Earthbound: The War against Truth of the Universe (Also known as, massive downgrades)

[Armorchompy]

If by Anti Feats you mean the whole the time machine thing, you're wrong. Because is said that Ness will become everything in the universe from absorbing the power of the Earth, and needed said boost to fight Giygas, who's blatantly omnipresent.

To fight Giygas, and lose? Paula is the one that leads to the defeat of Giygas, by praying. And before you say that you need to damage Giygas to get to that phase, yeah, but the other party members can do that too. Also, you literally didn't address the fact that he needs to be put inside a robot. Despite being ******' omnipresent

And no, nothing in these scenes say that she's using an avatar. Ness is the same, it's clearly stated that in order to become one with the universe is needed to take the power of the Earth, which he did.

Yeah, except that Ness is still portrayed as comparable to his party members, can still canonically die against non-omnipresent beings (after all, the way game overs allegedly work shows that the possibility of death is canon at any time), and functions like a living breathing flesh organism.

That's not said in the literal version. It's said instead Defeating Gyiyg without doing so will be impossible, and if you see the link, is said the whole "becoming the universe" as a requirement to being able to fight Giygas.

Cool, how unfortunate that Ness didn't defeat Giygas.

I don't even think the Fate Hax is offensive, just a defensive one like EoH Jotaro's.

Again I wouldn't recommend you to make comparisons to other verses, especially when this one is just wrong, considering Jotaro just manually altered a few things.

but the stuff leading at ToTU being the one speaking to Ness at the coffee, matching the previous claim of it speaking to the universes, is more than clear.

This doesn't prove fatehax in itself.

 

[Armorchompy]

You shoot your own foot now as you just said that Giygas survived to the Player even after being weakened, meaning that without the previous prayers Giygas would have withstand much more hits from the Player.

He's saying that you shouldn't assume he was weakened.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Nothing says they're different in speed, given that in fight they're used as the same, and not an attack faster than the rest lol.


"actual arguments". You've just spammed the whole metaphor excuse when other verses are accepted to be such. I bring them as I actually know the context around them to being able to compare to EarthBound's, unlike you, who just excludes it despite it's clear how we manage similar shit all the time.

Thank you for saying you ignore how this very wiki treats omnipresent characters.

Awareness from who? It's said that is a being that speaks to the universes, who else should lmfao? And you "thinking" is not when all you did was dismissing it as "lol metaphor" is not a counter lol.

It really doesn't matter if PK thunder is real, as people don't dodge it, it's a hit-or-miss. And even if they did dodge it, we have no visual representations and have to assume it's aim dodging

 

[StrymULTRA]

To fight Giygas, and lose? Paula is the one that leads to the defeat of Giygas, by praying. And before you say that you need to damage Giygas to get to that phase, yeah, but the other party members can do that too. Also, you literally didn't address the fact that he needs to be put inside a robot. Despite being ******' omnipresent

Other party members damaging Giygas is a blatant Game Mechanic as no one took the boost Ness got.

Yeah, except that Ness is still portrayed as comparable to his party members, can still canonically die against non-omnipresent beings (after all, the way game overs allegedly work shows that the possibility of death is canon at any time), and functions like a living breathing flesh organism.

And this is still ignoring the whole statement about him explicitly becoming one with the universe. And yes, that would still be an avatar, as otherwise the whole point of getting the 8 spots and absorbing the power of the land is meaningless, which is extremely false (do I have to remember him getting extremely powered in stats after Magicant? I know stats shouldn't be used but is evident he became immensely stronger after that).

Cool, how unfortunate that Ness didn't defeat Giygas.

The boost still exists, you can't ignore that lol. Ness from the boost is still the only one who reasonably was able to damage it without Game Mechanics.

This doesn't prove fatehax in itself.

It proves that ToTU exists, and that everything is already fated in the same statement of it speaking to the universes. The "lucky accidents" VileShadows listed are supportive of such, I never used those as main reasoning.

He's saying that you shouldn't assume he was weakened.

His point was about Giygas being weakened before Player attacked him, which makes Giygas fully scale to them as Giygas was already weakened before being definitely killed from the 3/4 prayers the Player did.

 

[Oleggator]

Bruh.

No really go ahead, if that something you want with your logic.

A talking rock can't know all of a sudden all that shit about Giygas lol.

But "nothing" can?

I mean, Ness' feats proved that.

If by "that" you mean nothing, then yes.

I don't see what's the point. Itoi is a character in Mother 3 like the Player is, Player's world is explicitly mentioned at the ending of the game. Same in Mother 2, where Paula's pray "reached" them.

Except again, Itoi is here and we are here, game talks to us and not to some separate world.

You shoot your own foot now as you just said that Giygas survived to the Player even after being weakened, meaning that without the previous prayers Giygas would have withstand much more hits from the Player.

Oh yeah cause game definetly tells that he'll kill me if Ness dies, great creepypasta.

Other party members damaging Giygas is a blatant Game Mechanic as no one took the boost Ness got.

Ah so when Ness does something to Giygas is "scaling" but when other party members doing it it's "game mechanic". Giygas like, did not got damage at all, neither from Ness or from anyone in the game, scaling Ness to Giygas is one of the dumbest things to do.

And this is still ignoring the whole statement about him explicitly becoming one with the universe.

Which also can be considered as metaphor.

 

[Armorchompy]

Other party members damaging Giygas is a blatant Game Mechanic as no one took the boost Ness got. /

The boost still exists, you can't ignore that lol. Ness from the boost is still the only one who reasonably was able to damage it without Game Mechanics.

Or maybe the boost wasn't significant to the point of making Ness unfathomably superior to the rest of the team. Regardless I think you're doing a lot of cherry-picking if you think that the rest of the team hurting Giygas is game mechanics, but Ness doing the same is a showing of power. Who's to say the latter isn't gameplay mechanics too? Especially when they need to fight a boss together right before that.

A reminder that Earthbound is perfectly capable of making allied characters invulnerable or crushingly strong (EVA from Mother 1, Dungeon Man, Buzz Buzz all come to mind), but they didn't do that.

And this is still ignoring the whole statement about him explicitly becoming one with the universe.

""""Explicitly""""

And yes, that would still be an avatar, as otherwise the whole point of getting the 8 spots and absorbing the power of the land is meaningless, which is extremely false (do I have to remember him getting extremely powered in stats after Magicant?

Stats increased =/= Stats increased to a tier 2 level, if evidence shows he's still comparable to the rest of the team then we assume the stat amping made him superior to them, but not to a crushing degree.

I know stats shouldn't be used but is evident he became immensely stronger after that).

I'm not disputing that, Earthbound, like most truly great game stories, makes use of its gameplay to tell that story, so I think there's a very clear intention behind most of the gameplay events.

It proves that ToTU exists, and that everything is already fated in the same statement of it speaking to the universes. The "lucky accidents" VileShadows listed are supportive of such, I never used those as main reasoning.

If everything is fated, then the game overs wouldn't happen in the first place, meanwhile the assumption is that they are being erased retroactively when they happen, which obviously contrasts that.

His point was about Giygas being weakened before Player attacked him, which makes Giygas fully scale to them as Giygas was already weakened before being definitely killed from the 3/4 prayers the Player did.

No evidence of this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

No really go ahead, if that something you want with your logic.

If you can't disprove the omnipresence without spamming metaphor when several omnipresents are, then not my fault.

But "nothing" can?

Said nothing was ToTU, given it knows all that stuff and is the one talking to Ness in this way, so...

Except again, Itoi is here and we are here, game talks to us and not to some separate world.

Dark Dragon didn't threaten our world, just a fictional representation of it.

Oh yeah cause game definetly tells that he'll kill me if Ness dies, great creepypasta.

Strawman.

Ah so when Ness does something to Giygas is "scaling" but when other party members doing it it's "game mechanic". Giygas like, did not got damage at all, neither from Ness or from anyone in the game, scaling Ness to Giygas is one of the dumbest things to do.

Giygas explicitly takes damage, for example in Mother 3 stuff that's too strong because tier gets 0 damage, like the Absolute Zero Capsule. And I think that if anything Ness should be a "Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C" lol.

Or maybe the boost wasn't significant to the point of making Ness unfathomably superior to the rest of the team. Regardless I think you're doing a lot of cherry-picking if you think that the rest of the team hurting Giygas is game mechanics, but Ness doing the same is a showing of power. Who's to say the latter isn't gameplay mechanics too? Especially when they need to fight a boss together right before that.

That was Porky who obviously doesn't scale to that Ness unless you think end game Lucas is that strong. And yeah, it's game mechanics, as they didn't get the same boost he got.

Stats increased =/= Stats increased to a tier 2 level, if evidence shows he's still comparable to the rest of the team then we assume the stat amping made him superior to them, but not to a crushing degree.

It's supporting evidence of Ness being stronger. Ofc stats can't increase to infinity levels in code. It's explicit evidence of him being stronger than he was.

I'm not disputing that, Earthbound, like most truly great game stories, makes use of its gameplay to tell that story, so I think there's a very clear intention behind most of the gameplay events.

If everything is fated, then the game overs wouldn't happen in the first place, meanwhile the assumption is that they are being erased retroactively when they happen, which obviously contrasts that.

The whole Ost name of the Game Over screen is "Bad Dream", meaning that it never happened as it was just a bad dream. Inb4 "but OST name isn't a thing" because for Giygas the OST phases describe exactly what is happening to him.

No evidence of this.

Giygas got its defenses explicitely lowered.

""""Explicitly""""

The time will come when every part of you will become one (note: or overlap) with every part of the universe.
You need not understand right now.
Do you remember “Giant Step” back in Onett? That was one of “Your Places”.
These are spots that give you power and draw out “every part” of you.

I mean, the whole thing of the boost was taking every single bit of Ness' existence and making it merge with the universe. That's hella explicit lmfao.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

If you can't disprove the omnipresence without spamming metaphor when several omnipresents are, then not my fault.

Said nothing was ToTU, given it knows all that stuff and is the one talking to Ness in this way, so...

Dark Dragon didn't threaten our world, just a fictional representation of it.

Strawman.

Giygas explicitly takes damage, for example in Mother 3 stuff that's too strong because tier gets 0 damage, like the Absolute Zero Capsule. And I think that if anything Ness should be a "Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C" lol.

That was Porky who obviously doesn't scale to that Ness unless you think end game Lucas is that strong. And yeah, it's game mechanics, as they didn't get the same boost he got.

It's supporting evidence of Ness being stronger. Ofc stats can't increase to infinity levels in code. It's explicit evidence of him being stronger than he was.


The whole Ost name of the Game Over screen is "Bad Dream", meaning that it never happened as it was just a bad dream. Inb4 "but OST name isn't a thing" because for Giygas the OST phases describe exactly what is happening to him.

Giygas got its defenses explicitely lowered.

The time will come when every part of you will become one (note: or overlap) with every part of the universe.
You need not understand right now.
Do you remember “Giant Step” back in Onett? That was one of “Your Places”.
These are spots that give you power and draw out “every part” of you.

I mean, the whole thing of the boost was taking every single bit of Ness' existence and making it merge with the universe. That's hella explicit lmfao.

Is there a single, and I mean a single actual effect of Ness becoming omnipresent?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is there a single, and I mean a single actual effect of Ness becoming omnipresent?

Giygas is stated more and more times to be an universe buster, yet he couldn't destroy the present, due to Ness' influence. And you can't say that's just 3-A as Giygas has explicitly attacked through time and its influence can affect other eras, as he could mind hax people from its cave in the past to the present. And Giygas stopped spreading said evil, but became that evil itself, meaning it was actually 4D.

 

[Armorchompy]

That was Porky who obviously doesn't scale to that Ness unless you think end game Lucas is that strong. And yeah, it's game mechanics, as they didn't get the same boost he got.

Or the boost wasn't that huge, as I've already brought up. Which reconciles perfectly with all you've said.

It's supporting evidence of Ness being stronger. Ofc stats can't increase to infinity levels in code. It's explicit evidence of him being stronger than he was.

Duh, I'm not contesting that.

The whole Ost name of the Game Over screen is "Bad Dream", meaning that it never happened as it was just a bad dream. Inb4 "but OST name isn't a thing" because for Giygas the OST phases describe exactly what is happening to him

From VileShadows' post: "implying that his defeat was unwritten from reality and turned into a bad dream"

If it was unwritten from reality that means it originally happened, duh.

Giygas got its defenses explicitely lowered.

No, that's only said after the first Prayer sequence.

The time will come when every part of you will become one (note: or overlap) with every part of the universe.
You need not understand right now.
Do you remember “Giant Step” back in Onett? That was one of “Your Places”.
These are spots that give you power and draw out “every part” of you.

Literally look up "becoming one with the universe" and you'll find an endless amount of pseudo-philosophical scammy shit that talks about that. It's an incredibly common thing in both religion and philosophy and it's almost never intended literally. Considering it's achieved by becoming closer to his younger self through sanctuaries that show him his memories, that is obviously the same case here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Or the boost wasn't that superior, as I've already brought up. Which reconciles perfectly with all you've said.

If the boost wasn't that strong it wouldn't make sense for said boost to exist in the first place lmao.

If it was unwritten from reality that means it originally happened, duh.

Unwritten from reality means that it didn't happen to begin with, exactly like in Undertale, DT where from LOADing the previous death didn't happen as time was LOADed. However, it did "happen" before, but said events were erased in favor of victory.

No, that's only said after the first Prayer sequence.

Nice doesn't debunk what I said at all.

Literally look up "becoming one with the universe" and you'll find an endless amount of pseudo-philosophical scammy shit that talks about that. It's an incredibly common thing in both religion and philosophy and it's almost never intended literally. Considering it's achieved by becoming closer to his younger self through sanctuaries that show him his memories, that is obviously the same case here.

It's explaining what taking the power of the spots does, unless you think that even that is phylosophical. And using google to find the meanings doesn't contribute to anything, as that isn't supported from the series. It's clear Ness became an universe, and my reply to @Da_Lunge_Fish is an example too.

Oh and the whole future Ness talking to present one supports my argument, as that can only be explained with him becoming the space-time in this context.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Oh and BTW Giygas was that strong because Porky amped him a whole ******* lot. Originally it was Ness who was supposed to defeat him if it wasn't from that boost, but Giygas lost anyway as that was fated to happen, because of Paula.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

If the boost wasn't that strong it wouldn't make sense for said boost to exist in the first place lmao.

A boost doesn't necessarily need to be decillion times stronger than before, a boost would always be appreciated lol.

Unwritten from reality means that it didn't happen to begin with, exactly like in Undertale, DT where from LOADing the previous death didn't happen as time was LOADed. However, it did "happen" before, but said events were erased in favor of victory.

Not how fatehax works. Fatehax would never have them happen to begin with at any point in the timeline.

 

[Armorchompy]

If the boost wasn't that strong it wouldn't make sense for said boost to exist in the first place lmao.

That makes no sense. Surely I don't need to explain to you that becoming "just" significantly stronger is a useful thing.

Unwritten from reality means that it didn't happen to begin with, exactly like in Undertale, DT where from LOADing the previous death didn't happen as time was LOADed. However, it did "happen" before, but said events were erased in favor of victory.

It didn't happen to begin with, but it would or could have, otherwise it wouldn't need to be unwritten to begin with.

As an aside, I believe this is the fifth unrelated franchise you've brought up.

Nice doesn't debunk what I said at all.

How would the prayers scale to the MCs?

It's explaining what taking the power of the spots does, unless you think that even that is philosophical.

Yeah, no shit it is. It brings him closer to Magicant, in which he can complete his journey of self-reflection and improvement.

And using google to find the meanings doesn't contribute to anything, as that isn't supported from the series.

It's illustrating the fact that there's interpretations just as valid as those you're proposing.

It's clear Ness became an universe, and my reply to @Da_Lunge_Fish is an example too.

I've already explained that using Ness hurting Giygas is an extreme case of cherry-picking.

Oh and the whole future Ness talking to present one supports my argument, as that can only be explained with him becoming the space-time in this context.

I don't quite remember, when does that happen? Regardless, the Sanctuaries allow Ness to connect with his younger self so no, that is not necessary. It could also be easily explained as him coming into contact with the Truth, which is something he and others have done before multiple times without becoming space-time lmao.

Oh and BTW Giygas was that strong because Porky amped him a whole ******* lot. Originally it was Ness who was supposed to defeat him if it wasn't from that boost, but Giygas lost anyway as that was fated to happen, because of Paula.

Just because the Apple failed to predict it doesn't mean it wasn't fated, does Porky have acausality for specifically that one action and then never again? Obviously it was fated too, it can be easily explained as the Apple not being specific enough, after all we don't know how it specifically works.

Also, Porky didn't amp him, he just released him, we have no knowledge on Giygas' stats before being released so we don't know if he was omnipresent back then.

 

[StrymULTRA]

A boost doesn't necessarily need to be decillion times stronger than before, a boost would always be appreciated lol.

I know, but I was countering the whole "Ness was still comparable to the party" thing.

Not how fatehax works. Fatehax would never have them happen to begin with at any point in the timeline.

I mean. VileShadows's post doesn't limit to just that. It explains other stuff happened thanks to it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It didn't happen to begin with, but it would or could have, otherwise it wouldn't need to be unwritten to begin with.

Already addressed.

As an aside, I believe this is the fifth unrelated franchise you've brought up.

And I'll keep doing that if necessary, if that's needed to make you understand.

Yeah, no shit it is. It brings him closer to Magicant, in which he can complete his journey of self-reflection and improvement.

Lmao what? At Magicant he unlocks his boost.

How would the prayers scale to the MCs?

I didn't say that. Regardless Ness has its own Low 1-C feat for blocking Giygas from affecting the present anyway.

I don't quite remember, when does that happen?

Yep. It's the future Ness talking to present one, as he says that Giygas will be defeated.
Saying that even Ness is unreliable is now dumb.

Just because the Apple failed to predict it doesn't mean it wasn't fated, does Porky have acausality for specifically that one action and then never again? Obviously it was fated too, it can be easily explained as the Apple not being specific enough, after all we don't know how it specifically works.

It was said that Giygas would lose, not exactly how. And if you try to bring "but it was Ness the one who's fated to defeat him", no, it was still a thing the whole of the Chosen ones did, they were the ones chosen to do so anyway. Giygas becoming stronger than Ness didn't change the outcome of Ness' victory, which was something that was 100% bound to happen.

Also, Porky didn't amp him, he just released him, we have no knowledge on Giygas' stats before being released so we don't know if he was omnipresent back then.

It was still said that Ness needed to become one with the universe in order to beat him even before Giygas' amp, so even before the amp Giygas scales from Ness.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tho I think this is circular as hell.

Someone who has actually played the game like @DarkDragonMedeus should see and check this thread.

 

[Oleggator]

If you can't disprove the omnipresence without spamming metaphor when several omnipresents are, then not my fault.

If you can't prove omnipresence without using vague statements, not my fault either.

Said nothing was ToTU, given it knows all that stuff and is the one talking to Ness in this way, so...

Except you have 0 proof of it being not a metaphor. And don't tell me "prove this is a metaphor", you prove this is not a metaphor with actual evidence and showings except for vague statements.

Dark Dragon didn't threaten our world, just a fictional representation of it.

Which you assume is there, while it's not there.

Strawman.

Great description of yourself.

Giygas explicitly takes damage, for example in Mother 3 stuff that's too strong because tier gets 0 damage, like the Absolute Zero Capsule. And I think that if anything Ness should be a "Low 2-C, likely Low 1-C" lol

Show me footage of Ness killing Giygas and then we'll talk.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If you can't prove omnipresence without using vague statements, not my fault either.

vague
literally said he's one with every part of the universe

Ok champ.

Except you have 0 proof of it being not a metaphor. And don't tell me "prove this is a metaphor", you prove this is not a metaphor with actual evidence and showings except for vague statements.

I mean, nothing contradicts it. Ness has also feats of matching Giygas' omnipresence anyway, other than having his future self talking to present one.

Which you assume is there, while it's not there.

What? It's how author characters are treated here.

Show me footage of Ness killing Giygas and then we'll talk.

Downscale is a thing. And it was even said before that Ness needed to merge with the universe in order to being able to defeat Giygas, meaning that even pre-unsealed Giygas is that strong.

 

[Armorchompy]

Already addressed.

Not at all.

And I'll keep doing that if necessary, if that's needed to make you understand.

It's needed to make bad arguments, not much more than that.

Lmao what? At Magicant he unlocks his boost.

... Yeah, duh?

Yep. It's the future Ness talking to present one, as he says that Giygas will be defeated.

Oh yeah, in the Sea of Eden? As in the one that lets you come into contact with the truth of the universe? The one that contains the ultimate intelligence? Literally zero evidence of the space-time thing then, when they literally bring it up that the Sea will do that.

It was said that Giygas would lose, not exactly how. And if you try to bring "but it was Ness the one who's fated to defeat him", no, it was still a thing the whole of the Chosen ones did, they were the ones chosen to do so anyway. Giygas becoming stronger than Ness didn't change the outcome of Ness' victory, which was something that was 100% bound to happen.

... So, Porky releasing him was fated.

It was still said that Ness needed to become one with the universe in order to beat him even before Giygas' amp, so even before the amp Giygas scales from Ness.

Yes, Ness, whose scaling comes from scaling to Giygas, as well as things that I'm contesting.

 

[theultimate5105]

Regarding the pokemon thing that showed up.
Electric moves like Thunderbolt have been shown to be equal to natural lightning in the anime in terms of speed

 

[StrymULTRA]

Oh yeah, in the Sea of Eden? As in the one that lets you come into contact with the truth of the universe? The one that contains the ultimate intelligence? Literally zero evidence of the space-time thing then, when they literally bring it up that the Sea will do that.

I never used as a main argument. I said it as a supporting evidence as it's a reason on how Future Ness talked to present one.

... So, Porky releasing him was fated.

It was just fated Giygas' defeat. Porky claimed that his boost wasn't expected, as fate hax doesn't necessairly cover ALL the events, just fundamental parts. Giygas was fated to be defeated, and how he was defeated doesn't matter.

Yes, Ness, whose scaling comes from scaling to Giygas, as well as things that I'm contesting.

Ness has his blatant Low 2-C feat at very least. Him scaling to Giygas is another thing for is Low 1-C rating instead.

 

[Armorchompy]

I never used as a main argument. I said it as a supporting evidence as it's a reason on how Future Ness talked to present one.

Yeah and I don't think it holds up

It was just fated Giygas' defeat. Porky claimed that his boost wasn't expected, as fate hax doesn't necessairly cover ALL the events, just fundamental parts. Giygas was fated to be defeated, and how he was defeated doesn't matter.

TOTU is omniscient, and considering it's the one allegedly doing the fatehax, yeah, it does cover all the events.

Ness has his blatant Low 2-C feat at very least. Him scaling to Giygas is another thing for is Low 1-C rating instead.

Which one, absorbing Magicant?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah and I don't think it holds up

Meh. It can be an explanation on why lol.

TOTU is omniscient, and considering it's the one allegedly doing the fatehax, yeah, it does cover all the events.

It doesn't directly affect everything in between the main events, Giygas boosting despite a whole device which tells the future didn't predict it proves such. If anything, it proves that no matter what Porky does, Giygas would lose against our heroes, boost or not.

Which one, absorbing Magicant?

Also, if you accept that in Mother 1 is needed a device to travel through it and items got there are real and can be carried even outside it.

Tho main one is him becoming the Universe thing.

 

[Armorchompy]

Meh. It can be an explanation on why lol.

Doesn't matter anyway, if it actually was his future self it would be a funky skeleton dude from a hit indie RPG, so clearly the feat is invalid. Duh.

It doesn't directly affect everything in between the main events, Giygas boosting despite a whole device which tells the future didn't predict it proves such. If anything, it proves that no matter what Porky does, Giygas would lose against our heroes, boost or not.

I mean, that could have just been part of fate, in the end the heroes win, so why couldn't it be.

Tho main one is him becoming the Universe thing.

Which I'm contesting, so this isn't really support for Ness being infinitely stronger than his teammates, since the main reason I'm contesting that is because I believe that Ness didn't literally become the universe.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Doesn't matter anyway, if it actually was his future self it would be a funky skeleton dude from a hit indie RPG, so clearly the feat is invalid. Duh.

...

I mean, that could have just been part of fate, in the end the heroes win, so why couldn't it be.

Because in the fate it was just said that Giygas will lose, not how. Giygas transforming wasn't something that was supposed to happen, Future Ness said that Giygas was explicitely defeated from Ness himself and not Player, but what matters is just Giygas losing from the Chosen ones, no matter how.

Which I'm contesting, so this isn't really support for Ness being infinitely stronger than his teammates, since the main reason I'm contesting that is because I believe that Ness didn't literally become the universe.

Nice, because I've already countered that.

But this is becoming circular as hell. I should wait more opinions from the actual supporters on the verse page, because this is becoming worthless.

 

[Armorchompy]

...

(I'm joking)

Because in the fate it was just said that Giygas will lose, not how. Giygas transforming wasn't something that was supposed to happen, Future Ness said that Giygas was explicitely defeated from Ness himself and not Player, but what matters is just Giygas losing from the Chosen ones, no matter how.

Again, TOTU is omniscient, everything is "supposed" to happen.

Nice, because I've already countered that.

No you haven't lol

But this is becoming circular as hell. I should wait more opinions from the actual supporters on the verse page, because this is becoming worthless.

You do realize that anyone can add themselves as a supporter at any time? Like, I hope you're not implying that I'm implied to know less because I'm not there because I can add myself in like, five seconds. Hell, being a supporter doesn't even mean you know the verse, there's a page dedicated to that. Which I could also add myself to in five seconds.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Again, TOTU is omniscient, everything is "supposed" to happen.

Already explained above.

No you haven't lol

Ah yes, because all you said was "metaphor" plus stuff with isn't supported from the game. It would be a metaphot if it was said something like "you and the universe are gonna share the same form" or another vague thing, but the statement is more than explicit and clear.

You do realize that anyone can add themselves as a supporter at any time? Like, I hope you're not implying that I'm implied to know less because I'm not there because I can add myself in like, five seconds.

You missed the point. What I meant is just that I'd want other opinions, because this is circular and ain't going anywhere.

 

[Armorchompy]

Ah yes, because all you said was "metaphor" plus stuff with isn't supported from the game.

Yeah, that and like twenty posts of additional explanations and other reasonings that you're ignoring.

You missed the point. What I meant is just that I'd want other opinions, because this is circular and ain't going anywhere.

That I can agree with.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Arguments for downgrades make more sense, so agree.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

StrymUltra is the one making a lot more sense to me for the most part. Unfortunately, I do not have the best sense of judgement regarding Tier 1 shenanigans, but the lightning appears to obviously be real lightning. I can agree that when used as an attack, characters don't necessarily seem to physically react to it as opposed to it attacking randomly. But Strym makes sense about it scaling to the attack speed of other PSI attacks via having similar nature and power sources. And even without multiversal cosmology information, Low 2-C is the absolute lowest the god tiers could be viewed as. Ness is clearly stated to transcend time and space when he becomes "One with the Universe", and Giygas having "More than enough power to end all existence had it not been for the existence of Ness" is also the most blatant fact about Giygas. And "All existence" is often debated to either mean the cosmology of the verse or just the space-time continuum they reside in. But this is spoken by a character clearly aware of many different realities and would thus more likely mean the former.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbh if whole blog ends up as rejected, all the verse should be deleted as @Oleggator originally said given all the verse is based on said blog.

As I said, I'm here only to prevent a downgrade from happening, but if happens to be rejected in its entirety, just nuke it and end it.

Other than the reason of me thinking from a lot of time that the blog is outdated and needs a remake, the original Mother team (@TheQuirkyBoy, @GiverOfThePeace, @VileShadows, @AmiEXE and the others) don't want to have anything to do on VBW anymore. I'm just here to still defend the arguments, nothing else, but if downgardes still happen and blog isn't used, just delete the verse and re-do it from 0, as I don't care about this site anymore, given that's not even worth it as the people who made Earthbound statistics what they are on VBW won't be here anymore, so the verse is dead anyway.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I disagree with downgrading the 5D cosmology as well

 

[Armorchompy]

Tbh if whole blog ends up as rejected, all the verse should be deleted as @Oleggator originally said given all the verse is based on said blog.

As I said, I'm here only to prevent a downgrade from happening, but if happens to be rejected in its entirety, just nuke it and end it.

Other than the reason of me thinking from a lot of time that the blog is outdated and needs a remake, the original Mother team (@TheQuirkyBoy, @GiverOfThePeace, @VileShadows, @AmiEXE and the others) don't want to have anything to do on VBW anymore. I'm just here to still defend the arguments, nothing else, but if downgardes still happen and blog isn't used, just delete the verse and re-do it from 0, as I don't care about this site anymore, given that's not even worth it as the people who made Earthbound statistics what they are on VBW won't be here anymore, so the verse is dead anyway.

If the blog were to be rejected, deleting the profiles would be pointless, they could easily be edited to fit lower statistics.

 

[Armorchompy]

I disagree with downgrading the 5D cosmology as well

... But I haven't been talking about the cosmology. The issues I brought up were fatehax and Ness' rating. No offense but if you're going to FRA at least read the actual debate.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, Armorchompy makes sense above, dealing with a verse that loves its metaphors is a bitch. I'm looking at you Warriors.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If the blog were to be rejected, deleting the profiles would be pointless, they could easily be edited to fit lower statistics.

What I mean is that:

• Blog is going to be remade anyway
• No one here cares about EarthBound anymore
• Original supporters won't be here anymore

Verse is dead anyways, downgrade or not. It doesn't have any more supporters and I don't even want to bother with it myself here, unless is cases like this one. Purging it in that case would be better as if is not, it would need a re work from 0 in general.

 

[StrymULTRA]

... But I haven't been talking about the cosmology. The issues I brought up were fatehax and Ness' rating. No offense but if you're going to FRA at least read the actual debate.

He talks about OP.

 

[Armorchompy]

No one here cares about EarthBound anymore

Clearly considering Oleggator made a CRT about it and I took a significant role in it at least two people do.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Clearly considering Oleggator made a CRT about it and I took a significant role in it at least two people do.

Yeah but is still not the original team of people who made it what it is now. Yeet it and re do it from 0, as is not even worth beating such a dead horse, remaking from 0 instead would fix a lot of this issues.