Earthbound: The War against Truth of the Universe (Also known as, massive downgrades)

[Chariot190]

"Can be" doesn't mean they are

Dude, people who aren't even the dreamer can straight up enter, interact and **** with Magicant's of others. There is no "can be", this is blatant proof that Magicant, while derived from dreams, is a physical locale.

If Magicant straight up didn't exist like you're trying to say, this wouldn't be possible, someone like Lloyd, a dude with zero psychic abilities, just a smart kid for all intents and purposes, wouldn't be able to do **** all or enter it or interact with anything? Not quite, he can enter it because while it's made of dreams, it is indeed a physical location that anyone can enter if given the chance, a normal person could go there and to them, it'd be just a normal place.

 

[Oleggator]

And in this case they are. Nothing contradicts Magicants being real.

And nothing in-lore tells it being real.

I don't understand headcanon. I'm sorry for this inability of mine.

Yet you are ToTU supporter.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And nothing in-lore tells it being real.

Ok I'll drop this. You're just ignoring evidence at this point. that 4 people have been repeating.

In this case, there are literal in game statements that describe Magicant as having real cosmology stuff. That's literally what Earthbound is about is mental things are literal.

Ness has always been one with destiny; the Ness that's playable in your party has always been an avatar of the true Ness. We cannot just ignore statements spoken by the Truth of the Universe.

And don't need to repeat what Strym basically said.

What we should do here? Wait @QuasiYuri? I've called him off site.

 

[Eficiente]

Based solely on what they're saying here

And in this case they are. Nothing contradicts Magicants being real.

Dude, people who aren't even the dreamer can straight up enter, interact and **** with Magicant's of others. There is no "can be", this is blatant proof that Magicant, while derived from dreams, is a physical locale.

If Magicant straight up didn't exist like you're trying to say, this wouldn't be possible, someone like Lloyd, a dude with zero psychic abilities, just a smart kid for all intents and purposes, wouldn't be able to do **** all or enter it or interact with anything? Not quite, he can enter it because while it's made of dreams, it is indeed a physical location that anyone can enter if given the chance, a normal person could go there and to them, it'd be just a normal place.

A place can be fictional and have all this characteristics in fiction. You say this as if there was no preced of this making up a fake place that doesn't exist/isn't physical, which is very much false.

 

[StrymULTRA]

A place can be fictional and have all this characteristics in fiction. You say this as if there was no preced of this making up a fake place that doesn't exist/isn't physical, which is very much false.

Uhm, it is real tho. Ness got his boost (and the whole of the journey was to get it) at Magicant, and in order to access another guy's Magicant, you need a physical portal. And in the series, travelling to other universes isn't new.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tho this is derailing, the point is about Ness existing as a literal universe, and ToTU being an active thing, and Oleggator seems to have failed to debunk both.

There are like 3 staff disagreements against him.

 

[Chariot190]

You say this as if there was no preced of this making up a fake place that doesn't exist/isn't physical, which is very much false.

Ok now in English, are you trying to say that the place that literally anyone ever can interact with, is completely corporal, is directly connected to the real world, is filled with living, sentient beings who are just as real as anything else, filled with objects that can come and go between worlds, and entirely unrelated people can enter and interact with the Magicant of SOMEONE ELSE, is actually not real and doesn't exist? Because that's what the dude above is arguing, he's saying it straight up doesn't exist.

What does everyone have the ability to interact with nonexistent things now? Does Lloyd or Teddy the two completely normal humans have the ability to **** with things with NEP now?

That's rhetorical, of course they don't, just because something is a dream world or is made from someone's dreams doesn't mean the world itself doesn't ******* exist, because in this case it does, hell it is literally the central hub of the first game.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

While I don't want to make incendiary comments, I feel like this is a spiteful revision, too, based on what I've seen from the OP here and in other threads. I'm sorry if that isn't the case or if I sound like a douche.

Anyway, I agree with Strym completely.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

While I don't want to make incendiary comments, I feel like this is a spiteful revision, too, based on what I've seen from the OP here and in other threads. I'm sorry if that isn't the case or if I sound like a douche.

Anyway, I agree with Strym completely.

I know you the OP, and it’s definitely not spite. The OP likes Earthbound and is very invested in its matchups

 

[StrymULTRA]

I know you the OP, and it’s definitely not spite. The OP likes Earthbound and is very invested in its matchups

The very fact that OP is purposely breaking 3 standards accepted since years and doesn't care about those tells me such.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

The very fact that OP is purposely breaking 3 standards accepted since years and doesn't care about those tells me such

Said standards are you continuously bringing up other verses having nothing to do with earthbound. Those verses are none of the OP’s concern

 

[StrymULTRA]

Said standards are you continuously bringing up other verses having nothing to do with earthbound. Those verses are none of the OP’s concern

Ignoring what @Ultima_Reality said and I bring up verses which are in the same situation. Ok sure. Make sure you understand 1st what's even discussed before blindly defending OP.

 

[Chariot190]

To be fair, comparisons do exist, it isn't like they aren't allowed to be made. It's only a issue if it's a false analogy or equivalence, if the comparison brought up is actually legit and analogous to the point being made, well then there is no issue in bringing them up as a example, as long as that isn't the only point being made.

Whether OP gives a **** about them doesn't matter, and there is no "standard" saying you can't bring up other verses if it's actually topical and connects to your point isn't a rule (Bringing up verses that literally don't matter or aren't a fair comparison obviously is bad tho).

 

[StrymULTRA]

Whether OP gives a **** about them doesn't matter, and there is no "standard" saying you can't bring up other verses if it's actually topical and connects to your point isn't a rule (Bringing up verses that literally don't matter or aren't a fair comparison obviously is bad tho).

To be fair, I brought up verses such as DDLC or Stellaris which are kinda in the same situation. If OP disagrees with these too, they should make a CRT in general against the Player being used in meta things, instead of focusing on just 1 verse, when others do for the same reason, otherwise this CRT will just fail.

 

[Chariot190]

I̵ ̵w̵a̵s̵ ̵r̵e̵p̵l̵y̵i̵n̵g̵ ̵t̵o̵ ̵l̵o̵u̵

 

[Ezra1414]

Just want to say that I agree completely with Oleggator and think the verse should be downgraded. ToTU / honestly almost everything in Strym's post feels like headcanon / fanfiction / wild speculation.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Just want to say that I agree completely with Oleggator and think the verse should be downgraded. ToTU / honestly almost everything in Strym's post feels like headcanon / fanfiction / wild speculation.

You can say it feels like "speculation, fanfiction and headcanon" but given the opposing side that disagrees with the op thinks otherwise says something about the argumentation.

I'm not saying Oleggator is wrong but coming into a thread and saying "A has greater arguments than B" without addressing why B's points are headcanon/fanfiction, is just flat out not contributory to the thread.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Just want to say that I agree completely with Oleggator and think the verse should be downgraded. ToTU / honestly almost everything in Strym's post feels like headcanon / fanfiction / wild speculation.

That's unnecessarily rude.

 

[Luckyfun]

This is my opinion. I think the statements are accurate and not flowery language. So i agree to keep the tiering.

 

[Zencha9]

yeah the raws are very clear haven't seen any legit counters beside headcanons or interpretations that don't make much sense in the verse's context
i completely agree with strym and chariot

 

[XXKINGXX69]

bum

 

[QuasiYuri]

So, after reading everything and searching stuff on my side, I agree with most of what Amorchompy said besides Magicant being useless. Sure it's a dream world, but it does have legit consequences.

Also it seems that people really misunderstand the point of the "Sanctuary"/"spots" Ness had to go to. No, they aren't making Ness become more "universal" or whatever:

Buzz Buzz said:

"To defeat Gyiyg...you will need to unite the earth's power with your own"
"There are eight locations on earth" -spots that are only yours"-that will draw out your power and strengthen you.

So we know that the goal is to strengthen him. When you arrive in Magicant, the reason why you went to those spots to become stronger is revealed:

"Ness, you have stood at all eight power spots of the earth. That was the requirement/condition for creating this realm in your mind known as Magicant."

Basically Ness going to these spots didn't make him fuse with the universe. They just were the condition to create his Magicant.

Also I don't know where people get the idea that "Future Ness has beaten Gygas" or that "Future Ness is reporting stuff to Ness". The moment this scene happens is when he got rid of the Evil in his Heart (which also gives an edge over Gygas) and it is in the Sea of Eden, which is "a place where you can touch the truth of the universe for just an instant.".
Given how the Apple of Wisdom that gave the information is said to be in Gygas' possession, it doesn't make much sense for Future Ness to report something like that.

Regardless, Ness did get a boost in Magicant, mainly by completing his quest of self blabla and destroying the Evil in his heart; but it never made him some universal mind being.

Regarding the "The time will come when every part of you will overlap with every part of the universe", the last sentence basically gives it away by precising that it referred to the final encounter with Gygas, aka "The moment when your destiny becomes one with the destiny of the universe".

As such, I agree with the downgrade, but don't want the Magicant to be dismissed as irrelevant, given how it is far from that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is kinda of ignoring the part where Ness is said that each part of him becomes one with the universe, so if he becomes one with it, the fate should logically be too so it's not a good argument tbh.

I agree with Magiciant being created by him, but he still absorbs it, making that still Low 2-C at absolute least.

And Porky powered up Giygas right because he'd lose normally against Ness without the latter's boost, and Ness said that's needed to defeat Giygas, and the latter's kinda repeated to be an universe buster.

Porky literally says that the Apple couldn't predict Giygas transformation on top of that too.

 

[QuasiYuri]

This is kinda of ignoring the part where Ness is said that each part of him becomes one with the universe, so if he becomes one with it, the fate should logically be too so it's not a good argument tbh

Except it changes the entire meaning. They "overlap" in that they share a similar fate in the final battle. Ness losing = rip world.

I agree with Magiciant being created by him, but he still absorbs it, making that still Low 2-C at absolute least.

Don't see how that's Low 2-C tho.

And Porky powered up Giygas right because he'd lose normally against Ness without the latter's boost, and Ness said that's needed to defeat Giygas, and the latter's kinda repeated to be an universe buster.

Because he would lose against the chosen ones. Which aren't just Ness.

Porky literally says that the Apple couldn't predict Giygas transformation on top of that too.

Yeah he does say that.

 

[Eficiente]

I agree with QuasiYuri but will see the replies to it, I hope they're concise.

 

[Oleggator]

So uhhhh... bump?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok, so from what I've gathered up to now it was accepted.

• MHS+ removal
• Rel+ being changed to "possibly" for Mother 2 charas
• Abilities reversion to what they were before the November CRT
• Removal of the blog
• Change of the calcs.

Rest seems still pretty controversial, so I think it should remain in discussion, but I think that these can be applied.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems alright for now, I will unlock the profiles but I still have defenses for some high tiers and such.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Seems alright for now, I will unlock the profiles but I still have defenses for some high tiers and such.

Done, you can lock.

 

[Oleggator]

Bumping

 

[Oleggator]

BUUuump!!

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'm still not keen on Tier 1. I think they set a horrible precedent for other verses with how we treat a canonical Player character, and I don't agree that it aligns with tier 1 requirements from all that I've heard in the past about this stuff.

The rest I don't really care about.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I do agree with QuasiYuri on the omnipresence evidence being flawed. Given the context of the entire sentence it's just talking about destinies overlapping, like, pretty clearly. Unless there's other evidence for becoming one with the universe it sounds flawed to me.