Dust_Collector
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The speed of Friezas supernova actually needs to be recalced as the current calc assumes Vegeta is 10 times the size of earth even though we only accept it as the same size as earth.
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Dragon Ball Z Multipliers Revision [Safe Version]
- Thread starter Dark649
- Start date
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- Tags
- dragon ball
- Status
Stefano4444
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And how much the speed will be affected by such factor? It would be downgraded or upgraded?
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It does have 10gs though . Also I remember someone calcing it as a Earth sized planet here. I'll try to find it
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@Dark
I agree mostly, but I really need to brought Shin's calc into the matter
Since, if it is accepted, should be aware the is close (not enough) to Large Star+, meaning that even being weaker than him could still gives us High 4-C
So I want to know (if his calc is accepted) how that would change the Buu and Cell Saga's Scaling
I agree mostly, but I really need to brought Shin's calc into the matter
Since, if it is accepted, should be aware the is close (not enough) to Large Star+, meaning that even being weaker than him could still gives us High 4-C
So I want to know (if his calc is accepted) how that would change the Buu and Cell Saga's Scaling
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Yeah, but I was refering to the fact thatDark649 said:
If Shin is weaker (sightly, not by much) than Buu Saga (Rusty) SS Gohan, wouldn't that affect the Cell Saga's Scaling?
Like, 2nd and 3rd Grade Saiyans shouldn't at least be Low End High 4-C with 4-C+ for SemiP Cell?
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Huh? Wait Cell Games Gohan or Buu Saga Gohan?
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Piccolo's statemnet?Dark649 said:
If it's the one about the tournament, 1) I think the original translation says that he forfeits just because Shin is a god
2) Even so, we don't know how strong Piccolo is, sure, stronger than Goten and Trunks, but theyre Android level, and Piccolo already surpassed that. And I don't remember any statement about him being stronger than SemiP Cell
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> If it's the one about the tournament, 1) I think the original translation says that he forfeits just because Shin is a god
Reading the Viz version I got the same impression. That he gave up because he was a high level god rather than a power gap.
Reading the Viz version I got the same impression. That he gave up because he was a high level god rather than a power gap.
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And that was accepted when....?Dark649 said:
Even assuming that, thr gap still pretty big IMO, Specially since Goku neither stopped training
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Piccolo, Vegeta and Goku grew stronger since the end of the Cell Saga, Vegeta trained hard enough to master his SS, unlock SS2 as such his potential was considered as interesting by Dabura alongside Goku and Rusty Gohan, the latter MSS is stronger than Piccolo. In the Cell Saga Gohan did not viewed the battle with Cell and Goku as little of impressive since he thought Goku was not at full power, which he was. It's why Gohan was stronger than Goku there, who shocked Vegeta by only showcasing only half his power.
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Yeah... I know that, I reread the manga recently... But that doesn't justify's piccolo's rating at all
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With this revision Post Spirit Room training Piccolo will be at least 4-C as he actually superior to Semi-Perfect Cell and a little behind SS Vegeta and Trunks after the second room training since he somewhat resisted the Cell Jr. attack, which will be at least 4-C. High 4-C is indeed for Cell, MSS Goku and Gohan. Like Vegeta and Goku, Piccolo likely never stopped training so him jumping from at least 4-C to High 4-C in the Buu Saga seems fine and he is still weaker to the other MSS, so the Goku mention in his profile will be replaced by words similar to this.
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If it makes any difference now, I'll just post my opinion on the previous discussion. I am obviously in support of kaioken multipliers due to the evidences Matt has already presented. I think Medeus' speed scaling makes perfect sense and I also agree with Dark's and Kep's AP/dura scaling.
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@Dark What about Vegeta and Trunks? Will they also be "At least 4-C"?
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That requires doing mathematical operations on power levels which are not consistent and not accepted. Without using power levels we have no way of knowing where this hypothetical Goku will stand if scaled to others, even if we consider his statement as legitimate. It's better to be safe than using 'possibly' ratings, especially when we already have solid ratings based on what is actually explicitly shown.Amexim said:
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@Axemin, we already disagreed with Massively FTL, since that seemed a bit much. I will say that Kid Buu did have a Massively FTL calc a while back, but we decided not to use it given that there were likely used Bibidi's ship to travel. However, that was before Kepekley was here, and he's really good at calc's so he could reevaluate that at some point. Destroying every single planet and star in a galaxy over the course of a few years could get good results. But for now, everyone superior to Frieza should just be At least FTL+.
Dark649 and Kep's suggestion regarding the tiers also looks great to me.
Dark649 and Kep's suggestion regarding the tiers also looks great to me.
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Again, given how Shin's calc is pretty close to High 4-C+Paleomario66 said:
I believe that even 2nd Grade Vegeta should be High 4-C with SemiP Cell at 4-C+
And Perfect Cell/Dabura and others at High 4-C+
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@AKM
No. It has nothing to do with Power Levels— the only thing we use for it is to say who is stronger or weaker. Where did you get that idea? I even spoke out against power levels being used like that.
You say we don't know where Goku with the KKx10 will stand compared to everyone else, when that's the exact and only decent use of power levels in the first place. We know that Goku would be a 900K, which is weaker than Frieza in his second form. Goku is in fact stronger than he would be with the KKx10. That is an objective fact. This is objectively true, and the only thing that's a problem is if Goku could actually use it or not.
What I don't understand is why we have to "play it safe" and ignore hypotheticals with extremely good foundation even though "possibly" is the exactly perfect word for this situation, right down to the definition of the word? What would you have to get to get a "possibly" on a profile if a statement with a great amount of validity but no explicit demonstration is not enough to warrant it? I see likelys on profiles for less strong reasons than this— and what is the most annoying is that we take Cell to be Solar System on a Statement alone (which I agree with). Why do we take statements without demonstrations as valid ratings, but we refuse statements without demonstrations that require almost a negligible amount of additional thought and reading comprehension to apply?
This is like refusing to upgrade a character in this scenario.
Character A is stronger than Character B. Later on in the story, it is revealed that Character C, who had higher feats than character A, but never fought Character A, as they play a mentor role, or even is a character that is just a strong top tier, is weaker than Character B. That means A beat B who is stronger than C. A beat B. But C is weaker than B. A was weaker than C before beating B, but now he is stronger than C.
This literally has the same amount of steps.
Goku says he can do a KKx10. Frieza is stronger than him even with that— just going off of how big the number is— no ratios, no math, nothing but basic understanding. 1M is more than 900K. We are supposed to treat the relationship of higher number vs lower number as equivalent to a statement of "character X is stronger than Character Y". We know that Goku would be a 900K on a scale compared to Frieza's 1M+ in his second released form.
So it is false to say we don't know where Goku would stack up to anyone. Because we do. It just takes a few seconds of thought.
We do not and should not preform math on the power levels. We should, however, use them as an indicator of strength— otherwise, Goku and Raditz are equal, because power levels mean nothing.
I repeat, we should not preform math on the power levels, and that has not been done to get these results. We DID however, use Power Levels to do what they're designed to do. Vaguely grasp who is stronger than who. Are you gonna sit here and say that Nappa isn't stronger than Raditz? Because, if we disregard all the statements about characters being weak after they compare power levels, It takes using power levels to understand that Raditz is weaker than Nappa.
Goku would be weaker than Second Form Frieza, even with the Kaioken that he believes he can do. This is a fact presented by the verse after slight analysis.
No. It has nothing to do with Power Levels— the only thing we use for it is to say who is stronger or weaker. Where did you get that idea? I even spoke out against power levels being used like that.
You say we don't know where Goku with the KKx10 will stand compared to everyone else, when that's the exact and only decent use of power levels in the first place. We know that Goku would be a 900K, which is weaker than Frieza in his second form. Goku is in fact stronger than he would be with the KKx10. That is an objective fact. This is objectively true, and the only thing that's a problem is if Goku could actually use it or not.
What I don't understand is why we have to "play it safe" and ignore hypotheticals with extremely good foundation even though "possibly" is the exactly perfect word for this situation, right down to the definition of the word? What would you have to get to get a "possibly" on a profile if a statement with a great amount of validity but no explicit demonstration is not enough to warrant it? I see likelys on profiles for less strong reasons than this— and what is the most annoying is that we take Cell to be Solar System on a Statement alone (which I agree with). Why do we take statements without demonstrations as valid ratings, but we refuse statements without demonstrations that require almost a negligible amount of additional thought and reading comprehension to apply?
This is like refusing to upgrade a character in this scenario.
Character A is stronger than Character B. Later on in the story, it is revealed that Character C, who had higher feats than character A, but never fought Character A, as they play a mentor role, or even is a character that is just a strong top tier, is weaker than Character B. That means A beat B who is stronger than C. A beat B. But C is weaker than B. A was weaker than C before beating B, but now he is stronger than C.
This literally has the same amount of steps.
Goku says he can do a KKx10. Frieza is stronger than him even with that— just going off of how big the number is— no ratios, no math, nothing but basic understanding. 1M is more than 900K. We are supposed to treat the relationship of higher number vs lower number as equivalent to a statement of "character X is stronger than Character Y". We know that Goku would be a 900K on a scale compared to Frieza's 1M+ in his second released form.
So it is false to say we don't know where Goku would stack up to anyone. Because we do. It just takes a few seconds of thought.
We do not and should not preform math on the power levels. We should, however, use them as an indicator of strength— otherwise, Goku and Raditz are equal, because power levels mean nothing.
I repeat, we should not preform math on the power levels, and that has not been done to get these results. We DID however, use Power Levels to do what they're designed to do. Vaguely grasp who is stronger than who. Are you gonna sit here and say that Nappa isn't stronger than Raditz? Because, if we disregard all the statements about characters being weak after they compare power levels, It takes using power levels to understand that Raditz is weaker than Nappa.
Goku would be weaker than Second Form Frieza, even with the Kaioken that he believes he can do. This is a fact presented by the verse after slight analysis.
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"Seemed a bit much" isn't an argument by itself, and definitely not a fair one. It's not even consistent with the scaling philosophy used on Dragon Ball with the AP and Durability. There are no feats beyond Dwarf Star Level and Relativistic showings, so Solar System— Hell, just Star Level or large Star Level is already too high.
The problem here is that no one believes that they're applying their logic inconsistently, when they are. The opposition is asking us to cherry pick because they believe the results of the multipliers inflate the characters stats in a way that is inconsistent with the verse. Problem is, this inflation is based in nothing more than fact and critical thinking. Any basis that these numbers are founded on is inarguable. Problem is, they're not even arguing that the multipliers aren't usable. They're arguing that MFTL is too high when FTL is achieved with the same logic. They're not being logical, and arguing with the events of the verse.
How is that a good argument?
The problem here is that no one believes that they're applying their logic inconsistently, when they are. The opposition is asking us to cherry pick because they believe the results of the multipliers inflate the characters stats in a way that is inconsistent with the verse. Problem is, this inflation is based in nothing more than fact and critical thinking. Any basis that these numbers are founded on is inarguable. Problem is, they're not even arguing that the multipliers aren't usable. They're arguing that MFTL is too high when FTL is achieved with the same logic. They're not being logical, and arguing with the events of the verse.
How is that a good argument?
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The difference is that there is a legit 4-B statement backed up by every source. And Buu actually has 4-B feats via destroying planets and stars; destroying Neutron Stars is calc'd at 4-B. Also Shin's High 4-C calc is legit, so there is a major difference. Also, I strongly prefer not to argue in circles.
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Doesn't negate the fact that we're still using the Kaioken scaling. The issues people have against it are that it's "too high", even though these results come from applying the Kaioken scaling where it factually applies.
Buu has a statement made by Shin that, to my knowledge, comes from a vague translation. Not a feat, unless that happened on panel.
And I already stated that there's literally no reason to doubt the idea that Goku using the Kaiokenx10 is possible for him. Goku wouldn't just shout out his maximum risky output of a dangerous desperation move unless he planned on using it if push comes to shove. He didn't even want to go to Kaiokenx3. So this statement has even more validity without using outside materials for Cell.
Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that you're not applying the speed aspect of the Kaioken 100% of the way to where it is applicable. Every thing in the OP is based on Goku being factually stronger than his previous use of the Kaioken would have or has made him.
This is fact. Goku in his base is stronger than each of his max uses of the Kaioken up until the Final Fight against Frieza. To say this is not true is a lie. To not take this into account is omitting facts. To say that there's not even enough evidence for a "possibly" is also ridiculous, but at least that's an actual opinion that can't be "objectively" wrong.
Buu has a statement made by Shin that, to my knowledge, comes from a vague translation. Not a feat, unless that happened on panel.
And I already stated that there's literally no reason to doubt the idea that Goku using the Kaiokenx10 is possible for him. Goku wouldn't just shout out his maximum risky output of a dangerous desperation move unless he planned on using it if push comes to shove. He didn't even want to go to Kaiokenx3. So this statement has even more validity without using outside materials for Cell.
Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that you're not applying the speed aspect of the Kaioken 100% of the way to where it is applicable. Every thing in the OP is based on Goku being factually stronger than his previous use of the Kaioken would have or has made him.
This is fact. Goku in his base is stronger than each of his max uses of the Kaioken up until the Final Fight against Frieza. To say this is not true is a lie. To not take this into account is omitting facts. To say that there's not even enough evidence for a "possibly" is also ridiculous, but at least that's an actual opinion that can't be "objectively" wrong.
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Tje calc is about creating StarsDark649 said:
Which Shin is responsible for
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NoDarkDragonMedeus said:
I know you had other material in that post that's arguably correct, but this bit is no.
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Which helps my point, thanks cal. And yes, I know that wasn't your intention, i'm Just being cheeky. Point is, if we're using the Kaioken scaling, we gotta use it wherever it applies. Otherwise the logic is inconsistent. So, let's end it with this.
Like Kep said. We either use the Kaioken or throw it away. Not using it is pretty faulty because everything the multiplier scaling is based on is true. The only difference between the scale and what he story says is that we're translating that directly into the profiles.
But if you want to leave it be, we should make every character in DBZ until the supreme Kai Dwarf Star Level, because allowing statements and rational extrapolation isn't a thing we do, given the fact that we're rejecting canon, valid, consistent, in story, verse acknowledged multipliers and scaling.
Like Kep said. We either use the Kaioken or throw it away. Not using it is pretty faulty because everything the multiplier scaling is based on is true. The only difference between the scale and what he story says is that we're translating that directly into the profiles.
But if you want to leave it be, we should make every character in DBZ until the supreme Kai Dwarf Star Level, because allowing statements and rational extrapolation isn't a thing we do, given the fact that we're rejecting canon, valid, consistent, in story, verse acknowledged multipliers and scaling.
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@Cal so wait, destroying neutron stars aren't 4-B?
@Anxiem from what I see, people are disagreeing with MFTL because of its hypothetical nature and reliance on power levels, not just "too high"
@Anxiem from what I see, people are disagreeing with MFTL because of its hypothetical nature and reliance on power levels, not just "too high"
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in the manga Buu never destroyed a star. So there can't really be calc for it
Stefano4444
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Destroying neutron stars is 4-B, but i think he was trying to say that is little to suggest that Kid Buu or Fat Buu have destroyed neutron stars during his rampage, since it was only stated that he has destroyed planets.SomebodyData said:
Then again SPC is already in the Kilofoe range, which make him easily capable to destroy neutron stars, so is not like this would make a big chance.
It does reliance on power level, but not in the sense you think.SomebodyData said:
He isn't claiming that because Goku 10x Kaioken has only a power level of 80,000 while Second Form Frieza has a power level of 1,000,000, we must assume that Second Form Frieza is 12.5 times stronger and faster than Goku 10x Kaioken.
He is claiming that because oku 10x Kaioken has only a power level of 80,000 while Second Form Frieza has a power level of 1,000,000, we must assume that Second Form Frieza would be stronger and faster than Goku 10x Kaioken, to an unknown extend.
They're not the same things.
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People were saying that it was an "outlier" earlier in the thread, which kinda clicks to being "too high" for Dragon Ball in my head. I might have been assuming that people held that position as well, based on the consistent use of the phrase "abuse of multipliers".
See, that critique isn't valid in this case, because the story demonstrates everything this "abuse" is referring to, point blank.
Matt has said that Zenkai Boosts are Inconsistent and Power Levels are unreliabile. Broadly, this is true. But if you apply this context to it, as well as specify how we are using both of those things, they become not just useful, but to the point where we're not even thinking about them in detail.
Goku did in fact get power boosts after being beaten and training. We don't even need to know how big any specific power increase is, or have his Zenkai boosts be consistent in how much they increase his power to know that he gets stronger than his previous version of himself while that version is using a legit and consistent multiplier that Matt has advocated for himself. We don't need to analyze ratios or do math to calculate the difference in the stats of a character based on their
The only use of the things Matt is criticizing the idea on is based on what is both blatantly obvious and simple to see in the story.
Goku is stronger than whatever version of himself when using the Kaioken, and we know that he is at least X times stronger than his base at that point when he used the Kaioken. This is basic power scaling that Matt himself used to get his own preferred rating.
Goku is at least as fast as Frieza's Supernova in his base. Goku's Kaioken is a linear multiplier. His x20 is equal to 50% Frieza. And so on. By understanding how power scaling and multipliers work, and using them whenever the story calls for it, you would get what is in the OP.
The Story itself explicitly shows Goku is stronger than the versions of himself that can or had used Kaioken. This is not a debate. If he is stronger than his Kaiokenx2 using self from the last arc in his base form, he is 2x stronger than his base form, given that his base is >= his Kaiokenx2 self.
This applies to every single situation listed in the OP. To go with Matt's method is to downplay Dragon Ball by appealing to feats purists who get uncomfortable using multipliers— when this is one of the rare instances when it's irrational not to use them.
Kaioken isn't inconsistent. The power boosts and power levels themselves don't need to be specific or deeply understood to comprehend the fact that Goku is at least stronger than his previous Kaioken self based on the fact that power boosts HAPPENED to make him stronger, and that Power Levels tell us whether Goku is or isn't stronger than the next stated number.
We don't have to break down Toriyama's intentions in stating that Goku was a 6 to Beerus' 10 to Whis' 15. We don't have to, nor should we build a mathematical scale to find ratios to calculate how strong Goku is exactly compared to Beerus.
Power Levels are made and used in the exact same way. They're a glorified measuring stick, which is used to indicate the gap in power between characters— not specific stats. Just like how the gap between 10 and 15 is bigger than the gap between 6 & 10, and that is used to tell us "Beerus and Goku have a smaller gap between them compared to Beerus and Whis". Frieza's Power Level of 530K compared to his power level of 1M+ is bigger than KKx10 Goku against Second Form Frieza.
No calculations, no additional math, just analyzing gaps. It's just a basic math measuring stick used to illustrate the difference in power between characters.
See, that critique isn't valid in this case, because the story demonstrates everything this "abuse" is referring to, point blank.
Matt has said that Zenkai Boosts are Inconsistent and Power Levels are unreliabile. Broadly, this is true. But if you apply this context to it, as well as specify how we are using both of those things, they become not just useful, but to the point where we're not even thinking about them in detail.
Goku did in fact get power boosts after being beaten and training. We don't even need to know how big any specific power increase is, or have his Zenkai boosts be consistent in how much they increase his power to know that he gets stronger than his previous version of himself while that version is using a legit and consistent multiplier that Matt has advocated for himself. We don't need to analyze ratios or do math to calculate the difference in the stats of a character based on their
The only use of the things Matt is criticizing the idea on is based on what is both blatantly obvious and simple to see in the story.
Goku is stronger than whatever version of himself when using the Kaioken, and we know that he is at least X times stronger than his base at that point when he used the Kaioken. This is basic power scaling that Matt himself used to get his own preferred rating.
Goku is at least as fast as Frieza's Supernova in his base. Goku's Kaioken is a linear multiplier. His x20 is equal to 50% Frieza. And so on. By understanding how power scaling and multipliers work, and using them whenever the story calls for it, you would get what is in the OP.
The Story itself explicitly shows Goku is stronger than the versions of himself that can or had used Kaioken. This is not a debate. If he is stronger than his Kaiokenx2 using self from the last arc in his base form, he is 2x stronger than his base form, given that his base is >= his Kaiokenx2 self.
This applies to every single situation listed in the OP. To go with Matt's method is to downplay Dragon Ball by appealing to feats purists who get uncomfortable using multipliers— when this is one of the rare instances when it's irrational not to use them.
Kaioken isn't inconsistent. The power boosts and power levels themselves don't need to be specific or deeply understood to comprehend the fact that Goku is at least stronger than his previous Kaioken self based on the fact that power boosts HAPPENED to make him stronger, and that Power Levels tell us whether Goku is or isn't stronger than the next stated number.
We don't have to break down Toriyama's intentions in stating that Goku was a 6 to Beerus' 10 to Whis' 15. We don't have to, nor should we build a mathematical scale to find ratios to calculate how strong Goku is exactly compared to Beerus.
Power Levels are made and used in the exact same way. They're a glorified measuring stick, which is used to indicate the gap in power between characters— not specific stats. Just like how the gap between 10 and 15 is bigger than the gap between 6 & 10, and that is used to tell us "Beerus and Goku have a smaller gap between them compared to Beerus and Whis". Frieza's Power Level of 530K compared to his power level of 1M+ is bigger than KKx10 Goku against Second Form Frieza.
No calculations, no additional math, just analyzing gaps. It's just a basic math measuring stick used to illustrate the difference in power between characters.
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Yes, Power Level's aren't linear. But we have them to understand how close characters are supposed to be in broad terms. We don't calculate using them for the entire verse to scale by.
Even if we say "Power Levels aren't linear, they're closer to exponential increases, so using the Kaioken on his stats may not properly scale to what 900K should be on that exponential/non-linear model!" It doesn't change the fact that Goku (who would know if he can or cannot use the Kaiokenx10) wouldn't even be strong enough to beat Frieza if he did use it, because those same Power Levels show that Goku wouldn't be able to beat Frieza even if they were linear!
Them being non-linear is often interpreted to mean that characters with power levels of 10,000 are comparable to top tiers like Frieza and/or vice versa where characters are inconsistently strong or weak all over the story with random high or low power levels. But this isn't the case at all. Every character with a higher power level is stronger than the one with a low power level. What's inconsistent is the ratios between their actual stats.
Point is, whether you want to apply the multipliers to correlate with the power levels or just use the power levels as a measuring stick and not think about anything else, Goku with the Kaiokenx10 wouldn't be able to fight Second Form Frieza regardless of how you use them.
And you do have to use them in some way. The only thing that's wrong with them is that you can't backwards scale with them, and forward scaling just gets you really ******* low results compared to what they should be. This whole process is being extra safe tbh.
Even if we say "Power Levels aren't linear, they're closer to exponential increases, so using the Kaioken on his stats may not properly scale to what 900K should be on that exponential/non-linear model!" It doesn't change the fact that Goku (who would know if he can or cannot use the Kaiokenx10) wouldn't even be strong enough to beat Frieza if he did use it, because those same Power Levels show that Goku wouldn't be able to beat Frieza even if they were linear!
Them being non-linear is often interpreted to mean that characters with power levels of 10,000 are comparable to top tiers like Frieza and/or vice versa where characters are inconsistently strong or weak all over the story with random high or low power levels. But this isn't the case at all. Every character with a higher power level is stronger than the one with a low power level. What's inconsistent is the ratios between their actual stats.
Point is, whether you want to apply the multipliers to correlate with the power levels or just use the power levels as a measuring stick and not think about anything else, Goku with the Kaiokenx10 wouldn't be able to fight Second Form Frieza regardless of how you use them.
And you do have to use them in some way. The only thing that's wrong with them is that you can't backwards scale with them, and forward scaling just gets you really ******* low results compared to what they should be. This whole process is being extra safe tbh.
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In the previous thread i implied that i'm fine with MFTL, but i'd like to apply these first, which are Me, Kep, Medeus and Aiden changes:
1] Son Goku:
- Vegeta Saga: Relativistic+ with Kaio-Kenx4.
- Ginyu Saga: Relativistic+ / At least Planet level Base.
- Frieza Saga: At least Dwarf Star level / FTL in Base, Small Star level with Kaio-Kenx10 and x20, with Spirit Bomb and as a Super Saiyan, FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.
- Android Saga: Small Star level / FTL in Base, Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan. - Cell Games: At least FTL+ / Star level in Base, Large Star level as a Mastered Super Saiyan. At least Large Star level MSS in the Buu Saga.
2] Vegeta:
- Frieza Saga: FTL after the third Zenkai Boost.
- Android Saga: Small Star level / FTL in Base during the Android Saga, Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.
- Cell Saga: Small Star level / FTL in Base, At least Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan, Large Star level as a Grade 2 Super Saiyan.
- Cell Games: Small Star level / FTL+ in Base, Large Star level / At least FTL+ as a Mastered Super Saiyan.
- Buu Saga: Star level / At least FTL+ in Base, At least Large Star level / At least FTL+ as a Mastered Super Saiyan.
3] Gohan:
- Frieza Saga: Relativistic to FTL during his rages by reaching and overwhelming Frieza. - Android Saga: Dwarf Star level / FTL.
- Cell Games and Buu Saga: Star level / At least FTL+ in Base, At least Large Star level as a Mastered Super Saiyan and as a Super Saiyan 2.
4] Piccolo:
- Frieza Saga: Dwarf Star level / FTL after fusing with Nail.
- Android Saga: Small Star level / FTL+ as a Super Namekian.
- Cell Saga: Star level / At least FTL+ after fusing with Kami. - Cell Games and Buu Saga: Large Star level / At least FTL+.
5] Future Gohan: At least Dwarf Star level / FTL in Base, Small Star level / FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.
5.5] Future Trunks:
- Mecha Frieza Saga: At least Dwarf Star level / FTL in Base, Small Star level / FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.
- Cell Saga: Small Star level / FTL in Base, At least Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan, Large Star level as a Grade 3 Super Saiyan [this form lowers speed].
- Cell Games: Small Star level / FTL+ in Base, Large Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.
6] Goten and Trunks: Small Star level / FTL in Base, Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.
7] Others:
- Ginyu and Shisame: Relativistic+.
- Frieza Forms: Dwarf Star level / FTL to Small Star level / FTL+ at 50%.
- King Cold, Android 19 and 20: Small Star level / FTL+.
- Android 18, 17, Imperfect Cell, 16, Kibito and Yakon [the latter had his attacks easily being dodged by Base Goku]: Star level / At least FTL+.
- Semi-Perfect Cell: Star level+ / At least FTL+.
- Cell Jr.: Large Star level / At least FTL+.
- Shin and Dabura: At least Large Star level / At least FTL+.
- Tournament of Power Krillin, 18, Tien, Roshi, Ganos and etc. remains the same since are far stronger than Buu Saga Base Gohan and Semi-Perfect Cell, they get: At least FTL+.
1] Son Goku:
- Vegeta Saga: Relativistic+ with Kaio-Kenx4.
- Ginyu Saga: Relativistic+ / At least Planet level Base.
- Frieza Saga: At least Dwarf Star level / FTL in Base, Small Star level with Kaio-Kenx10 and x20, with Spirit Bomb and as a Super Saiyan, FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.
- Android Saga: Small Star level / FTL in Base, Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan. - Cell Games: At least FTL+ / Star level in Base, Large Star level as a Mastered Super Saiyan. At least Large Star level MSS in the Buu Saga.
2] Vegeta:
- Frieza Saga: FTL after the third Zenkai Boost.
- Android Saga: Small Star level / FTL in Base during the Android Saga, Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.
- Cell Saga: Small Star level / FTL in Base, At least Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan, Large Star level as a Grade 2 Super Saiyan.
- Cell Games: Small Star level / FTL+ in Base, Large Star level / At least FTL+ as a Mastered Super Saiyan.
- Buu Saga: Star level / At least FTL+ in Base, At least Large Star level / At least FTL+ as a Mastered Super Saiyan.
3] Gohan:
- Frieza Saga: Relativistic to FTL during his rages by reaching and overwhelming Frieza. - Android Saga: Dwarf Star level / FTL.
- Cell Games and Buu Saga: Star level / At least FTL+ in Base, At least Large Star level as a Mastered Super Saiyan and as a Super Saiyan 2.
4] Piccolo:
- Frieza Saga: Dwarf Star level / FTL after fusing with Nail.
- Android Saga: Small Star level / FTL+ as a Super Namekian.
- Cell Saga: Star level / At least FTL+ after fusing with Kami. - Cell Games and Buu Saga: Large Star level / At least FTL+.
5] Future Gohan: At least Dwarf Star level / FTL in Base, Small Star level / FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.
5.5] Future Trunks:
- Mecha Frieza Saga: At least Dwarf Star level / FTL in Base, Small Star level / FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.
- Cell Saga: Small Star level / FTL in Base, At least Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan, Large Star level as a Grade 3 Super Saiyan [this form lowers speed].
- Cell Games: Small Star level / FTL+ in Base, Large Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.
6] Goten and Trunks: Small Star level / FTL in Base, Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.
7] Others:
- Ginyu and Shisame: Relativistic+.
- Frieza Forms: Dwarf Star level / FTL to Small Star level / FTL+ at 50%.
- King Cold, Android 19 and 20: Small Star level / FTL+.
- Android 18, 17, Imperfect Cell, 16, Kibito and Yakon [the latter had his attacks easily being dodged by Base Goku]: Star level / At least FTL+.
- Semi-Perfect Cell: Star level+ / At least FTL+.
- Cell Jr.: Large Star level / At least FTL+.
- Shin and Dabura: At least Large Star level / At least FTL+.
- Tournament of Power Krillin, 18, Tien, Roshi, Ganos and etc. remains the same since are far stronger than Buu Saga Base Gohan and Semi-Perfect Cell, they get: At least FTL+.
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@Stefano
I'm saying that we know the extent of Frieza form 2's power difference over Base Goku is at least x10. Goku using the x10 KK wouldn't be enough, no matter how you read the story.
But, even if that is too much thinking to put as a hard rating, what is wrong with a "POSSIBLY"? Considering there's a lot of valid thought behind it and it would be a good as **** compromise to shut me the hell up!?
I'm saying that we know the extent of Frieza form 2's power difference over Base Goku is at least x10. Goku using the x10 KK wouldn't be enough, no matter how you read the story.
But, even if that is too much thinking to put as a hard rating, what is wrong with a "POSSIBLY"? Considering there's a lot of valid thought behind it and it would be a good as **** compromise to shut me the hell up!?
- sigh*
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