Earthbound: The War against Truth of the Universe (Also known as, massive downgrades)

[Oleggator]

Now, before we'll get to "cosmology" from starters:

Speed:

Massively Hypersonic+ combat speed and reactions (PSI Users are shown to fight at speeds comparable to PK Thunder, which should behave like a real lightning due to it being naturally used from setient clouds, other than being able to fight opponents who are comparable to said attack as well)

I guess it comes because enemies can "dodge" PK Thunder am I right? Well, link itself with which is tried to be implies that enemies are dodging PK Thunder is wrong because PK Thunder "didn't hit anyone". Or in other words no one dodged PK Thunder, it just missed. The entire point of PK Thunder that it's hit or miss move, so thinking that someone actually dodges PK Thunder is iffy to say the least.

What? Equalize other psychic attacks in speed to PK Thunder? Then why in hell we're even comparing PK Thunder to real thunder? Excuse me, but this is not how it works. If you want equalize PK Thunder to actual Thunder, then please, equalize other stuff, such as PK Fire to real fire and PK Freeze to actual Ice. Assuming PK attacks are same in speed is dumb.

Relativistic+

Basically scaling to Mother 3 crew. Scaling in speed doesn't works however since Mother 3 events are basically hundreds if not thousands of years after Mother 2 where was already upgraded Porky with spider mech. In other words, either delete rela rating for any character except for Mother 3 crew at all, or change rating to "possibly" for anyone who is not from Mother 3.

Lifting Strenght:

Class M (Able to lift a submarine alongside Paula and Jeff)

Via submarine basically, nothing wrong but, it worth to specify exact submarine we are using for reference, since weight of submarine is pretty much varied. And overall feat should be calced.

Range:

possibly up to Kilometers with PSI (Comparable to Paula, who can use PK Thunder, which has been demonstrated by several enemies to behave similar to normal lightning)

Ok but this doesn't makes sense, since.
1. It was not demonstrated for PSI abilities to reach Kilometers in game combat.
2. Same logic, if you want compare PK Thunder to irl Thunder, compare fire to fire, freeze to freeze and etc.

And now the most important thing.

Earthbound "Cosmology"
This occurs to everything Earthbound related, "Truth" of the universe, blog, The legends of localization, The Player, 5D stuff, anything what makes EB god tiers OP on this wiki if oversimplify.

Cause there's stuff like either taking stuff out of context, or taking words more than a simple metaphor.

Like, look at the "Truth" of the universe, it was mentioned only twice in the games. Twice, both times when it was mentioned as a concept, not as literal being.

And all quotes which blog uses can be taken as what it is. A simple Metaphor.
This, that, this, and everything else uses quotes and takes them too literally. For instance.
Ness's intelligence:

Nigh-Omniscient (Touched the Truth of the Universe and gained the ultimate intelligence, making him all-knowing about the Mother 1+2 timeline)

Since when "ultimate intelligence" means "knows everything"? This is not how any sort of omniscience works, it's like giving nigh-omniscience for just being smart.
or

Unknown for his avatars (Far faster than before, but on an unknown degree), Nigh-Omnipresent for his True Self

and

Immeasurable (Exists across all of time due to being the conscious mind of the universe). 12 (or 13 in the American release) as an Avatar

Not only it doesn't has justifications of Ness becoming literally a universe, but let's look at it's justification from blog:

Heavily implied to use avatars due of the true form being developed in Magicant, with the main body still being in the "main universe", meaning that Ness uses his physical body as avatar to interact with the timeline.

Oh cool, but what is said doesn't said in the video justifications relies to.

But ok, ok it is reliant on the Ness being somewhere else while being in Magicant. But what if I'm gonna tell you more than this.
lady and gentlemen I present you, official Earthbound Guidebook. Specifically page 96, Magicant page:

The land of Magicant exists only in your mind.

And well, that statement alone ruins most of stuff blog relies to (besides the obvious as heck metaphors), since blog assumes Magicant exists as separate universe while the guidebook (and let me repeat that official guidebook, which Nintendo by themselves posted online) says pretty clearly that Magicant is nothing more but a world inside of Ness's head.

"But wait this is English guidebook and not Japanese"

Ok, find me Japanese one, post here and problem can be solved in theory. Besides most of the stuff English and Japanese version of Earthbound differ mostly in censure of some American products, such as monopoly or coca cola reference, of course to run out from potential lawsuits.

But I have not ended, here, we can see this being stated.

Magicant was a mirage...
A mirage born of Maria's consciousness.

Which supports the guidebook. But to add more.

Here we can see that while Ness "was" in Magicant, he was sleeping. Which along with Mother 1 statement, along with official guidebook tells that Magicant was nothing more but a "mirage" a "world that exists only in your head" you could even say "dream", considering Ness and Maria were unconscious.

And another worth to say thing, the Player stuff is also bad constructed. I think we should all remember that I am the player, You are the player, game asks our name, not someone's else made up being.

That's right, you--the one holding the controller

and

Please tell me your name.
Yes, the name of the person playing this game.

There's no certain being who plays these games, we are the ones who are playing these games.

This is not Undertale or Deltarune where there's something complex about player, since you are the player.

That all makes me want to either relook at all this stuff or just delete everything related to it.

It was easily accepted by a few mods previous time.
This time I want more people to take attention to the fact of how most of stuff about Earthbound in this wiki takes everything more serious than it supposed to be.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I agree

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm going to preface this with the fact that while I love Earthbound, I haven't played it in over a year and when I did I definitely didn't with a battleboarding mindset.

I guess it comes because enemies can "dodge" PK Thunder am I right? Well, link itself with which is tried to be implies that enemies are dodging PK Thunder is wrong because PK Thunder "didn't hit anyone". Or in other words no one dodged PK Thunder, it just missed. The entire point of PK Thunder that it's hit or miss move, so thinking that someone actually dodges PK Thunder is iffy to say the least.

I can definitely agree with this. Isn't there a scene in Mother 3 where Lucas gets hit by lightning, anyway?

What? Equalize other psychic attacks in speed to PK Thunder? Then why in hell we're even comparing PK Thunder to real thunder? Excuse me, but this is not how it works. If you want equalize PK Thunder to actual Thunder, then please, equalize other stuff, such as PK Fire to real fire and PK Freeze to actual Ice. Assuming PK attacks are same in speed is dumb.

Ice and fire don't really have a set in stone speed so this really doesn't mean anything.

Basically scaling to Mother 3 crew. Scaling in speed doesn't works however since Mother 3 events are basically hundreds if not thousands of years after Mother 2 where was already upgraded Porky with spider mech. In other words, either delete rela rating for any character except for Mother 3 crew at all, or change rating to "possibly" for anyone who is not from Mother 3.

To be honest, does the light stuff qualify as SOL to begin with?

Via submarine basically, nothing wrong but, it worth to specify exact submarine we are using for reference, since weight of submarine is pretty much varied. And overall feat should be calced.

Looking into it, manned submarines vary from 35 tons to 48 thousand so that might be rough, especially with Earthbound's artstyle making the submarine look very small. The Yellow Submarine Beatles song is metaphorical in nature too so we can't use that.

Ok but this doesn't makes sense, since.
1. It was not demonstrated for PSI abilities to reach Kilometers in game combat.
2. Same logic, if you want compare PK Thunder to irl Thunder, compare fire to fire, freeze to freeze and etc.

I don't think these arguments are in themselves particularly valid, however, I think the range should be downgraded because being able to project lightning from the clouds doesn't mean you can cast spells that far, unless we're scaling all PSI to itself, in which case it should be at least tens of kilometers based on Paula speaking to Jeff while captive. But I don't think there's much evidence for that.

This occurs to everything Earthbound related, "Truth" of the universe, blog, The legends of localization, The Player, 5D stuff, anything what makes EB god tiers OP on this wiki if oversimplify.

Cause there's stuff like either taking stuff out of context, or taking words more than a simple metaphor.

Like, look at the "Truth" of the universe, it was mentioned only twice in the games. Twice, both times when it was mentioned as a concept, not as literal being.

And all quotes which blog uses can be taken as what it is. A simple Metaphor.
This, that, this, and everything else uses quotes and takes them too literally.

This is going to be very controversial, but I absolutely agree with this, Earthbound is an artistic piece of media, and interpreting everything in it as super-literal is doing it a disservice, especially when it's never even implied to be. It's no different from any other RPG's "fate is with you young hero".

The destiny of the universe overlapping with Ness' simply means that if Ness fails, the universe is doomed, for example. Touching the truth of the universe just means you're coming into contact with that ultimate intelligence, not that it's an actual, "tangible" entity. And the game over screen is... literally nothing. It's a game over screen with a cute little theme to it.

Since when "ultimate intelligence" means "knows everything"? This is not how any sort of omniscience works, it's like giving nigh-omniscience for just being smart.
or

Well, it is the truth of the universe, whether real or metaphorical, coming into contact with it would imply such a level of intelligence. Of course, that is still pretty vague imo, but there is a reasoning.

But ok, ok it is reliant on the Ness being somewhere else while being in Magicant. But what if I'm gonna tell you more than this.
lady and gentlemen I present you, official Earthbound Guidebook. Specifically page 96, Magicant page:

And well, that statement alone ruins most of stuff blog relies to (besides the obvious as heck metaphors), since blog assumes Magicant exists as separate universe while the guidebook (and let me repeat that official guidebook, which Nintendo by themselves posted online) says pretty clearly that Magicant is nothing more but a world inside of Ness's head.

"But wait this is English guidebook and not Japanese"

Ok, find me Japanese one, post here and problem can be solved in theory. Besides most of the stuff English and Japanese version of Earthbound differ mostly in censure of some American products, such as monopoly or coca cola reference, of course to run out from potential lawsuits.

But I have not ended, here, we can see this being stated.

Which supports the guidebook. But to add more.

Here we can see that while Ness "was" in Magicant, he was sleeping. Which along with Mother 1 statement, along with official guidebook tells that Magicant was nothing more but a "mirage" a "world that exists only in your head" you could even say "dream", considering Ness and Maria were unconscious.

Magicant being imaginary in nature is incredibly straightforward honestly, so unless there's some evidence that overwriters this, and it better be damn solid evidence, I strongly agree.

And another worth to say thing, the Player stuff is also bad constructed. I think we should all remember that I am the player, You are the player, game asks our name, not someone's else made up being.

and

There's no certain being who plays these games, we are the ones who are playing these games.

This is not Undertale or Deltarune where there's something complex about player, since you are the player.

That all makes me want to either relook at all this stuff or just delete everything related to it.

I mean, it's obviously a fictional projection of the player, which as I understand is the way we treat this kind of stuff, typically, but it is definitely intended to be the player. But I'm not iron-solid on our rules on this meta stuff.

 

[Oleggator]

I'm going to preface this with the fact that while I love Earthbound, I haven't played it in over a year and when I did I definitely didn't with a battleboarding mindset.

It's ok, in previous thread there was agreement from people who even doesn't played Earthbound, so that's already something, ngl.

I can definitely agree with this. Isn't there a scene in Mother 3 where Lucas gets hit by lightning, anyway?

Actually, yeah, here. And he wasn't able to dodge thunder from Masked Man

Ice and fire don't really have a set in stone speed so this really doesn't mean anything.

Technically you can give speed for fire, iirc Dan's (from street fighter) running speed was calced with taking into consideration speed of fire. Ice though yes.

To be honest, does the light stuff qualify as SOL to begin with?

Well, they're stated as "dazzling light" but that's it though.

Looking into it, manned submarines vary from 35 tons to 48 thousand so that might be rough, especially with Earthbound's artstyle making the submarine look very small. The Yellow Submarine Beatles song is metaphorical in nature too so we can't use that.

I guess the best we could do is use like minimum as solid rating, something in-between as likely and high rating as possibly. Of course with that we're leaved to be unanswered how heavy was submarine, but theoretically still better than ignore feat at all.

I don't think these arguments are in themselves particularly valid, however, I think the range should be downgraded because being able to project lightning from the clouds doesn't mean you can cast spells that far, unless we're scaling all PSI to itself, in which case it should be at least tens of kilometers based on Paula speaking to Jeff while captive. But I don't think there's much evidence for that.

Yeah, I don't think we can actually scale all PK moves to that. Especially since Mother characters are not some snipers that can shoot literally from kilometers far. At least in a fighting system.

I mean, it's obviously a fictional projection of the player, which as I understand is the way we treat this kind of stuff, typically, but it is definitely intended to be the player. But I'm not iron-solid on our rules on this meta stuff.

Well, theoretically we usually give "player" profiles to actual avatars. For instance "Steve" from minecraft is viewed as The Player, due to various skins we can outfit in Minecraft. Or better yet, if look at every "The Player" profiles most commonly they're given to characters we play as who just do not have names yet(I believe Gregory from FNAF Security Breach could also be called as "The Player" if we didn't knew his name).

On Earthbound case however Players are not someone we play with, we play as Ness, as Lucas, it is us, by any intended means.

 

[Listentomyrhytm]

Personally, I agree with the TOTU stuff, and the player stuff. The other parts I am not sure about, but the arguments against them seem fine enough.

 

[Armorchompy]

Technically you can give speed for fire, iirc Dan's (from street fighter) running speed was calced with taking into consideration speed of fire.

That was the speed of an explosion, not that of fire itself.

Well, they're stated as "dazzling light" but that's it though.

That would not be enough.

I guess the best we could do is use like minimum as solid rating, something in-between as likely and high rating as possibly. Of course with that we're leaved to be unanswered how heavy was submarine, but theoretically still better than ignore feat at all.

I think the 35-ton one is a particularly small kind, it should be looked into more

 

[Oleggator]

That was the speed of an explosion, not that of fire itself.

That would not be enough.

I think the 35-ton one is a particularly small kind, it should be looked into more

I see.

For submarine note, I guess we could theoretically try to use exactly the type of submarine that can have 3 people inside. Kind of generic but probably this is the best we can do.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

That was the speed of an explosion, not that of fire itself.

That would not be enough.

I think the 35-ton one is a particularly small kind, it should be looked into more

Isn't it being stated as light pretty explicit?

 

[DaReaperMan]

I agree, these arguments make sense to me

 

[Armorchompy]

Isn't it being stated as light pretty explicit?

Being stated to be composed of light is just one requirement, you need to hit min 3 typically.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Being stated to be composed of light is just one requirement, you need to hit min 3 typically.

Huh, coulda swore being stated to be composed of light is enough. Anyway, doesn't it also travel in straight lines? A

 

[Oleggator]

Huh, coulda swore being stated to be composed of light is enough. Anyway, doesn't it also travel in straight lines? A

Well, technically if talking about this exactly, we don't know full context, like basically with most of the attacks in Earthbound series.

 

[Seol404]

Definitely agree with the cosmology stuff. Unsure about the speed stuff so I'll leave the members who are more knowledgeable on how these speed feats should be judged to decide that. Getting a calc for the sub would be ideal but might not be possible for reasons already discussed.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah I always found the upgrades to be very lax with how they got applied. These same arguments for the cosmology could literally be found in other franchises like Mario. A game directly calling out a Player doesn't inherently upgrade the cosmology at all. The reasonings definitely have to be worded better, if they even can be worded better. I believe it came from the fact a move is called "4D slip" and the Player is apparently some higher-dimensional entity? Though I dunno where that's stated or implied.

Anyways, the other ratings also don't make much sense and the verse definitely needs to be heavily evaluated for the issues stated in this thread. I'm kinda glad this got brought to light. Given how big the support was for this verse I was kinda scared to touch it myself.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Strym doesn't want to participate on the wiki anymore, but he's asked me to share these posts.

Speed:
Pk Thunder is actual lightning due to it being from Thunder Mite which is an actual cloud. And VBW standards allow Cloud-to-Earth thunderbolts to be actually MHS+. And saying that the other PK Attacks are immensely slower is unfounder, you have to to prove PK Thunder is faster. Pokémon here is the same as everything scales from Thunderbolt. About Rel+, I'd say more that nothing really told that Porky became stronger than before, nothing really pointed at such. And the whole SoL attack is based on blinding torches so...

LS:
Don't care much, but it's mostly because unknown model and inconsistent graphics. I put baseline Class M as placeholder, but you do you.

Range:
Above with speed. Downgrade Pokémon too or keep it accepted.

Cosmology:
ToTU being mentioned few times isn't an argument. It's described as a sentient being at the monkey cave, and this is enough. The statement at the Monkey Cave + the whole death screen are enough. The whole dialogues when Ness/Lucas take a coffee and talk with an "unknown entity" too. Also, how do you think Ness got the boost? Magicant stuff is fine, I concede on that. While the whole "but Ness didn't become the universe hurr durr", it's said that it overlaps, which means that he extends to all of it (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/overlapping). Plus there's the whole statement about Ness' fate becoming one with the universe'. Player stuff is easily debunked from the Dog possessed from the game designer and the interview with Itoi about Mother 3, which blatantly leads to a world which programmed EarthBound reality as a game. Plus the Player IS a character, who do you think that was the one defeating Giygas and saving everyone's asses in Mother 3? Other than being explicitly mentioned in Mother 3 too (). Also about Nigh Omniscient stuff, it's implied that Ness was becoming all knowing as he was all of the universe.

And more info about Truth of the Universe was found here.

 

[Armorchompy]

"Pk Thunder is actual lightning due to it being from Thunder Mite which is an actual cloud"

I mean, the point of contention is not just the validity of the electricity, it's also putting it into question whether the characters are really dodging it. And while it does make little sense under a logical standpoint just being light doesn't mean you're SoL, calc-wise.

"Downgrade Pokémon too or keep it accepted"

This isn't a Pokèmon CRT and for all I know Pokèmon has its own lore which separates that case so no that argument doesn't work.

"ToTU being mentioned few times isn't an argument. It's described as a sentient being at the monkey cave, and this is enough"

Could I have a link to this?

"The whole dialogues when Ness/Lucas take a coffee and talk with an "unknown entity" too"

Yes, clearly a drug trip is the best source of objective information. Also, the entity is unknown.

"Plus there's the whole statement about Ness' fate becoming one with the universe"

Addressed already.

 

[Oleggator]

Speed:
Pk Thunder is actual lightning due to it being from Thunder Mite which is an actual cloud. And VBW standards allow Cloud-to-Earth thunderbolts to be actually MHS+. And saying that the other PK Attacks are immensely slower is unfounder, you have to to prove PK Thunder is faster. Pokémon here is the same as everything scales from Thunderbolt. About Rel+, I'd say more that nothing really told that Porky became stronger than before, nothing really pointed at such. And the whole SoL attack is based on blinding torches so...

LS:
Don't care much, but it's mostly because unknown model and inconsistent graphics. I put baseline Class M as placeholder, but you do you.

Range:
Above with speed. Downgrade Pokémon too or keep it accepted.

I don't really care about Pokemon, so if you really want that...
Anyway Pokemon stuff is something what left for Pokemon supporters, which I'm not a part of, which is not my problem. Gradually on this case, even if we assume that PK Thunder is well, actual thunder we also have to still remember the fact that PK Thunder is still was and will be a hit or miss move, which you can't avoid. As shown above Lucas, the other PK user, wasn't able to avoid electricity and thunder. In a battle against Thunder Mite we're fighting against cloud not thunder. Like, let's even assume, hypothetically Thunder Mite had all this time thunder hitting the ground like he supposedly doing in his jpg sprite, I see no way we can scale this since again, we're fighting against cloud, not against thunder.

About range, we're assuming characters can actually be snipers and attack from that distance. Of course we can leave an assumption for PK Thunder, Pepa Madrigal for instance also has thunderclouds being able to reach Kilometers. Or Paula's telepathy. But scaling other PK attacks to this also does not seems as a way to do so. Since, again with that we're daring to assume that character can just shoot their attacks from long distance, which is wrong, considering fighting system of Earthbound. Different PK moves works differently after all.

Cosmology:
ToTU being mentioned few times isn't an argument. It's described as a sentient being at the monkey cave, and this is enough. The statement at the Monkey Cave + the whole death screen are enough. The whole dialogues when Ness/Lucas take a coffee and talk with an "unknown entity" too. Also, how do you think Ness got the boost? Magicant stuff is fine, I concede on that. While the whole "but Ness didn't become the universe hurr durr", it's said that it overlaps, which means that he extends to all of it (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/overlapping). Plus there's the whole statement about Ness' fate becoming one with the universe'.

With statements that easily can be assumed to be a metaphors. Like, seriously all of this are a simple metaphors which just taken too literal as said previously. Even here, there's try to use a one word, literal from it's meaning.

The destiny of the universe overlapping with Ness' simply means that if Ness fails, the universe is doomed, for example. Touching the truth of the universe just means you're coming into contact with that ultimate intelligence, not that it's an actual, "tangible" entity. And the game over screen is... literally nothing. It's a game over screen with a cute little theme to it.

That's all just means that Ness have a big responsibility on his hands since if he fails, people will be doomed.

Player stuff is easily debunked from the Dog possessed from the game designer and the interview with Itoi about Mother 3, which blatantly leads to a world which programmed EarthBound reality as a game.

Oh you mean that interview where he said, that he'll die if dark dragon purpose will be succeeded.
Something, something, Reality - Fiction interaction. In other words you can't pull out Popeye right here and say Ness>Itoi.

Plus the Player IS a character, who do you think that was the one defeating Giygas and saving everyone's asses in Mother 3? Other than being explicitly mentioned in Mother 3 too (). Also about Nigh Omniscient stuff, it's implied that Ness was becoming all knowing as he was all of the universe.

Us, it, was, us. Speaking of which video also metaphorically refers to us in a face of the player. As well as game still, asks us our name.
Which is written by us. We are the player since we are playing this game, isn't it that simple? It is intended interaction of me and you with the game, like repeating what Armor said.

Earthbound is an artistic piece of media, and interpreting everything in it as super-literal is doing it a disservice, especially when it's never even implied to be. It's no different from any other RPG's "fate is with you young hero".

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ah, **** it. You know what. I said I don't want to be involved anymore but I'll make an exception here, given what I said above wasn't enough.

Don't expect me to be as active as I was, as, I repeat, this is an exception.

I mean, the point of contention is not just the validity of the electricity, it's also putting it into question whether the characters are really dodging it. And while it does make little sense under a logical standpoint just being light doesn't mean you're SoL, calc-wise.

I mean, assuming all the PK are somehow immensely slower is iffy asf, given how they're potrayed.

About SoL thing, issue here is that, you know, it has a blinding effect, and can be dodged, meaning is not an omnidirectional thing like Pk Flash, which I disagree with it being used for this reason. It makes sense for it being SoL, given what it references to.

This isn't a Pokèmon CRT and for all I know Pokèmon has its own lore which separates that case so no that argument doesn't work.

Context is the same. Both are attacks which are based as irl lightning. EB via Cloud Mite and Pokémon via Move Animation which shows an actual cloud.

Could I have a link to this?

Yes, clearly a drug trip is the best source of objective information.

Link is here. About the second, this whole thing (read it really carefully) explains really well.

Addressed already.

Your "but if Ness dies the universe is screwed" doesn't make sense at all. It's literally said when every part of him will become one with every part of the universe, so I don't even think you've read this blog, or even the links.

Player stuff is honestly ridiculous as unlike ""Regular"" 4th wall stuff, the Player here is references as an actual entity in both Mother 2 and 3, which helped a whole lot in both the game endings and was fundamental for the plot. And the statements from both Ruffini and Itoi himself about Dark Dragon lead to a world where Earthbound is viewed as just a programmed game. It can't be just a 4th wall break as The Player is clearly a character separated from Ness and was actually the one killing off Giygas, if you didn't notice it already.

Regardless I don't even care, if you want to downgrade it at least do with stuff that doesn't blatanltly ignore plot points.

With statements that easily can be assumed to be a metaphors. Like, seriously all of this are a simple metaphors which just taken too literal as said previously. Even here, there's try to use a one word, literal from it's meaning.

Metaphors which are consistent lol. You can't just dismiss all of that as "methaphor" just because. It's not different from discrediting all the feats of a characters because "it's wank".

Oh you mean that interview where he said, that he'll die if dark dragon purpose will be succeeded.
Something, something, Reality - Fiction interaction. In other words you can't pull out Popeye right here and say Ness>Itoi.

This doesn't make sense. Popeye case is just a gag, Dark Dragon isn't as it was literally the whole point of taking the needles.

Us, it, was, us. Speaking of which video also metaphorically refers to us in a face of the player. As well as game still, asks us our name.
Which is written by us. We are the player since we are playing this game, isn't it that simple? It is intended interaction of me and you with the game, like repeating what Armor said.

It's still a separate character who has its own feats and lores, aka still deserves a profile. Like, we have literally this, which is almost the same for instance.

This CRT is just the result of not looking in-depht in the game, looking at it without being serious at it. If you delete the verse, I couldn't care less, but if you downgrade it, use actual arguments lol.

 

[Arceus0x]

i'll just pop in for a moment to say that Pokemon has shown cases where attacks such as thunder appear from clouds and more. Electricity in pokemon despite being explosive pretty much works like normal electricity so it would scale to the speed and the range.
I just needed to guard my fave verse real quick

 

[StrymULTRA]

i'll just pop in for a moment to say that Pokemon has shown cases where attacks such as thunder appear from clouds and more. Electricity in pokemon despite being explosive pretty much works like normal electricity so it would scale to the speed and the range.
I just needed to guard my fave verse real quick

I mean, I brought up Pokémon because it has the same case as Earthbound one. I never wanted to downgrade it lol.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Oh and btw, in Mother 1 is explicitly said that the Franklin Badge was made through experiments with lightnings, meaning that Pk Thunder IS a Thunder, given Franking Badge works just fine with it.

 

[Oleggator]

I mean, assuming all the PK are somehow immensely slower is iffy asf, given how they're potrayed.

And they're portrayed different from each other. Treating every ability as PK Thunder will be very meh option.

Your "but if Ness dies the universe is screwed" doesn't make sense at all. It's literally said when every part of him will become one with every part of the universe, so I don't even think you've read this blog, or even the links.

Which is so blatant metaphor that it is dumb that people have previously took it seriously.

Player stuff is honestly ridiculous as unlike ""Regular"" 4th wall stuff, the Player here is references as an actual entity in both Mother 2 and 3, which helped a whole lot in both the game endings and was fundamental for the plot. And the statements from both Ruffini and Itoi himself about Dark Dragon lead to a world where Earthbound is viewed as just a programmed game. It can't be just a 4th wall break as The Player is clearly a character separated from Ness and was actually the one killing off Giygas, if you didn't notice it already.

Of course, because if normal 4-th wall break will be talking with a viewer, this however just has more "4-th wall breaks" here. There's even some shit like, mole referring to the TV-screen, to us as another world, let alone Tony referring to us as the person who holds this controller.

Yeah, even the dragon. If that were the conclusion, then even the creator himself would no longer be alive, so there was no way that I could write that... Not if it were to be the end of me as well. There's no way I could have an ending like that. It's nothing more than simple philosophy.

Even here Itoi refers to literally himself as creator and not to some sentient being, you're implying.

Regardless I don't even care, if you want to downgrade it at least do with stuff that doesn't blatanltly ignore plot points.

Metaphors which are consistent lol. You can't just dismiss all of that as "methaphor" just because. It's not different from discrediting all the feats of a characters because "it's wank".

I can if they're do not give a sense at all rather than being flowery language. It's not even a feats, it's random statements which were taken literally.

This doesn't make sense. Popeye case is just a gag, Dark Dragon isn't as it was literally the whole point of taking the needles.

It's still a separate character who has its own feats and lores, aka still deserves a profile. Like, we have literally this, which is almost the same for instance.

Referring to other verses do not help on this case, like again, it is several times refers and talks directly to us. While we, are playing the game.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And they're portrayed different from each other. Treating every ability as PK Thunder will be very meh option.

Ok, but they're still Psychic Powers. Treating them as different when in fight they have same properties on a fundamental level is illogical.

Which is so blatant metaphor that it is dumb that people have previously took it seriously.

Metaphor to what? It's clear what it's said, its whole boost after Magicant is the point of that, it's the point of why he needed to reach each of the 8 spots.

Of course, because if normal 4-th wall break will be talking with a viewer, this however just has more "4-th wall breaks" here. There's even some shit like, mole referring to the TV-screen, to us as another world, let alone Tony referring to us as the person who holds this controller.

So? The Player is still the character which represents us, it's not literally us, just the game's potrayal. You can't just ignore its existence when plot relies on that.

Even here Itoi refers to literally himself as creator and not to some sentient being, you're implying.

This is dumb. In the interview he talks like he's the one creating the game, supporting Ruffini's claims.

Referring to other verses do not help on this case, like again, it is several times refers and talks directly to us. While we, are playing the game.

You're the one bringing Popeye for one. Second, let me take a verse which I'm actually knowledgable on, DDLC. DDLC's "Real World" isn't literally our world, but just a fictional interpreation of ours. The player in DDLC isn't literally us, but just a representation of ours, unless you think we're dudes who literally work at MES, studying DDLC for a living, using the MC to interact with the game world. Mother is the same case, where The Player uses the protagonists to interact with the game, and acts from itself when the characters can't do it alone.

VileShadows' post is really clear about it, I dunno how you could miss that at all.

 

[Armorchompy]

Ok, but they're still Psychic Powers. Treating them as different when in fight they have same properties on a fundamental level is illogical.

Proof of this? It's not something you just assume.

Metaphor to what? It's clear what it's said, its whole boost after Magicant is the point of that, it's the point of why he needed to reach each of the 8 spots.

It's like, extremely common philosophy shit, becoming one with the universe, it's not literal.

I mean, assuming all the PK are somehow immensely slower is iffy asf, given how they're potrayed.

Yeah but, the point of contention is also that they aren't being dodged.

Context is the same. Both are attacks which are based as irl lightning. EB via Cloud Mite and Pokémon via Move Animation which shows an actual cloud.

Don't care, different verse

Link is here. About the second, this whole thing (read it really carefully) explains really well.

I did. I see very little actual evidence, and a lot of taking things too literally.

I don't even think you've read this blog, or even the links.

Then I recommend you to think otherwise.

Metaphors which are consistent lol. You can't just dismiss all of that as "methaphor" just because.

This is like saying that because christianity is portrayed "consistently" that's enough proof that it's real in that work of fiction.

It's still a separate character who has its own feats and lores, aka still deserves a profile. Like, we have literally this, which is almost the same for instance.

Once again, don't bring up different verses. Although I personally think a profile for the player is fine.

This CRT is just the result of not looking in-depht in the game

Refrain from making such assumptions. It's a bad look, and doesn't further the debate in any way.

If you delete the verse, I couldn't care less

Well I would

 

[StrymULTRA]

Proof of this? It's not something you just assume.

They're in the same set of abilities, and are the same in nature as they're Psychic Powers. That's the easiest interpreation.

It's like, extremely common philosophy shit, becoming one with the universe, it's not literal.

You're the one needing it to be not literal. Tell this to characters like Madoka Kaname who has never directly showcased Omnipresence in visuals but has clear statements of such. Ness is literally the same here, so a "but we still see him moving as a regular boy" is not a counter at all.

Don't care, different verse

Then it'd be double standards and you know that's not going well.

I did. I see very little actual evidence, and a lot of taking things too literally.

Disprove them then, It's showing actual evidence and explains a lot of context. You can't just say that all of them are invalid because "it's metaphor" and not elaborating what the actual ****.

 

[Chariot190]

Lurking, though for what it's worth, The Player and TOTU definitely do come off as actual things imo, though I'm not really the best when it comes to that, I'm not exactly [email protected].

But for The Player, The Player is "us", but also not really? Like he's not LITERALLY us, it's like an avatar, a self insert, whatever you wanna call it, kinda like Link back before he became a full fledged character, role play shit basically.

Like if I had to compare, it's like Duck Hunt from Smash, ya got the duck, the dog, and then a 3rd entity (The Player), who does the shooty shit, but despite being what is meant to be "us" or "The Player", it's also an entity within that canon and the verse? If that makes any sense? Like yeah he's us but it's an "us" that is its own character that exists in lore and stuff? Idk, Nintendo actually does this shit a lot now that I think about it. Some higher power that is meant to be us, the player, effecting the world of that game, but said player dude is still apart of the verse's context/lore/whatever. It's kinda meta but he do be a thing in Mother, idk it's kinda hard to convey what I mean?
Either way I think The Player is definitely a thing despite being you, all it really is is a self insert.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I agree with Strym, that initially trying to disprove something by calling it a metaphor without actual counter-evidence to an easier interpretation, is not really going against the argument.

And regarding Magicant’s, I don’t think that it being a mental world would necessarily disprove the existence of the world itself? Especially if this is under the Schrödinger’s cat thought experiment where literally your subjective thoughts hold a physical truth in reality.

 

[Armorchompy]

They're in the same set of abilities, and are the same in nature as they're Psychic Powers. That's the easiest interpreation.

I don't see how "can shoot thunder with psychic powers" immediately implies that "can shoot fire with psychic powers" can be done at a similar range when they are different techniques.

Tell this to characters like Madoka Kaname who has never directly showcased Omnipresence but has clear statements of such.

Stop bringing up different verses, I don't care or know about them.

Ness is literally the same here, so a "but we still see him moving as a regular boy" is not a counter at all.

Says you, I think it makes a lot of sense. Especially when his soul can also be put inside a robot and his body cannot move after it's removed, which is a really weird distinction for the entirety of the universe to make. Especially when he can also be hurt by conventional attacks, and heal with conventional items, and is clearly portrayed as being on the same level as the rest of the party through gameplay (when Earthbound can very easily make allies invincible).

Then it'd be double standards and you know well that's not going well.

Don't care, different context, this is an Earthbound CRT, not a Pokèmon one.

Disprove them then, It's showing actual evidence and explains a lot of context. You can't just say that all of them are invalid because "it's metaphor" and not elaborating what the actual ****.

"Actual evidence" is a couple of dudes and their philosophical preachings not too dissimilar from IRL stuff of the same sort. Also, a most of it is about the prophecy, which is not directly related to TOTU nor does it require its existence to exist, allusions to TOTU, which aren't worth much on their own, or pretending some unrelated gags or story beats are actually unbreakable evidence of fatehax. How is Ness' courage allowing him to prevail in a fight evidence of anything? Actually, the whole fact that we just assume fatehax exists without anything even directly hinting at it, just based on a couple convenient things happening in what is essentially a typical RPG plot, is shameful.

 

[Armorchompy]

For the record I think the Player is legit, I do think they are an entity in the story of Earthbound and Mother 3.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't see how "can shoot thunder with psychic powers" immediately implies that "can shoot fire with psychic powers" can be done at a similar range when they are different techniques.

Both are psychic based, they're literally under the same power system, so make 2+2.

Stop bringing up different verses, I don't care or know about them.
Says you, I think it makes a lot of sense. Especially when his soul can also be put inside a robot and his body cannot move after it's removed, which is a really weird distinction for the entirety of the universe to make. Especially when he can also be hurt by conventional attacks, and heal with conventional items, and is clearly portrayed as being on the same level as the rest of the party through gameplay (when Earthbound can very easily make allies invincible).

Ergo double standard. Especially when a similar case is in Madoka Magica itself when the God tiers showing in the universe are regular 3D humans, despite their True Forms being omnipresent. If we accept it for PMMM, or even Pokémon, why shouldn't we for EarthBound?

Don't care, different context, this is an Earthbound CRT, not a Pokèmon one.

Nice double standards again. You can't ignore a verse rating when another one is based on the same rating for the same reason.

"Actual evidence" is a couple of dudes and their philosophical preachings not too dissimilar from IRL stuff of the same sort. Also, a most of it is about the prophecy, which is not directly related to TOTU nor does it require its existence to exist, allusions to TOTU, which aren't worth much on their own, or pretending some unrelated gags or story beats are actually unbreakable evidence of fatehax. How is Ness' courage allowing him to prevail in a fight evidence of anything?

• Ignoring all the parts where "something" talks to Ness, with said things being accurate (and coffee things happened too, so dismissing it as a drug moment is literally dishonest as hell), which is the same "something" speaking to Ness and co at death.
• Ignores the part where ToTU is described as a thing that speaks to the universes known to man.
• Ignores the whole part about Giygas being defeated and the 99 to 1 chanches of winning.

Dude, stop, you're blatantly ignoring lots of things that happened just for your own argument.

 

[Armorchompy]

Both are psychic based, they're literally under the same power system, so make 2+2.

2 + 2 = Two different techniques have identical range despite functioning in different ways and explicitly being used to hit targets in different areas of effect?

Ergo double standard.

Ergo I don't care this is an Earthbound CRT.

Especially when a similar case is in Madoka Magica itself when the God tiers showing in the universe are regular 3D humans, despite their True Forms being omnipresent. If we accept it for PMMM, or even Pokémon, why shouldn't we for EarthBound?

Literally not even a single argument was brought up in this sentence. Especially when I've provided actual arguments against the Ness we see being just an avatar.

Nice double standards again. You can't ignore a verse rating when another one is based on the same rating for the same reason.

I can, because "the same reason" is a gross oversimplification of different stories with different context and portrayal. If you can't debate without bringing up other verses then don't at all, I'm going to ignore this type of argument from now on.

Ignoring all the parts where "something" talks to Ness, with said things being accurate (and coffee things happened too, so dismissing it as a drug moment is literally dishonest as hell), which is the same "something" speaking to Ness and co at death.
Ignores the part where ToTU is described as a thing that speaks to the universes known to man.

I recognize that clearly something supernatural is happening in the coffee case, but just because getting brief events of cosmic awareness is something that can be achieved in Earthbound canon, I don't believe that that is evidence that TOTU is an actual "tangible", thinking being that consciously chooses how to balance the fate of the world.

Ignores the whole part about Giygas being defeated and the 99 to 1 chanches of winning.

Yeah so what? They pulled off something unlikely. That's not evidence for fatehax. Unlikely shit happens all the time.

 

[Shmooply]

just want to rear my head in and say that a character beating a being that they had a 99.99% chance to lose to is probability manip and not fate manip

 

[StrymULTRA]

2 + 2 = Two different techniques have identical range despite functioning in different ways and explicitly being used to hit targets in different areas of effect?

Nothing says they're different in speed, given that in fight they're used as the same, and not an attack faster than the rest lol.

Ergo I don't care this is an Earthbound CRT.

Literally not even a single argument was brought up in this sentence. Especially when I've provided actual arguments against the Ness we see being just an avatar.

"actual arguments". You've just spammed the whole metaphor excuse when other verses are accepted to be such. I bring them as I actually know the context around them to being able to compare to EarthBound's, unlike you, who just excludes it despite it's clear how we manage similar shit all the time.

I can, because "the same reason" is a gross oversimplification of different stories with different context and portrayal. If you can't debate without bringing up other verses then don't at all, I'm going to ignore this type of argument from now on.

Thank you for saying you ignore how this very wiki treats omnipresent characters.

I recognize that clearly something supernatural is happening in the coffee case, but just because getting brief events of cosmic awareness is something that can be achieved in Earthbound canon, I don't believe that that is evidence that TOTU is an actual "tangible", thinking being that consciously chooses how to balance the fate of the world.

Awareness from who? It's said that is a being that speaks to the universes, who else should lmfao? And you "thinking" is not when all you did was dismissing it as "lol metaphor" is not a counter lol.

 

[Armorchompy]

Nothing says they're different in speed, given that in fight they're used as the same, and not an attack faster than the rest lol.

... So you're saying that natural cloud to ground lightning is moving at light speed? Anyway that is clearly not the case as characters are able of dodging some PSI/PK moves, but not others. "They're used the same" is also just blatantly not correct.

"actual arguments". You've just spammed the whole metaphor excuse when other verses are accepted to be such.

Read the paragraph again. I've pointed out several things that don't have anything to do with that.

I bring them as I actually know the context around them to being able to compare to EarthBound's

I don't care, if they're the same then you don't need to bring them up and you can instead use the same arguments that were used for them in favor of Earthbound. If you can't, then that means they aren't. Regardless, "This is ok because this other verse you know literally nothing of has it accepted and it's the same thing trust me" is just not how debating works.

unlike you, who just excludes it despite it's clear how we manage similar shit all the time.
Thank you for saying you ignore how this very wiki treats omnipresent characters.

As I said before, I will ignore this.

Awareness from who? It's said that is a being that speaks to the universes, who else should lmfao?

"Speaks to the universes" means that people come into contact with it have this sort of awareness. I'm not disputing the existence of the truth of the universe, I'm disputing that it's a "thinking" being that actively controls the fate of the story.

And you "thinking" is not when all you did was dismissing it as "lol metaphor" is not a counter lol.

Is not what? Regardless, I can't prove something is not real when the opposite would have to be proved.

 

[Oleggator]

Ok, but they're still Psychic Powers. Treating them as different when in fight they have same properties on a fundamental level is illogical.

Except they does have different properties. PK Thunder and PK Fire are used when you're against several opponents (especially with PK Thunder case to have a higher chance to make a hit), while something like PK Freeze is used as against a single opponent. Psychic powers have different power set and damage, like there's power system on how each Psychic power will work out, not without a reason.

Metaphor to what? It's clear what it's said, its whole boost after Magicant is the point of that, it's the point of why he needed to reach each of the 8 spots.

Except it is not Magicant what boosted Ness, even using same video where he "gained" that buff, it was not stated that Ness absorbed Magicant, it was stated that Ness absorbed the power of the land and only later to be stated that Magicant was gone, it even was stated that "soon magicant will be no more".

So? The Player is still the character which represents us, it's not literally us, just the game's potrayal. You can't just ignore its existence when plot relies on that.

Except it is us. You can't ignore all the reference to exactly us and not literally separate beings, when everything refers to that.

This is dumb. In the interview he talks like he's the one creating the game, supporting Ruffini's claims..

See, you even said that, it's not "Itoi avatar" which is somewhere in Earthbound, it is literally Itoi. And it is literally us, playing the game.

You're the one bringing Popeye for one. Second, let me take a verse which I'm actually knowledgable on, DDLC. DDLC's "Real World" isn't literally our world, but just a fictional interpreation of ours. The player in DDLC isn't literally us, but just a representation of ours, unless you think we're dudes who literally work at MES, studying DDLC for a living, using the MC to interact with the game world. Mother is the same case, where The Player uses the protagonists to interact with the game, and acts from itself when the characters can't do it alone.

VileShadows' post is really clear about it, I dunno how you could miss that at all.

Like Minecraft, like Wizard 101, like most of Player's profiles it's a character who does not has a name. There however, it is not separate nameless being we play as, it literally is us. Next to that is saying that we have not played Earthbound, but it was separate beings.

But alright with the player, as long as he'll be separated from all of Earthbound it is maybe fine, unlike now when it tries scale Ness and Giygas who can't interact with it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

... So you're saying that natural cloud to ground lightning is moving at light speed? Anyway that is clearly not the case as characters are able of dodging some PSI/PK moves, but not others. "They're used the same" is also just blatantly not correct.

You're talking about comparison between Pk Flash and Lightning? That might make sense.

I don't care, if they're the same then you don't need to bring them up and you can instead use the same arguments that were used for them in favor of Earthbound. If you can't, then that means they aren't. Regardless, "This is ok because this other verse you know literally nothing of has it accepted and it's the same thing trust me" is just not how debating works.

Okay. I've already explained the case with Madoka. She's stated to be everywhere and everywhen, but the scene where that happens she's still a physical body still interacting with Homura, who at the time as still a 3D human, other than her whole cutscenes in Magia Record still showing her as like just Planet sized, and she got this state of existence after becoming a concept. Same with Homura Akemi herself in Akuma form, she's the same in existence as Madoka yet she's never shown visually as a literal sentient multiverse. Yet they're accepted as omnipresent beings due to statements about them being an existence that is everywhere and everywhen. Same is about Ness, don't you think?

"Speaks to the universes" means that people come into contact with it have this sort of awareness. I'm not disputing the existence of the truth of the universe, I'm disputing that it's a "thinking" being that actively controls the fate of the story.

It talks like it does it actively. It happened in the prehistoric village, where it uses a rock to do so, as it's still an Higher D being that needs something to interact like the Player does, as you said. And it's not that Ness tried to get a cosmic awareness when he drank the coffee, it came from itself.

Is not what? Regardless, I can't prove something is not real when the opposite would have to be proved.

VileShadows already did.

Except it is not Magicant what boosted Ness, even using same video where he "gained" that buff, it was not stated that Ness absorbed Magicant, it was stated that Ness absorbed the power of the land and only later to be stated that Magicant was gone, it even was stated that "soon magicant will be no more".

The Power of the Land is actually something like Dark Dragon itself, as Dark Dragon is the power of the Earth itself in Mother 3, so I don't see how this dismisses such.

See, you even said that, it's not "Itoi avatar" which is somewhere in Earthbound, it is literally Itoi. And it is literally us, playing the game.

Stop twisting my mouth. Even the Reality Fiction page you uses said that authors in their own writings are not literally them but just a character representing them.

For instance, while The Lord of Nightmares beat her writer with a shovel, said "writer" was still a fictional character, and in no way, shape or form can LoN affect real people, or actually defeat her real world writer.

Like Minecraft, like Wizard 101, like most of Player's profiles it's a character who does not has a name. There however, it is not separate nameless being we play as, it literally is us. Next to that is saying that we have not played Earthbound, but it was separate beings.

Tell that to DDLC or Stellaris, where the Player is blatantly a different being from the character they're controlling too.

But alright with the player, as long as he'll be separated from all of Earthbound it is maybe fine, unlike now when it tries scale Ness and Giygas who can't interact with it.

Whole point is Giygas downscaling as it didn't get immediately killed from them.

But if you want to downgrade their range to just Low 2-C, then go ahead, as it can be explained as just lack of AoE.

 

[Armorchompy]

You're talking about comparison between Pk Flash and Lightning? That might make sense.

Among other things yeah

other than her whole cutscenes in Magia Record still showing her as like just Planet sized, and she got this state of existence after becoming a concept

This is clearly a case of her being an avatar or something like that, but Ness has antifeats that imply that not being the case. Plus her statements seem to be waaaay more straightforward and unambiguous.

Same is about Ness, don't you think?

Nope.

It talks like it does it actively. It happened in the prehistoric village, where it uses a rock to do so

Is there any evidence that the rock isn't just sentient on its own? Don't remember that part well.

Also I should point out that the rock points out that Ness might fail, which completely debunks fatehax in itself. After all "If you do not fail" is a pretty silly thing to say when you are, allegedly, forcefully rewriting every failure out of existence.

VileShadows already did.

And that "proof" is not valid, VileShadow's blog has several faulty examples to it and generally draws more conclusions that I think is fair to, especially regarding the Ness and fate stuff. I could buy the TOTU stuff on its own, but definitely not that.

 

[Oleggator]

Okay. I've already explained the case with Madoka. She's stated to be everywhere and everywhen, but the scene where that happens she's still a physical body still interacting with Homura, who at the time as still a 3D human, other than her whole cutscenes in Magia Record still showing her as like just Planet sized, and she got this state of existence after becoming a concept. Same with Homura Akemi herself in Akuma form, she's the same in existence as Madoka yet she's never shown visually as a literal sentient multiverse. Yet they're accepted as omnipresent beings due to statements about them being an existence that is everywhere and everywhen. Same is about Ness, don't you think?

Go then downgrade Madoka if you think, that downgrading Ness means that.

It talks like it does it actively. It happened in the prehistoric village, where it uses a rock to do so, as it's still an Higher D being that needs something to interact like the Player does, as you said. And it's not that Ness tried to get a cosmic awareness when he drank the coffee, it came from itself.

So you're assuming this is not just talking rock, which is well, really common in Earthbound, but that same ToTU being, despite not being stated to be said being.

The Power of the Land is actually something like Dark Dragon itself, as Dark Dragon is the power of the Earth itself in Mother 3, so I don't see how this dismisses such.

Oh yeah, which definitely means that we can equalize not same stuff to each other through vague statements.

Stop twisting my mouth. Even the Reality Fiction page you uses said that authors in their own writings are not literally them but just a character representing them.

And there's no Itoi in Mother 3, get it?

Tell that to DDLC or Stellaris, where the Player is blatantly a different being from the character they're controlling too.

You gonna tell that to them then, don't care for DDLC neither for Stellaris, if instead of augmenting you're using "other verses do that too, why not do same with them?" logic, then go ahead and do that with said verses, my stance stands as previous, we are the one who are playing the games, nothing extremely complex.

Whole point is Giygas downscaling as it didn't get immediately killed from them.

But if you want to downgrade their range to just Low 2-C, then go ahead, as it can be explained as just lack of AoE.

I am not immediately got killed by a gun, apparently that means I am street level now, or some character stayed alive for a bit after something way more powerful than him damaged him, he definitely scales.

If even assuming all this stuff, Giygas literally was heavily damaged even before "player" started to pray. Pray for Giygas is technically like Kryptonite for Superman.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is clearly a case of her being an avatar or something like that, but Ness has antifeats that imply that not being the case. Plus her statements seem to be waaaay more straightforward and unambiguous.

If by Anti Feats you mean the whole the time machine thing, you're wrong. Because is said that Ness will become everything in the universe from absorbing the power of the Earth, and needed said boost to fight Giygas, who's blatantly omnipresent. And no, nothing in these scenes say that she's using an avatar. Ness is the same, it's clearly stated that in order to become one with the universe is needed to take the power of the Earth, which he did.

Is there any evidence that the rock isn't just sentient on its own? Don't remember that part well.

Also I should point out that the rock points out that Ness might fail, which completely debunks fatehax in itself. After all "If you do not fail" is a pretty silly thing to say when you are, allegedly, forcefully rewriting every failure out of existence.

That's not said in the literal version. It's said instead Defeating Gyiyg without doing so will be impossible, and if you see the link, is said the whole "becoming the universe" as a requirement to being able to fight Giygas.

And that "proof" is not valid, VileShadow's blog has several faulty examples to it and generally draws more conclusions that I think is fair to, especially regarding the Ness and fate stuff. I could buy the TOTU stuff on its own, but definitely not that.

I don't even think the Fate Hax is offensive, just a defensive one like EoH Jotaro's. but the stuff leading at ToTU being the one speaking to Ness at the coffee, matching the previous claim of it speaking to the universes, is more than clear.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Go then downgrade Madoka if you think, that downgrading Ness means that.

Bruh.

So you're assuming this is not just talking rock, which is well, really common in Earthbound, but that same ToTU being, despite not being stated to be said being.

A talking rock can't know all of a sudden all that shit about Giygas lol.

Oh yeah, which definitely means that we can equalize not same stuff to each other through vague statements.

I mean, Ness' feats proved that.

And there's no Itoi in Mother 3, get it?

I don't see what's the point. Itoi is a character in Mother 3 like the Player is, Player's world is explicitly mentioned at the ending of the game. Same in Mother 2, where Paula's pray "reached" them.

I am not immediately got killed by a gun, apparently that means I am street level now, or some character stayed alive for a bit after something way more powerful than him damaged him, he definitely scales.

If even assuming all this stuff, Giygas literally was heavily damaged even before "player" started to pray. Pray for Giygas is technically like Kryptonite for Superman.

You shoot your own foot now as you just said that Giygas survived to the Player even after being weakened, meaning that without the previous prayers Giygas would have withstand much more hits from the Player.