Earthbound: The War against Truth of the Universe (Also known as, massive downgrades)

[Ultima_Reality]

Prefacing this by saying that I am not exsctly knowledgeable on the verse, so, I am going purely off of the arguments I've seen on this thread, and what I've seen of the evidence myself. Feel free to correct me about whatever.

Anyway, I don't really understand why deleting the Truth of the Universe is necessary? Armor, at least, seemed to actually agree with it being an actual entity, and as far as I see that was never disputed in this discussion. One of the scans also seems to refer to it as an "ultimate intelligence" which you come in contact with through the Sea of Eden, so I think it is fairly clearly presented as a being, and I don't necessarily think vagueness prevents a profile from being made if something is of importance to a verse's cosmology.

Most of the arguments relating to Ness allegedly unifying with the universe also seemed odd to me because most of them involve dismissing the description as a metaphor without really bothering to explain what it is a metaphor for, to begin with. I understand saying "The moment when your destiny becomes one with the destiny of the universe… is close at hand" is metaphorical for Ness' failure being potentially able to result in the universe being destroyed, but "The time will come when every part of you will become one with every part of the universe" is pretty damn explicit, and the text itself seems to bring that up again with the "These are spots that give you power and draw out “every part” of you."

As for the Player: I understand the argument being made here, but our standards when it came to this always leaned more in the direction of treating plot-relevant Fourth Wall Interactions as existing only relative to the context of the verse. That is, we obviously don't consider there to be any actual interplay between a fictional setting and our world, even if that was the effect intended by the author for the sake of story immersion. This goes double for this case, since as far as I see, the Player actually has direct interaction with the characters (Their prayers being what took Giygas down)

 

[Jibz]

Prefacing this by saying that I am not exsctly knowledgeable on the verse, so, I am going purely off of the arguments I've seen on this thread, and what I've seen of the evidence myself. Feel free to correct me about whatever.

Anyway, I don't really understand why deleting the Truth of the Universe is necessary? Armor, at least, seemed to actually agree with it being an actual entity, and as far as I see that was never disputed in this discussion. One of the scans also seems to refer to it as an "ultimate intelligence" which you come in contact with through the Sea of Eden, so I think it is fairly clearly presented as a being, and I don't necessarily think vagueness prevents a profile from being made if something is of importance to a verse's cosmology.

Most of the arguments relating to Ness allegedly unifying with the universe also seemed odd to me because most of them involve dismissing the description as a metaphor without really bothering to explain what it is a metaphor for, to begin with. I understand saying "The moment when your destiny becomes one with the destiny of the universe… is close at hand" is metaphorical for Ness' failure being potentially able to result in the universe being destroyed, but "The time will come when every part of you will become one with every part of the universe" is pretty damn explicit, and the text itself seems to bring that up again with the "These are spots that give you power and draw out “every part” of you."

As for the Player: I understand the argument being made here, but our standards when it came to this always leaned more in the direction of treating plot-relevant Fourth Wall Interactions as existing only relative to the context of the verse. That is, we obviously don't consider there to be any actual interplay between a fictional setting and our world, even if that was the effect intended by the author for the sake of story immersion. This goes double for this case, since as far as I see, the Player actually has direct interaction with the characters (Their prayers being what took Giygas down)

Isn't it the thing that spoke to the cast in Mother 2+ 3 (Well it's heavily implied to be). And there's the fact Talah Rama directly mentions TOTU by name. Making it sound like a sentient being.

I genuinely know zero about this verse, but just by viewing older threads conversing about this i always had the impression that it was indeed a real thing.

 

[Eficiente]

One of the scans also seems to refer to it as an "ultimate intelligence" which you come in contact with through the Sea of Eden

That could go as in information and perception to be given at those who go there rather than the Truth being said intelligence.

And there's the fact Talah Rama directly mentions TOTU by name. Making it sound like a sentient being.

While true, it can also not be taken at face value and take it in as the concept of destiny, predestination or the like.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That could go as in information and perception to be given at those who go there rather than the Truth being said intelligence.

Given that Truth is reffered as the being that speaks to the universes like in a wave-particle duality thing, and did so twice, this claims of yours is headcanon.

While true, it can also not be taken at face value and take it in as the concept of destiny, predestination or the like.

Which would completely ignore all the rest and all the points already brought up from @VileShadows.

 

[Jibz]

While true, it can also not be taken at face value and take it in as the concept of destiny, predestination or the like.

Assumptions that deviate from the most likely conclusion, is headcanon. An assumption has no basis in fact. It speaks, it's described as having intelligence and it actively converses with the main cast in the games. It. Is. Sentient.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with alot of what Ultima is saying.

Truth of the Universe is clearly an entity in the Earthbound Multiverse; it's a literally character that Ness spoke to in the Magicant. And while it is still an abstract entity, it's an existing entity none of the less. The other statements spoken by VileShadows a long time ago is also still unrefuted.

Ness literally "Transcending time and space to become one with the universe" is also still in our faces as a Low 2-C statement at bare minimum, but there are other details Strym said a long time ago. That being said, The Player, Truth of the Universe, and Dark Dragon should all easily be Low 1-C. Neutral on Ness or Giygas but still lean towards them keeping their Tier 1 ratings via more elaborate statements already went over a long time ago. And there being canon statements of their being an entire multiverse. And Truth of the Universe clearly being omniscient about the existence of all those universes still thought of Giygas as being powerful enough to "Destroy all existence".

 

[Oleggator]

Ah, screw it let's see and argue once more.

Anyway, I don't really understand why deleting the Truth of the Universe is necessary? Armor, at least, seemed to actually agree with it being an actual entity, and as far as I see that was never disputed in this discussion. One of the scans also seems to refer to it as an "ultimate intelligence" which you come in contact with through the Sea of Eden, so I think it is fairly clearly presented as a being, and I don't necessarily think vagueness prevents a profile from being made if something is of importance to a verse's cosmology.

Ok, so what are you trying to tell I guess is as well as what blog relies to Magicant. Which is not only in general community is viewed as a dream world and not real world. But also several times confirmed in the official material: Earthbound guidebook, Ness sleeping which clearly implies Magicant being dream (because guess what happens when you are sleeping), Mother 1 statement (but if you're so nitpicky and want to say it's localization which "definitely disinforms you" here's fan-translation version without censure, Earthbound Beginnings got and people may complain about) and Mother 1 official guidebook(aka Mother Encyclopedia through which Ninten actually became known as Ninten) statement...several statements actually.

Most of the arguments relating to Ness allegedly unifying with the universe also seemed odd to me because most of them involve dismissing the description as a metaphor without really bothering to explain what it is a metaphor for, to begin with. I understand saying "The moment when your destiny becomes one with the destiny of the universe… is close at hand" is metaphorical for Ness' failure being potentially able to result in the universe being destroyed, but "The time will come when every part of you will become one with every part of the universe" is pretty damn explicit, and the text itself seems to bring that up again with the "These are spots that give you power and draw out “every part” of you."

Even if you don't see stuff being metaphorical/philosophical somehow or as cultural/religious reference (which happens in Earthbound quite a lot, because Earthbound is an satirical game with, again, a lot of culture references. Even Itoi himself tends to talk more philosophical during discussions about Mother series). Even if you want to at least ignore quotation speech text uses, which clearly means stuff not being literal.
If you really want to bring this vague statement, there's at least one plot contradiction in Earthbound - needing to put his body in the robot. Think about it, you are omnipresent, as text tries to imply you are everywhere, if you are really in that state of being and if all what Ness has after Magicant is an "avatar" then why you need to worry about your body condition, which Dr. Andotus (the guy who also known for Earthbound guys and in current state of the verse on this wiki, as the guy who built an capsule with supposedly 5D dura and basically one of the smartest characters of the verse.) so worried about. It is literally and very blatantly contradicts to the plot, and not just some point of the plot, one of the most important one.

As for the Player: I understand the argument being made here, but our standards when it came to this always leaned more in the direction of treating plot-relevant Fourth Wall Interactions as existing only relative to the context of the verse. That is, we obviously don't consider there to be any actual interplay between a fictional setting and our world, even if that was the effect intended by the author for the sake of story immersion. This goes double for this case, since as far as I see, the Player actually has direct interaction with the characters (Their prayers being what took Giygas down)

Ok, let's play your game, let's assume that there's whole another world with other Nintendo, other developers, other me, ok. Based on yours implications we are assuming that real people's messages must be not from real person but "the other being". Keeping that in mind, we can also bring up some files which were found during Earthbound's localization where Japanese people were messaging American, if we want to take that in account as if it wasn't message from actual people but "in another world people" logic then the ones who were talking with Ness during coffee scene are developers/Itoi himself(especially if you consider the fact that Itoi stated that he wrote basically all text for Earthbound) instead of made up Truth of the universe which is based on "well it says smart words so it must be him".

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok this is becoming pathetic.

Ok, so what are you trying to tell I guess is as well as what blog relies to Magicant. Which is not only in general community is viewed as a dream world and not real world. But also several times confirmed in the official material: Earthbound guidebook, Ness sleeping which clearly implies Magicant being dream (because guess what happens when you are sleeping), Mother 1 statement (but if you're so nitpicky and want to say it's localization which "definitely disinforms you" here's fan-translation version without censure, Earthbound Beginnings got and people may complain about) and Mother 1 official guidebook(aka Mother Encyclopedia through which Ninten actually became known as Ninten) statement...several statements actually.

No one said that Magicants aren't Mental Worlds, but they're real asf, as items which you bring from Magican't don't disappear, meaning that they're real. And Magicants have shown to have stars and planets in the background.

Even if you don't see stuff being metaphorical/philosophical somehow or as cultural/religious reference (which happens in Earthbound quite a lot, because Earthbound is an satirical game with, again, a lot of culture references. Even Itoi himself tends to talk more philosophical during discussions about Mother series). Even if you want to at least ignore quotation speech text uses, which clearly means stuff not being literal.
If you really want to bring this vague statement, there's at least one plot contradiction in Earthbound - needing to put his body in the robot. Think about it, you are omnipresent, as text tries to imply you are everywhere, if you are really in that state of being and if all what Ness has after Magicant is an "avatar" then why you need to worry about your body condition, which Dr. Andotus (the guy who also known for Earthbound guys and in current state of the verse on this wiki, as the guy who built an capsule with supposedly 5D dura.) so worried about. It is literally and very blatantly contradicts to the plot, and not just some point of the plot, one of the most important one.

Maybe because Ness' consiousness was the one becoming the universe, and not the body. Giygas was said 300 times from anything to be an Universe buster, and Ness was said that it was the only to defeat him, and that he actually succeded in such. Only reason Ness' couldn't was because of Giygas being amped from Porky to avoid the prophecy from becoming true. Also the Dr Andonuts of Mother 2 timeline is different from the one of Mother 3, with different experience.

Ok, let's play your game, let's assume that there's whole another world with other Nintendo, other developers, other me, ok. Based on yours implications we are assuming that real people's messages must be not from real person but "the other being". Keeping that in mind, we can also bring up some files which were found during Earthbound's localization where Japanese people were messaging American, if we want to take that in account as if it wasn't message from actual people but "in another world people" logic then the ones who were talking with Ness during coffee scene are developers/Itoi himself instead of made up Truth of the universe which is based on "well it says smart words so it must be him".

We have standards for such levels of meta, you know. You first yeet them, or Earthbound keeps the Low 1-C cosmology, for the same reason other verses are. It's literally how this wiki counts these characters, and you ain't the one to make Earthbound the exception here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Being a "Dream World" doesn't make it all illusory. Dream worlds being legit alternate realities is quite common in fiction. Also, it's common knowledge that that "Death of the Author" is a thing. The actual game still clearly portrays Magicant as an actual world over the fact that the items he takes are still carried over to the real world as well as the enemies he fights still harms him or gives him exp and money when Ness beats them. Everyone else still mentions a cosmic entity and often uses "Truth of the Universe" interchangeably to describe the same thing.

No offense, but most if not all counter-arguments against the ratings or Truth of the Universe's existence appear to be personal knit picks rather than actual refutes.

 

[Jibz]

Being a "Dream World" doesn't make it all illusory. Dream worlds being legit alternate realities is quite common in fiction. Also, it's common knowledge that that "Death of the Author" is a thing. The actual game still clearly portrays Magicant as an actual world over the fact that the items he takes are still carried over to the real world as well as the enemies he fights still harms him or gives him exp and money when Ness beats them. Everyone else still mentions a cosmic entity and often uses "Truth of the Universe" interchangeably to describe the same thing.

No offense, but most if not all counter-arguments against the ratings or Truth of the Universe's existence appear to be personal knit picks rather than actual refutes.

i always find it ironic when the arguments against something that they denounce as assumptions are in fact assumptions themselves. This is getting tiresome and i haven't seen any definitive evidence against TOTU's existence except "muh headcanon is correct". Not to be crass, but this is becoming rather asinine.

 

[Oleggator]

No one said that Magicants aren't Mental Worlds, but they're real asf, as items which you bring from Magican't don't disappear, meaning that they're real.

So basically the only thing to proof that the world is real is a game mechanic, literally game mechanic not even some in lore statement.

And Magicants have shown to have stars and planets in the background.

I can also see stars and planets in my dreams, so I should be uni by that logic. Do you understand how dumb and reckless is the argument you made?

Maybe because Ness' consiousness was the one becoming the universe, and not the body.

I may sound repetitive but remind me, what implies it being literal. As I said earlier, Mother series is a game series with satire genre, which have a lot of cultural, religious, references, as well as have metaphors and ironies. You have nothing to prove it actually being not metaphorical or ironical. Plus it doesn't has any support from the plot.

Giygas was said 300 times from anything to be an Universe buster, and Ness was said that it was the only to defeat him, and that he actually succeded in such. Only reason Ness' couldn't was because of Giygas being amped from Porky to avoid the prophecy from becoming true. Also the Dr Andonuts of Mother 2 timeline is different from the one of Mother 3, with different experience.

Except, prophecy tells about not just Ness but about him and his companions. As well as we couldn't harm Giygas even before Porky activated devil's machine which supposedly by you AMPd Giygas. Again, if Itoi really wanted he actually would let you kill Giygas, except, you can't. And there's no context of how Giygas even looked before we see him, so I have no idea how you are supposed to know that Ness could beat Giygas.

We have standards for such levels of meta, you know. You first yeet them, or Earthbound keeps the Low 1-C cosmology, for the same reason other verses are. It's literally how this wiki counts these characters, and you ain't the one to make Earthbound the exception here.

If you want me to say it, I'll say it, this standard sucks, but I literally do not care about other verses, I'm not obligated to care about them either. It's Earthbound CRT and if you may, stay on the topic of Earthbound, if you may not, I am afraid. All I'm doing here so far is dancing to your "tune" and seeing how stuff doesn't makes sense even in context you are building.

Being a "Dream World" doesn't make it all illusory. Dream worlds being legit alternate realities is quite common in fiction. Also, it's common knowledge that that "Death of the Author" is a thing. The actual game still clearly portrays Magicant as an actual world over the fact that the items he takes are still carried over to the real world as well as the enemies he fights still harms him or gives him exp and money when Ness beats them. Everyone else still mentions a cosmic entity and often uses "Truth of the Universe" interchangeably to describe the same thing.

If you want to put "Death of the Author" term here then this literally hurts to cosmology high due to 5D scaling coming from Author claims. Literally don't see your points.

i always find it ironic when the arguments against something that they denounce as assumptions are in fact assumptions themselves. This is getting tiresome and i haven't seen any definitive evidence against TOTU's existence except "muh headcanon is correct". Not to be crass, but this is becoming rather asinine.

Even if it is assumption, that does not justifies assumptions from the TOTU side.

 

[Jibz]

Even if it is assumption, that does not justifies assumptions from the TOTU side.

The assumptions from the TOTU side (Atleast in my case) is not adding an assumption to TOTU scans. So im not sure what "assumptions" we're using. The fact assumptions are even in play here is insane imo

 

[StrymULTRA]

So basically the only thing to proof that the world is real is a game mechanic, literally game mechanic not even some in lore statement.

Bruh what? It literally explains how that is a real thing. The boost Ness got at Magicant is real too lol.

I can also see stars and planets in my dreams, so I should be uni by that logic. Do you understand how dumb and reckless is the argument you made?

You dreams aren't real. Magicants are. Next?

I may sound repetitive but remind me, what implies it being literal. As I said earlier, Mother series is a game series with satire genre, which have a lot of cultural, religious, references, as well as have metaphors and ironies. You have nothing to prove it actually being not metaphorical or ironical. Plus it doesn't has any support from the plot.

Ness becoming the universe is a metaphor to what? When we have future Ness telepatically speaking to present one.

Except, prophecy tells about not just Ness but about him and his companions. As well as we couldn't harm Giygas even before Porky activated devil's machine which supposedly by you AMPd Giygas. Again, if Itoi really wanted he actually would let you kill Giygas, except, you can't. And there's no context of how Giygas even looked before we see him, so I have no idea how you are supposed to know that Ness could beat Giygas.

Future Ness literally says that is him who beats Giygas.

If you want me to say it, I'll say it, this standard sucks, but I literally do not care about other verses, I'm not obligated to care about them either. It's Earthbound CRT and if you may, stay on the topic of Earthbound, if you may not, I am afraid. All I'm doing here so far is dancing to your "tune" and seeing how stuff doesn't makes sense even in context you are building.

You are obligated, because we can't make exception to a verse because you're desperate about downgrading it. If you don't agree with the standard, make a separate CRT on it.

If you want to put "Death of the Author" term here then this literally hurts to cosmology high due to 5D scaling coming from Author claims. Literally don't see your points.

Real World existing is pointed from also Ruffini and Player themselves being relevant against Giygas.

Even if it is assumption, that does not justifies assumptions from the TOTU side.

Which you failed to counter, as usual.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

5-D cosmology comes from a multitude of sources coming together; not author statements exclusively. It was the "Magicant or Truth of the Universe not being real" is the statement that wouldn't apply via Death of the Author, because those are the statements clearly contradicted by the in game statements.

 

[0ホルスファルコン将軍0]

So TL;DR TOTU is still 1-C which makes Ness the same de-facto and OP's "points" are just cope and seethe

 

[Oleggator]

Bruh what? It literally explains how that is a real thing. The boost Ness got at Magicant is real too lol.

Except it being stated dream, means it is a dream, which means it is not real.

You dreams aren't real. Magicants are. Next?

See above.

Ness becoming the universe is a metaphor to what? When we have future Ness telepatically speaking to present one.

I bet you're referencing this scene.
1. Nothing specifies future Ness was talking to present Ness. In fact, by logic I assume you think future Ness talks with Ness we can fairly assume as well that Ness talks with himself. Which also can happen in dream, which also happened in Magicant, twice.
2. I dunno, at least philosophical concepts of being one with the universe which are deemed to be not literal as well as quotation marks which are used in a literature for a reason to mark stuff as non literal.

Future Ness literally says that is him who beats Giygas.

By how? It is never specified the context of stuff.

You are obligated, because we can't make exception to a verse because you're desperate about downgrading it. If you don't agree with the standard, make a separate CRT on it.

I am not. Again, Earthbound theme, anything else is not mine problem, next.

Real World existing is pointed from also Ruffini and Player themselves being relevant against Giygas.

Which Itoi states as part of gameplay anyway, plus like, Itoi wrote almost all script for Earthbound, so if you want to use "Death of the Author" term then definitely not here.

Which you failed to counter, as usual.

Which you failed to prove.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Except it being stated dream, means it is a dream, which means it is not real.

So Ness' boost isn't real? So the whole stuff happened at Magicant in both Mother 1 and 2 isn't real? All the items and exp got at Magicant aren't real? What's the purpose of this thing then? Man please tell me you're joking, especially when as both @DarkDragonMedeus said, Dream Worlds can be real.

I bet you're referencing this scene.
1. Nothing specifies future Ness was talking to present Ness. In fact, by logic I assume you think future Ness talks with Ness we can fairly assume as well that Ness talks with himself.

Ness heard a familiar voice
"Giygas will be defeated from a boy called Ness... That's me!"

2. I dunno, at least philosophical concepts of being one with the universe which are deemed to be not literal as well as quotation marks which are used in a literature for a reason to mark stuff as non literal.

Ok like? If you don't even know what is that a metaphor for, then what are you even arguing at?

"It's a metaphor, I don't know what would be for, but is a metaphor because I don't like Ness being an universe."

I am not. Again, Earthbound theme, anything else is not mine problem, next.

This is like trying to make a character infinite speed for timeless voids despite the standards not allowing such, and all the answer is "I don't care about standards lmfao". See the problem, you're just biased against the verse.

Which Itoi states as part of gameplay anyway, plus like, Itoi wrote almost all script for Earthbound, so if you want to use "Death of the Author" term then definitely not here.

That happens for all fiction in general tho. Some WoGs are valid, some aren't. We apply this to anything.

 

[Oleggator]

So Ness' boost isn't real? So the whole stuff happened at Magicant in both Mother 1 and 2 isn't real? All the items and exp got at Magicant aren't real? What's the purpose of this thing then? Man please tell me you're joking, especially when as both @DarkDragonMedeus said, Dream Worlds can be real.

Well, kind of if you think about it, since mostly what he got are exp. points, then again there are no explanations of what Ness did get during the Magicant "boost". Game didn't tells you how big the boost itself either. What whole stuff? You're saying it like, literally everything happened in Magicant. Please tell me if you are joking intending dreams being real when dreams by their own definition are not real. Especially when it is intended to be literal dream.

Ness heard a familiar voice
"Giygas will be defeated from a boy called Ness... That's me!"

...and? Again, we've seen Ness talking with himself before, twice, in a dream world.

Ok like? If you don't even know what is that a metaphor for, then what are you even arguing at?

If you've read that I not even said word "metaphor" here. What I said, there are stuff which tells that it's not literal, but figurative meaning instead. Psychology, philosophy, culture, metaphysics, all of which is applicable for Mother series. As I said before Itoi likes looking at stuff about Mother series being more philosophical in a sense. At least this is what Itoi truly intended when creating Mother series. If you want me to throw mine 2 cents on what it could be meaning, it could mean, becoming yourself, accepting who you are and where you come from. Accepting your past, present, and future. Philosophical thinking, is one of the things for what some people love Mother series. Quotation marks as well are placed to tell you that this is not literally becoming a universe. It's all literature writing basis, which I believe you should understand well.

This is like trying to make a character infinite speed for timeless voids despite the standards not allowing such, and all the answer is "I don't care about standards lmfao". See the problem, you're just biased against the verse.

Dunno what are you waiting from me with that. Again, not Earthbound related stuff is not mine problem. The only thing you probably will get from me is "lol 4-th wall" or sh** like that. Like, if I would want to compromise it, at least disconnect anything from the player, and I guess it'll be fine(?), or don't know, again, tell me what are you expecting from me with that attitude.

That happens for all fiction in general tho. Some WoGs are valid, some aren't. We apply this to anything.

Tbh, feels like manipulating context, saying one words from the man are false while the other are right, even though it's coming from same man, about same topic.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, kind of if you think about it, since mostly what he got are exp. points, then again there are no explanations of what Ness did get during the Magicant "boost". Game didn't tells you how big the boost itself either. What whole stuff? You're saying it like, literally everything happened in Magicant. Please tell me if you are joking intending dreams being real when dreams by their own definition are not real. Especially when it is intended to be literal dream.

Dream Worlds can be real in fiction. See Pokémon Dream World, the whole concept of Dreams in Chronoverse and others.

Inb4 "but is another verse", because it's another standard you're against.

If you've read that I not even said word "metaphor" here. What I said, there are stuff which tells that it's not literal, but figurative meaning instead. Psychology, philosophy, culture, metaphysics, all of which is applicable for Mother series. As I said before Itoi likes looking at stuff about Mother series being more philosophical in a sense. At least this is what Itoi truly intended when creating Mother series. If you want me to throw mine 2 cents on what it could be meaning, it could mean, becoming yourself, accepting who you are and where you come from. Accepting your past, present, and future. Philosophical thinking, is one of the things for what some people love Mother series. Quotation marks as well are placed to tell you that this is not literally becoming a universe. It's all literature writing basis, which I believe you should understand well.

Ergo you don't even know what would your metaphor mean. Ok.

Dunno what are you waiting from me with that. Again, not Earthbound related stuff is not mine problem. The only thing you probably will get from me is "lol 4-th wall" or sh** like that. Like, if I would want to compromise it, at least disconnect anything from the player, and I guess it'll be fine(?), or don't know, again, tell me what are you expecting from me with that attitude.

So you either accept it or stop arguing. On this wiki it's clear how we do things here.

Tbh, feels like manipulating context, saying one words from the man are false while the other are right, even though it's coming from same man, about same topic.

Dragon Ball COFF COFF

 

[Oleggator]

Dream Worlds can be real in fiction. See Pokémon Dream World, the whole concept of Dreams in Chronoverse and others.

Inb4 "but is another verse", because it's another standard you're against.

The word "can" is already gives a goosebumps. There is nothing in lore what tells that magicant is real, and instead there is a lot of in lore what tells it is not. Then again, it's Earthbound CRT to which discussing Pokémon is absolutely redundant at least giмme context to pokemon stuff.

Ergo you don't even know what would your metaphor mean. Ok.

The fact that you not denied and ignored the point pretty much seen in this comment.

So you either accept it or stop arguing. On this wiki it's clear how we do things here.

Accept what? I guess you wanted to say "and" instead of "or". I still am not getting your points at all.

Dragon Ball COFF COFF

That denies my point...?

 

[StrymULTRA]

The word "can" is already gives a goosebumps. There is nothing in lore what tells that magicant is real, and instead there is a lot of in lore what tells it is not. Then again, it's Earthbound CRT to which discussing Pokémon is absolutely redundant at least giму context to pokemon stuff.

• Nothing saying Magicant is real
• There's a real portal bringing to Maria's Magicant
• Items and Exp got there are real and remain even if said Magicant disappears
• The whole point of Ness' travel is to get to his Magicant

For Pokémon, is the same, as Pokémon and items got from the Dream World can perfectly exist in the "regular" universe exactly like said items and EXP, even if the dream from where they originate from is gone.

The fact that you not denied and ignored the point pretty much seen in this comment.

How in the flying **** is Ness discovering himself related to him gaining enough power to beat Giygas? Man this is becoming more and more dumb.

Accept what? I guess you wanted to say "and" instead of "or". I still am not getting your points at all.

Accept our standards for Reality Fiction interaction based on said levels of meta. I thought @Ultima_Reality and @Chariot190 were kinda clear.

That denies my point...?

Yes. DB verse along is a proof that not all WOGs needing to be taken in order to be accepted, but only the ones supported from the series. We do it like this on this wiki.

 

[Chariot190]

Huh I wasn't being notified by this at all for like the past page, idk lads I'm kinda leaning toward Strym and the others on this one, definitely seems to be an actual thing that exists and what not. The raws iirc also support the claims in that they're more straightforward and use less vague wording (Like in the overlap universe whatever line for example, that's more straightforward in the og text).
Magicant is a legit world tho too, in Mother 1, it's made pretty clear it's a actual place, a world made of dreams sure, but a physical world where things do indeed exist all the same.

 

[Oleggator]

• Nothing saying Magicant is real
• There's a real portal bringing to Maria's Magicant
• Items and Exp got there are real and remain even if said Magicant disappears
• The whole point of Ness' travel is to get to his Magicant

For Pokémon, is the same, as Pokémon and items got from the Dream World can perfectly exist in the "regular" universe exactly like said items and EXP, even if the dream from where they originate from is gone.

So uh, nothing in-lore what tells it's real, what you showed are just game mechanics. If only savior of your points are "well other verses do that too", instead of in-verse evidence, then well, it doesn't change things much, and what are you trying to do now only to stymie, instead of legit lore argumentation. Plus like, game doesn't tells you the point of Ness being in Magiciant, it just tells you "you must".

How in the flying **** is Ness discovering himself related to him gaining enough power to beat Giygas? Man this is becoming more and more dumb.

1. Rude
2. Again, think about it more philosophically, if you won't do that then you missed a lot of stuff from Earthbound, what else I'm gonna tell to you.

Accept our standards for Reality Fiction interaction based on said levels of meta. I thought @Ultima_Reality and @Chariot190 were kinda clear.

Oh well, I won't then, if that what you're telling and/or want from me.

Yes. DB verse along is a proof that not all WOGs needing to be taken in order to be accepted, but only the ones supported from the series. We do it like this on this wiki.

I still am not getting your point and how it is justifies manipulation of context.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So uh, nothing in-lore what tells it's real, what you showed are just game mechanics. If only savior of your points are "well other verses do that too", instead of in-verse evidence, then well, it doesn't change things much, and what are you trying to do now only to stymie, instead of legit lore argumentation. Plus like, game doesn't tells you the point of Ness being in Magiciant, it just tells you "you must".

I shown you the need of the portal and actual items existing like Magicant Bat. You telling me that Magicant Bat's very existence is a game mechanic...?

1. Rude
2. Again, think about it more philosophically, if you won't do that then you missed a lot of stuff from Earthbound, what else I'm gonna tell to you.

I talk like I want against such stubborness and refusal to accept simple facts. I'm not using your headcanons, I use what the game and characters directly say. This confirmation bias of yours is just dumb.

Oh well, I won't then, if that what you're telling and/or want from me.

Then make a CRT against it or shut up. Standards exist to be respected, not that a verse becomes an exception because you don't like it. How the wiki treats things >>> your feelings.

I still am not getting your point and how it is justifies manipulation of context.

Other verses use just the WoGs that are supported from the medias. The fews that aren't gets discarded. Simple.

 

[Chariot190]

Isn't the fact the whole squad being able to interact with someone else's Magicant in Mother 1 evidence enough that they're real?
Like Ness interacting with his own Magicant is one thing, but when like a whole squad can enter someone else's Magicant and **** around there despite it not being their dream but someone else's should be evidence enough.

 

[Oleggator]

I shown you the need of the portal and actual items existing like Magicant Bat. You telling me that Magicant Bat's very existence is a game mechanic...?

Considering it doesn't has plot's relevance it could be it. Then again, you are able to make up several abilities from vague quotes, but at same time can't count that mechanic as at least dream manipulation?

I talk like I want against such stubborness and refusal to accept simple facts. I'm not using your headcanons, I use what the game and characters directly say. This confirmation bias of yours is just dumb.

Ok then, your "facts" doesn't seem to add up, if your only way is what game says not directly but through vague quotes that, again, easily can be considered not literate, then logic doesn't seems to be good or even "simple".

Then make a CRT against it or shut up. Standards exist to be respected, not that a verse becomes an exception because you don't like it. How the wiki treats things >>> your feelings.

It's funny how you say about me hating the verse just because of the fact that I'm trying to downgrade it, pure comedy.

Other verses use just the WoGs that are supported from the medias. The fews that aren't gets discarded. Simple.

So, again what are you trying to do here is to manipulate the context. That's the only thing I see you're trying to do atm.

 

[Jibz]

It's funny how you say about me hating the verse just because of the fact that I'm trying to downgrade it, pure comedy.

He probably thinks you dislike it because of how obtuse your rationale is, but hey that's just my opinion.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Considering it doesn't has plot's relevance it could be it. Then again, you are able to make up several abilities from vague quotes, but at same time can't count that mechanic as at least dream manipulation?

Lol this is pure reaching. It's a regular item.

Ok then, your "facts" doesn't seem to add up, if your only way is what game says not directly but through vague quotes that, again, easily can be considered not literate, then logic doesn't seems to be good or even "simple".

"Ness has every part of him becoming one with the universe"
"Player is the one who killed off Giygas"

These seem pretty straightfoward to me.

So, again what are you trying to do here is to manipulate the context. That's the only thing I see you're trying to do atm.

Then I'm sorry for you.

It's funny how you say about me hating the verse just because of the fact that I'm trying to downgrade it, pure comedy.

I mean. You're breaking and ignoring like, 3 standards, just to downgrade this verse.

He probably thinks you dislike it because of how obtuse your rationale is, but hey that's just my opinion.

He's trying this since months and is obsessed with Raz vs Ness. I do smell spite in this CRT ngl.

 

[Arceus0x]

I have a question...why DO we accept reality-fiction as higher dimensions? I guess if you can prove it in the context of earthbound it would work with all the surpassing of time space going on but how does it work without the context?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I have a question...why DO we accept reality-fiction as higher dimensions? I guess if you can prove it in the context of earthbound it would work with all the surpassing of time space going on but how does it work without the context?

In short The Player's world perceives Ness and Giygas, who are physically 4D, as just a game, and has lots of stuff saying that is a world that counts it as a programmed game. In Mother 3 is even said that The Player lives in its own world separated from the game one too.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I have a question...why DO we accept reality-fiction as higher dimensions? I guess if you can prove it in the context of earthbound it would work with all the surpassing of time space going on but how does it work without the context?

Oh sorry, I read it wrong.

Without context, it's heavily case by case, but generally if you prove that what's in the game world is inferior to the "Real World" (like being completely beyond the fictional world and encompassing it) then it is Higher D.

 

[Oleggator]

Lol this is pure reaching. It's a regular item.

Again, if game mechanic is the only thing you're using to prove your point, then I guess there is not much arguments I can see from you.

"Ness has every part of him becoming one with the universe"
"Player is the one who killed off Giygas"

Missed quotation of the first one, as well as taking this quote again, too literally.

I mean. You're breaking and ignoring like, 3 standards, just to downgrade this verse.

And this means I hate verse...? Brilliant deduction, just clapping my hands to this one. Anyway, this feels absolutely unrelated to the CRT, so uh... keep your anger somewhere else, cause the only thing that it makes me do is laugh.

 

[Arceus0x]

Without context, it's heavily case by case, but generally if you prove that what's in the game world is inferior to the "Real World" (like being completely beyond the fictional world and encompassing it) then it is Higher D.

kinda weird ngl. What if the guy is just 4.001D and is just generally larger than the real world but not 5D

 

[Jibz]

kinda weird ngl. What if the guy is just 4.001D and is just generally larger than the real world but not 5D

what............

 

[StrymULTRA]

Again, if game mechanic is the only thing you're using to prove your point, then I guess there is not much arguments I can see from you.

Proofs of it being a game mechanic? Because you're ignoring the pink rock of Mother 1, and the whole boost Ness got there. These 2 alone are debunks.

Missed quotation of the first one, as well as taking this quote again, too literally.

Already dealt with that. It's explicit asf lol.

And this means I hate verse...? Brilliant deduction, just clapping my hands to this one. Anyway, this feels absolutely unrelated to the CRT, so uh... keep your anger somewhere else, cause the only thing that it makes me do is laugh.

Laugh all you want, but you either make CRTs following the standards, or you don't at all. That's how this site works.

kinda weird ngl. What if the guy is just 4.001D and is just generally larger than the real world but not 5D

That's so specific lol. Anti Feats can be a thing tho, like DDLC's Real World who was treated as 4D before Plus, where is revealed that DDLC is just "a simulation as real as the universe", making the Real World just 3D like ours, or Dragon Ball Heroes one, who speaks up from itself. EarthBound meets the criterias tho don't worry.

 

[Oleggator]

Proofs of it being a game mechanic? Because you're ignoring the pink rock of Mother 1, and the whole boost Ness got there. These 2 alone are debunks.

Because, again, this is object not relevant to the plot as well as it doesn't has explanations, while Magicant being dream (and therefore not real since this what dreams are) is severely confirmed from multiple materials. Again, you find it simple to make up abilities to vague quotes, but find it hard to tell something like "dream manipulation" to that game mechanic.

Already dealt with that. It's explicit asf lol.

And so did I, it's contradicts to the plot and has other more deep meanings.

Laugh all you want, but you either make CRTs following the standards, or you don't at all. That's how this site works.

Thanks for allowing me to, with keeping that in mind, I'll keep laughing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Because, again, this is object not relevant to the plot as well as it doesn't has explanations, while Magicant being dream (and therefore not real since this what dreams are) is severely confirmed from multiple materials. Again, you find it simple to make up abilities to vague quotes, but find it hard to tell something like "dream manipulation" to that game mechanic.

Dreams can be real in fiction. Stop.

And so did I, it's contradicts to the plot

Its physical body needed to time travel. Consiousness not.

has other more deep meanings.

Which you failed to provide.

Thanks for allowing me to, with keeping that in mind, I'll keep laughing.

So you admitted you can't make CRTs without breaking standards. Anything to fit your narrative after all.

 

[Oleggator]

Dreams can be real in fiction. Stop.

"Can be" doesn't mean they are

Its physical body needed to time travel. Consiousness not.

Yet what we see in profiles is that Ness has an "avatars". Which is made up even with "universal consciousness" logic.

Which you failed to provide.

Which you failed to understand.

So you admitted you can't make CRTs without breaking standards. Anything to fit your narrative after all.

So far I see no progression from this part, so I'll just repeat, literally don't care about other verses, this is probably the only thing you'll get from me at this point, you may say whatever you want, that'll not be differ much.

 

[StrymULTRA]

"Can be" doesn't mean they are

And in this case they are. Nothing contradicts Magicants being real.

Yet what we see in profiles is that Ness has an "avatars". Which is made up even with "universal consciousness" logic.

Then we change that lol. This is what CRTs are for.

Which you failed to understand.

I don't understand headcanon. I'm sorry for this inability of mine.

So far I see no progression from this part, so I'll just repeat, literally don't care about other verses, this is probably the only thing you'll get from me at this point, can say whatever you want, that'll not be differ much.

If you don't care that's your problem, but it'll be kept as it works under this site's ways.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In this case, there are literal in game statements that describe Magicant as having real cosmology stuff. That's literally what Earthbound is about is mental things are literal.

Ness has always been one with destiny; the Ness that's playable in your party has always been an avatar of the true Ness. We cannot just ignore statements spoken by the Truth of the Universe.

And don't need to repeat what Strym basically said.