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Dragon Ball AP Ratings Upgrade

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"Character A couldn't break a brick wall, so they should remain 7-C instead of becoming 5-C"
Roshi getting harmed by machinegun bullets and Goku not being able to dent a brick wall contradicts all values above 9-B,
Why is the optimal solution to upgrade them to even more insane heights than to consider downgrading them, or just keeping them the same as they are?
 
Why is the optimal solution to upgrade them to even more insane heights than to consider downgrading them, or just keeping them the same as they are?
I mean, I ain't really arguing against downgradin em, just about using anti-feats that already contradict their ratings
 
Oh yeah you just forgot about the literally uncountable anti-feats and tier 8 feats from that Era that are quadrillions of joules apart from High 6-A, unlike Vegeta who has no real anti-feat other than a vague statement. This isn't even remotely comparable.
I mean if Pilaf Saga Goku is more than 1/20th of 22nd Budokai Goku then anything that's an antifeat for Pilaf Saga is technically an antifeat to the current rating. 🤷
 
Why is the optimal solution to upgrade them to even more insane heights than to consider downgrading them, or just keeping them the same as they are?
That's not what they are arguing? They are saying that if 22nd Budokai Goku is gonna stay at 5-C, then Pilaf Goku should downscale. You are arguing against 22nd Budokai Goku even being 5-C in the first place.
 
I mean if Pilaf Saga Goku is more than 1/20th of 22nd Budokai Goku then anything that's an antifeat for Pilaf Saga is technically an antifeat to the current rating. 🤷
Or...

And hear me out...
It's an anti-feat for this backscaling in the first place.

You'd have to argue Moon level is an outlier and good luck with that because I'm here and I won't let that happen. Also the statement is very clearly referring to a power level jump.
 
"Character A couldn't break a brick wall, so they should remain 7-C instead of becoming 5-C"
Roshi getting harmed by machinegun bullets and Goku not being able to dent a brick wall contradicts all values above 9-B,
Oh I'm sorry I forgot about the part where piercing damage is suddenly not a thing anymore.

Also, it's one tier apart.
Also, we DO have feats in the Tier 8 range where we're ranking these characters.
What the heck do any of us have to back up High 6-A Pilaf Saga Goku? Nothing, just insufficient proof.
Btw Master Shen and Cyborg Tao upscale from Chiaotzu so they should probably be upgraded to 5-C
Why weren't they 5-C in the first place?
 
You just did it yourself by providing reasoning Goku can't be 6-A 😭
That's an outlier FOR THE EARLIER KEY. For Christ's sake, think about it, this DOESN'T break scaling for 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi Goku, it only breaks scaling for Pilaf Saga Goku. Furthermore we're raining with several Moon level feats in Early Dragon Ball, so consistency is there. Why do you assume we have to take this backscaling as an "end-all be-all"? Simply the author not knowing basic math.
Based on?
"He's almost 20x stronger"
Gap between Pilaf Goku's BP and 22nd Budokai Goku's BP is 18x.
 
I mean if Pilaf Saga Goku is more than 1/20th of 22nd Budokai Goku then anything that's an antifeat for Pilaf Saga is technically an antifeat to the current rating. 🤷
The statement isn't even about 22nd Budokai Goku, its just him after his Korin Training. After words he trains in preperation for the 22nd Budokai for 3 years
 
Oh I'm sorry I forgot about the part where piercing damage is suddenly not a thing anymore.
let's say the tip of the bullet is 1mm in diameter or an area of 0.007854cm^2. Surface area of an adult man is 18,000 cm^2. Divide the area of human by area of bullet tip and you get 2291825.82124. The energy of a 12g bullet shot out of a .357 magnum is 790.
790*2291825.82124=1810542398.78 joules or 0.43 tons of tnt - 8-C. Basically to tank bullets you need to upscale from this

BUT (and that's a pretty big but) this calc is inaccurate. Why? Simply put, the 790J won't be transferred via just the tip, it comes from the bullet's full impact. Thus, the results for full on tanking it would be in 9-B, what i did was an overexaggerated approximation.
What the heck do any of us have to back up High 6-A Pilaf Saga Goku? Nothing, just insufficient proof.?
Nothing Tier 6, but Monster Carrot does have a High 7-C durability feat
 
The statement isn't even about 22nd Budokai Goku, its just him after his Korin Training. After words he trains in preperation for the 22nd Budokai for 3 years
It's talking about 22nd Budokai Goku, that's why the title has 22nd and he has a PL of 180, ye can see it here
 
That's an outlier FOR THE EARLIER KEY. For Christ's sake, think about it, this DOESN'T break scaling for 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi Goku, it only breaks scaling for Pilaf Saga Goku.
Character A destroys mountain.
Character C tanks a hit from Character A.
Character C says Character B is his direct equal in terms of physical strength & durability. He has no reason to lie.
Character B gets hurt by bullets.


Are you seriously trying to tell me it'd be reasonable to have C at mountain level dura and B at less than bullet level?
Let's stop the nonsense. If it's an outlier for the early key to scale than it calls into question the later key.
 
I mean, if you look at it from a certain angle, the difference between High 7-C/High 6-A and 5-C/5-A (Close to High 5-A) ain't that much
Is your math off?

EDIT: The gap between High 7-C and High 6-A is 2.33002291e12x
The gap between "Far higher than 5-C" and 5-A is 556935484x
And the gap is far smaller than that because we don't even know how much stronger than Roshi Goku was. And I even took the highest possible 5-A rating and put it against the lowest possible value of 5-C, and it's still a much smaller gap with NO ANTI FEATS vs a MASSIVE GAP with SEVERAL ANTI-FEATS
Character C says Character B is his direct equal in terms of physical strength & durability.
Do I have to explain to you that this is a false equivalent to the point presented in this scenario?

Feats take precedence over guide statements, ffs. It CANNOT be an outlier because the Moon level feats from 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi AND the Building level feats from 21st Budokai Tenkaichi take precedence. If you want to act arrogant, I'll dismantle your argument like I'd do to an arrogant person.
The 20x gap which is sourced from secondary canon is inconsistent with PRIMARY CANON, therefore the 20x gap has to go. Your example is useless to answer this dilemma.
 
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You'd have to do both to go with your option. There are antifeats everywhere in the series.
Do you actually have a problem processing the fact that a Tier 9/8 Anti-Feat towards a Tier 8 character is far less damning than it would be if the Character was FLIPPING Tier 6?

Do you not understand that? Does that not register for you? That Tier 9 to Tier 8 Anti-Feats are NOT relevant for Tier 8 characters, but ARE a problem for Tier 6 characters? Is that hard to understand? Do you realize how much of a tomfoolery it is to put both under the same balance?
 
Feats take precedence over guide statements, ffs. It CANNOT be an outlier because the Moon level feats from 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi AND the Building level feats from 21st Budokai Tenkaichi take precedence. If you want to act arrogant, I'll dismantle your argument like I'd do to an arrogant person.
The 20x gap which is sourced from secondary canon is inconsistent with PRIMARY CANON, therefore the 20x gap has to go. Your example is useless to answer this dilemma.
Your argument up to this point was never related to "Feats vs Statements." It was arguing that the outlier applies to one but not the other. Don't play these stupid ass games because you're upset and pretend I argued against that.
That Tier 9 to Tier 8 Anti-Feats are NOT relevant for Tier 8 characters
In what universe are Tier 9 antifeats not relevant to tier 8 characters? It being less relevant to tier 6 in your eyes doesn't take away from the fact that it's Tier 9. Doesn't matter if you are Universe Level, Town Level, or Planet Level, there is a problem if a gun is hurting you.
 
Still fixated on whether or not we should allow downscaling from the Frieza Saga to the BoZ and how the Oozaru multipliers should fit into tho, its still an issue soo
 
Still fixated on whether or not we should allow downscaling from the Frieza Saga to the BoZ and how the Oozaru multipliers should fit into tho, its still an issue soo
Personally I'm against it. We don't need to backscale characters as far back as possible.

But I can understand why some people would be okay with it, and if other staff member vote to approve it then that's fair enough.
 
because you're upset
Stop projecting, it makes you look even worse.
It was arguing that the outlier applies to one but not the other.
It argued that downscaling from a higher value that's completely outside of reality for that earlier version is an outlier only for the earlier version.

Why?
Let's explain, shall we?

The Moon level key, has the actual damn feat to back it up. The Moon level key has close to no anti-feats for this level.

On the other hand,
The earlier key, which is going to be downscaled to Multi-Commie level, has no actual feat to back it up. Several anti-feats that agree with Tier 8 instead. And is portrayed generally below Tier 8/7. That's why it doesn't get to keep the High 6-A, and why the future key gets to keep the 5-C. Did that get through?

In what universe are Tier 9 antifeats not relevant to tier 8 characters?
"In what universe?"
R: This one.

It's a smaller gap, and it's in that range of feats that writers simply don't know how much joules goes into "seemingly superhuman" feats. Tier 9 anti-feats are not relevant for Tier 8 characters, especially if said Tier 8 character has a consistent streak of Tier 8 feats to back up it's rating.
It being less relevant to tier 6 in your eyes
It's not in my eyes, stop trying to make this into a personal take.

It's math.
It's facts.
It's basic fricking logic.
Being hurt by a gun when you're supposed to tank entire planets thrown at you is of a FAR GREATER inconsistency than Tier 8, which is far less obvious to the eyes of the reader, or the writer.

One is obvious, the other one ISN'T.
There is a problem if a gun is hurting you.
Ahem.
  1. It's only an anti-feat if it pierces through you.
  2. Even if you skin doesn't break, it shouldn't mean you wouldn't feel pain. Durability and Pain are two different things.
  3. Piercing Damage is a thing in fiction and, like everything else if every shounen, EVER, it's not about math.
It comes to a point where the Tier 9 feat is the outlier, since we've got a ton of Tier 8 feats, both for power and durability
 
"Character A couldn't break a brick wall, so they should remain 7-C instead of becoming 5-C"
Roshi getting harmed by machinegun bullets and Goku not being able to dent a brick wall contradicts all values above 9-B,
Btw Master Shen and Cyborg Tao upscale from Chiaotzu so they should probably be upgraded to 5-C
Master Roshi was able to catch machine gun bullets with his fingers like they were nothing. Some would also argue that Goku should be 5-C in Ozaru form at least 21st budokai era since Master Roshi didn't consider himself able to stop him without blowing up the moon. He killed Grandpa Gohan who gave post Korin training Goku a lot of trouble at the time even prior to the beginning of Dragon Ball.

Cyborg Tao should be 5-C since he > Chiaotzu > Confirmed to have surpassed Roshi. But I feel like the Master Shen example might be pushing it given he is officially weaker than even regular Tao.
 
Alright I added back the Oozaru multipliers, backscaling BoZ/Saiyan Saga characters from First Form Frieza and updated the Original Dragon Ball segment a bit. If staff wants to change their vote please do so
 
Alright I added back the Oozaru multipliers, backscaling BoZ/Saiyan Saga characters from First Form Frieza and updated the Original Dragon Ball segment a bit. If staff wants to change their vote please do so
They're currently accepted, so that's another thread. This one is too damn long and honestly we should start all over with all the information compilled her.e
 
I also agree on making another thread for AP ratings, I just don't wanna be the one to do it
 
Adem again with the examples that add nothing to the conversation. Also, please prove that the door of a guy who can create Androids with Star level durability is made out of regular metal, and not, you know, the same material the Androids are made out of?
5-B metal, but yeah, neat stuff
Master Roshi was able to catch machine gun bullets with his fingers like they were nothing. Some would also argue that Goku should be 5-C in Ozaru form at least 21st budokai era since Master Roshi didn't consider himself able to stop him without blowing up the moon. He killed Grandpa Gohan who gave post Korin training Goku a lot of trouble at the time even prior to the beginning of Dragon Ball.

Cyborg Tao should be 5-C since he > Chiaotzu > Confirmed to have surpassed Roshi. But I feel like the Master Shen example might be pushing it given he is officially weaker than even regular Tao.
I thought it was the opposite? Max Power Roshi could have killed Oozaru Goku with the kamehameha (Yamcha sure thought so, although I don't know if he had Ki sensing at this time) but decided to blow up the moon, so he doesn't, ya know, kill Goku. Although, if that's the case, we kinda have to downscale 21st Budokai Goku to High 6-A via Oozaru downscaling and yada yada,
BoZ Oozaru Goku only had a PL of 100, so he'd be weaker than everyone (We have a PL on) from the 22nd Budokai, so don't think we can give 5-C from that,

Master Shen is pretty blatantly above Yamcha's level, since it's only when Roshi buffed up did Tien say that Roshi was even stronger than Shen
“This geezer is absolutely unbelievable. I don’t know who he is, but his power goes above even Lord Tsuru-sennin…!”
Shen was also seconds away from killing Chiaotzu, so him being anything below 5-C doensn't really work
YnHRtoK.png

(Btw I tried looking for anything that compared Tao to Shen but I found nothing)
 
5-B metal, but yeah, neat stuff

I thought it was the opposite? Max Power Roshi could have killed Oozaru Goku with the kamehameha (Yamcha sure thought so, although I don't know if he had Ki sensing at this time) but decided to blow up the moon, so he doesn't, ya know, kill Goku. Although, if that's the case, we kinda have to downscale 21st Budokai Goku to High 6-A via Oozaru downscaling and yada yada,
BoZ Oozaru Goku only had a PL of 100, so he'd be weaker than everyone (We have a PL on) from the 22nd Budokai, so don't think we can give 5-C from that,

Master Shen is pretty blatantly above Yamcha's level, since it's only when Roshi buffed up did Tien say that Roshi was even stronger than Shen

Shen was also seconds away from killing Chiaotzu, so him being anything below 5-C doensn't really work
YnHRtoK.png

(Btw I tried looking for anything that compared Tao to Shen but I found nothing)
Yamcha comparing Max Power to Ozaru was mainly hypothetical, no one really knows. The PL of only 100 is a little on the subjective side + contradicts the fact that he still killed Grandpa Gohan who was on similar grounds to Korin training Goku.

That was before Chiaotzu upscaled from Roshi, though Tien comparing Roshi to Shen and/or himself may have merit but that would inherently make Tao and post Korin training Goku, Korin and Granpa Gohan all 5-C. Shen does mention that "He was always jealous of his brother's superior strength."
 
Yamcha comparing Max Power to Ozaru was mainly hypothetical, no one really knows. The PL of only 100 is a little on the subjective side + contradicts the fact that he still killed Grandpa Gohan who was on similar grounds to Korin training Goku.

That was before Chiaotzu upscaled from Roshi, though Tien comparing Roshi to Shen and/or himself may have merit but that would inherently make Tao and post Korin training Goku, Korin and Granpa Gohan all 5-C. Shen does mention that "He was always jealous of his brother's superior strength."
It's also higher than 100, by a lot;
He had trained with Kami at the time, if anything, the Oozaru then would likely be stronger than even Piccolo (If Goku had a power level of 20)
 
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