.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Ironwood's laser didn't get swatted away. Winter created a specific shield to reflect the attack back. That's what I mean. She didn't no sell it through physical means.

Once again, you KNOW what I mean, don't get pedantic about my word choice you know I'm talking about her deflecting, swatting, whatever the laser lol.

 

[Cire]

Once again, you KNOW what I mean, don't get pedantic about my word choice you know I'm talking about her deflecting, swatting, whatever the laser lol.

I know what you mean. I am saying that there is big difference between holding up a mirror to deflect a laser and just blocking it with your body.

 

[Shadyboi0]

Yeah, Blud has no feats? Cooked.

 

[Cire]

Yeah, Blud has no feats? Cooked.

Her entire feat is being a maiden. And being a maiden in this verse means you automatically scale to other maidens. It's also proof that maidens in general are not invincible to the other members.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Yeah, Blud has no feats? Cooked.

No feats?

 

[CurrySenpai]

Her entire feat is being a maiden. And being a maiden in this verse means you automatically scale to other maidens. It's also proof that maidens in general are not invincible to the other members.

Where did this arbitrary maiden chain scaling come from I’m genuinely curious. Like are there statements in this? Does this really exist?

Also, this is like saying “Well Endeavor became number 1 hero eventually so everything he does should scale to All Might.” Similar Position does not = similar scaling

 

[Cire]

Where did this arbitrary maiden chain scaling come from I’m genuinely curious. Like are there statements in this? Does this really exist?

Also, this is like saying “Well Endeavor became number 1 hero eventually so everything he does should scale to All Might.” Similar Position does not = similar scaling

It comes from the fact that to become a maiden, a ton of magic power goes into you. That's where the scaling comes from. Penny went from barely keeping up (but still being able to survive attacks and hurt Cinder) to straight up beating her in a fight. A maiden is not a title. It is a position of power.

 

[Spinoirr]

Where did this arbitrary maiden chain scaling come from I’m genuinely curious. Like are there statements in this? Does this really exist?

Also, this is like saying “Well Endeavor became number 1 hero eventually so everything he does should scale to All Might.” Similar Position does not = similar scaling

It's more like when Izuku gets one for all from all Might and he uses 100%, his 100% is strong as all mights

 

[Cire]

Each maiden has an equal amount of power due to the split Ozpin made back in the day. He divided his own power four ways to the maidens per the fairy tale, which we know to be true.

The Four Maidens

For the page about the Maidens, see Maidens. "The Four Maidens" is the eighth episode of RWBY: World of Remnant and the fourth episode to accompany Volume 3. It was released for sponsors on the Rooster Teeth website on January 23rd, 2016 and was made public on January 24th, 2016. The episode...

rwby.fandom.com

"The wizard summoned his magic, every ounce he could muster, and bestowed it upon the sisters."

Thus, each maiden has an equal amount of power. And there are no statements that one maiden has more magic power than the other one due to a possible uneven split.

 

[CurrySenpai]

This mentions nothing about power, you are pulling this from nowhere and random assumptions, also this has nothing to do with everyone else scaling to maidens

 

[Cire]

This mentions nothing about power, you are pulling this from nowhere and random assumptions, also this has nothing to do with everyone else scaling to maidens

The maidens get all their power from magic. They all have an equal amount of magic, thus power. Thus, Amber would have the same amount of magic power as Cinder or a newly maiden Penny.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Ok, to begin: I agree that the characters should downscale going by a few things. In this response, I will solely tackle the biggest point I have for the downscaling.

Winter and Pre-Maiden Penny.

Now, as a history lesson, we know that large enough gaps in power can one shot a character through their Aura, seen with Yang and Adam. We have also seen this with cases like the Atlesian Mech one shotting Jaune and Nora. It’s pretty well established that if the force coming at you is strong enough, your Aura will get shattered in a single hit or be completely ignored.

That said, let’s analyze the fight:

Cinder, with her Grimm Arm, casually stops Penny and throws her away. No scaling, other than showing that Cinder’s Grimm Arm DOES have a level of durability against blunt force, and that physically, Cinder is superior to both combatants here.

Winter steps up and they exchange blows. Cinder expresses her hatred of Atlas elites and gets a kick off that knocks Winter down for a while. She clearly isn’t going all out here, she’s posturing, living a fantasy of kicking down a person she hates. No scalimg, and again, displaying her superiority. In a 1v1, neither of these characters would do anything meaningful to her if she genuinely wanted them dead, other than holding out for an unknown amount of time.

Penny steps up, fails to do anything as Cimder just deflects everything.

Both Winter and Penny step up and here is where possible scaling begins. Cinder starts directly kicking them, similar to how she did Winter previously, but they are simply knocked back instead of one shot. Cinder at this point is grunting in frustration and anger because she wants to kill them and get on with her mission, her DREAM. Them not dying or having their aura flare/break instantly is showing a degree of scaling already, at least for their aura vs Cinder’s physical attacks.

Cinder then gets really mad, grabs them and breaks them through the wall. She drops Winter, throws Penny, and launches a flaming sword with the absolute intent of killing her either with the blade stabbing her through the skull or the explosion following it. When she performs this move against Penny, the entirety of her focus is on killing her. That flaming sword exploding is doing so with the force of her maiden powers, aura and semblance behind it. Penny is blown away, but her aura does not flash up, signifying the hit is painful but not enough to debilitate her.

Penny comes back up and Cinder is breathing angrily, a sign that she is exerting herself. She is not being casual and has not been casual for this fight, at least since the time she grabbed their faces to now. She is PISSED that Penny is alive. She wants Penny and Winter dead. She has been trying to KILL THEM.

Right here, at the moment Cinder rages that they are not dead, is where my belief they should downscale comes in. Them not dying or having their aura break = they are comparable enough to Cinder at her full power that she is pissed they don’t die sooner. Otherwise, imo, she should have her intelligence reduced to below average for not knowing how to use her own power.

Winter pulls up, her summon blasts Cinder back but doesn’t seem to do much but annoy her. More skirmishes, another fireball to her and she grunts in seeming pain before screaming angrily and rushing at them, one shotting the summon and destroying Winter’s aura with a fireball. Winter is tapped, cooked, weakened. She is weaker than Cinder and thus runs out of Aura first. Downed in not even 3 minutes of combat in a 1v2 where she was absent or knocked back half the time.

Plot happens, yada yada, pointless Maiden Penny, whatever, and Winter cuts off the Grimm arm. Note: the Grimm arm is a weak point despite its prior showing, and handling a punch =/= a sword cutting your arm off. Winter then fights Cinder and can deflect/block her hits, but without aura, is clearly getting completely outclassed and would absolutely die in about 15 seconds without Penny. Fight over.

So IMO: yeah nah, Penny and Winter should Downscale from Cinder. Aura is doing some heavy lifting, but in total, Winter took 4 hits while Penny took ~3, one of which was an absolutely bloodlusted exploding magic sword toss that Cinder wanted to kill her with. The fact their aura didn’t crumble immediately from her hits, and only after Winter had taken 3 attacks, spent aura amplifying herself and used it to summon twice (birds and sphinx? Thing?) shows that they can naturally take a few hits from her.

On the other hand, Cinder was damn near a walking tank to them. Their physical strikes are nothing to her Grimm arm, let alone her with Aura. She is pissed they aren’t dying faster, but she IS trying. Their attacks have little effect on her, showcasing her superiority, but hers aren’t having the effect she wants, which is their instantaneous death.

 

[CurrySenpai]

The maidens get all their power from magic. They all have an equal amount of magic, thus power. Thus, Amber would have the same amount of magic power as Cinder or a newly maiden Penny.

and this makes them all equal amounts of stats immediately how? Magic Power and physical power is different, and also, this once again does not address the fact the Amber is fearless and appears in a time in the series where Tier 7 is a pipe dream, and that characters scaling to her makes more problems than it does issues.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Ok, to begin: I agree that the characters should downscale going by a few things. In this response, I will solely tackle the biggest point I have for the downscaling.

Winter and Pre-Maiden Penny.

Now, as a history lesson, we know that large enough gaps in power can one shot a character through their Aura, seen with Yang and Adam. We have also seen this with cases like the Atlesian Mech one shotting Jaune and Nora. It’s pretty well established that if the force coming at you is strong enough, your Aura will get shattered in a single hit or be completely ignored.

That said, let’s analyze the fight:

Cinder, with her Grimm Arm, casually stops Penny and throws her away. No scaling, other than showing that Cinder’s Grimm Arm DOES have a level of durability against blunt force, and that physically, Cinder is superior to both combatants here.

Winter steps up and they exchange blows. Cinder expresses her hatred of Atlas elites and gets a kick off that knocks Winter down for a while. She clearly isn’t going all out here, she’s posturing, living a fantasy of kicking down a person she hates. No scalimg, and again, displaying her superiority. In a 1v1, neither of these characters would do anything meaningful to her if she genuinely wanted them dead, other than holding out for an unknown amount of time.

Penny steps up, fails to do anything as Cimder just deflects everything.

Both Winter and Penny step up and here is where possible scaling begins. Cinder starts directly kicking them, similar to how she did Winter previously, but they are simply knocked back instead of one shot. Cinder at this point is grunting in frustration and anger because she wants to kill them and get on with her mission, her DREAM. Them not dying or having their aura flare/break instantly is showing a degree of scaling already, at least for their aura vs Cinder’s physical attacks.

Cinder then gets really mad, grabs them and breaks them through the wall. She drops Winter, throws Penny, and launches a flaming sword with the absolute intent of killing her either with the blade stabbing her through the skull or the explosion following it. When she performs this move against Penny, the entirety of her focus is on killing her. That flaming sword exploding is doing so with the force of her maiden powers, aura and semblance behind it. Penny is blown away, but her aura does not flash up, signifying the hit is painful but not enough to debilitate her.

Penny comes back up and Cinder is breathing angrily, a sign that she is exerting herself. She is not being casual and has not been casual for this fight, at least since the time she grabbed their faces to now. She is PISSED that Penny is alive. She wants Penny and Winter dead. She has been trying to KILL THEM.

Right here, at the moment Cinder rages that they are not dead, is where my belief they should downscale comes in. Them not dying or having their aura break = they are comparable enough to Cinder at her full power that she is pissed they don’t die sooner. Otherwise, imo, she should have her intelligence reduced to below average for not knowing how to use her own power.

Winter pulls up, her summon blasts Cinder back but doesn’t seem to do much but annoy her. More skirmishes, another fireball to her and she grunts in seeming pain before screaming angrily and rushing at them, one shotting the summon and destroying Winter’s aura with a fireball. Winter is tapped, cooked, weakened. She is weaker than Cinder and thus runs out of Aura first. Downed in not even 3 minutes of combat in a 1v2 where she was absent or knocked back half the time.

Plot happens, yada yada, pointless Maiden Penny, whatever, and Winter cuts off the Grimm arm. Note: the Grimm arm is a weak point despite its prior showing, and handling a punch =/= a sword cutting your arm off. Winter then fights Cinder and can deflect/block her hits, but without aura, is clearly getting completely outclassed and would absolutely die in about 15 seconds without Penny. Fight over.

So IMO: yeah nah, Penny and Winter should Downscale from Cinder. Aura is doing some heavy lifting, but in total, Winter took 4 hits while Penny took ~3, one of which was an absolutely bloodlusted exploding magic sword toss that Cinder wanted to kill her with. The fact their aura didn’t crumble immediately from her hits, and only after Winter had taken 3 attacks, spent aura amplifying herself and used it to summon twice (birds and sphinx? Thing?) shows that they can naturally take a few hits from her.

On the other hand, Cinder was damn near a walking tank to them. Their physical strikes are nothing to her Grimm arm, let alone her with Aura. She is pissed they aren’t dying faster, but she IS trying. Their attacks have little effect on her, showcasing her superiority, but hers aren’t having the effect she wants, which is their instantaneous death.

I’ll let Glass handle this one, I got some Fortnite fall guys to play as a break in between sending this verse to Subsonic speeds frfr /j

 

[Spinoirr]

and this makes them all equal amounts of stats immediately how? Magic Power and physical power is different, and also, this once again does not address the fact the Amber is fearless and appears in a time in the series where Tier 7 is a pipe dream, and that characters scaling to her makes more problems than it does issues.

Magic should be a UES ngl

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Ironwood’s gun is trolling btw. He claims it’s strong enough to EZ kill Maiden Penny but Winter blocks it? Are Winter’s glyphs >>> Maidens? I honestly consider that whole weapon an anti-feat to scaling to Maidens because of how dumb it is that it didn’t just blast through the glyphs and one shot kill Winter unless Ironwood meant that it could kill a Maiden in several shots.

 

[Cire]

and this makes them all equal amounts of stats immediately how? Magic Power and physical power is different, and also, this once again does not address the fact the Amber is fearless and appears in a time in the series where Tier 7 is a pipe dream, and that characters scaling to her makes more problems than it does issues.

Magic power is directly tied to physical strength. It’s how a dying old lady could hold back Cinder from touching her.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Magic power is directly tied to physical strength. It’s how a dying old lady could hold back Cinder from touching her.

Can I have scans for magic power being tied to physical stats?

 

[Cire]

Magic should be a UES ngl

What’s UES?

 

[Spinoirr]

What’s UES?

Universal Energy System

Like ki from Dragon Ball