Dragon Ball Z Multipliers Revision [Safe Version]

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Kaizenshuu is where the Kaioken multiplying power levels came from; though there are instances in which it did multiply PL's; Such as Base Goku being over 8000, and Kx3 shattering a scouter once it reached around 22,000. And base Goku officially being 90,000 when he fights Ginyu; statement roughly guessed by Ginyu in the manga, seemed confident that it "Wouldn't surpass 120,000", and then Kx2 was 180,000 shown on scouter. But those are the only canon instances. Let's not use PL's or the 900,000 assumption and just treat Kaioken as the only linear multiplier.

 

[Stefano4444]

DarkDragonMedeus, Amexim

Regardless that factor, Massively FTL and even Massively FTL+ speed can still be achievable since (as i have pointed out along others) there is plenty of evidence about Goku, Vegeta and Gohan reaching and even suprassing Frieza in Base Form.

Meaning Buu Saga Saiyans would get an additional 40x Multiplier thanks of their SSj1 Form alone (since is not like between sagas the SSj1 have chanced), and that without even taking intro account SSj2 and SSj3 Forms.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

But the very first instance in the series is the only time a 40x multiplier actually is applicable. In later scenarios, the gap between base form and SSJ1 transformations closes more. And other times, the gap in power is actually wider; SSJ2 is actually way stronger than 2x power wise during Cell saga, but speed is not noticeably different.

 

[Stefano4444]

But the very first instance in the series is the only time a 40x multiplier actually is applicable. In later scenarios, the gap between base form and SSJ1 transformations closes more.

That's never happen, never during the series has been imply that the SSj1 form had somehow become weaker (or better that the multiplier given from that transformation has become smaller) after the Frieza Saga.

At most it had become less impressive during the Cell Saga and irrilevant in the Buu Saga, since at that point basically all saiyans would archive such form, but there was no actual change.

Not when in the Cell Saga Goku was able to actually mastered the SSj1 form, allowing him to archive the SSj1 Full Power transformation which should give him the same power/speed multiplier minus the great consume of Ki.

So no, having the SSj1 form in the Buu Saga to be inferior to its Frieza Saga countepart it just an unfounded hypothesis.

And other times, the gap in power is actually wider; SSJ2 is actually way stronger than 2x power wise during Cell saga, but speed is not noticeably different.

Pretty sure the was also a notable difference in speed, since Gohan was able to snatches the senzu beans from Cell's hand before the latter could even notice it and by how he was able to speedblitz all the Cell Juniors (when not even Goku was capable to doing so).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Never saiyan the transformations become weaker, but rather their baseforms become stronger and the transformations in turn required less energy consumption; or rather, there are instances where baseforms grew stronger faster than the transformed forms did.

And that's a different example, Gohan was already much stronger and faster than the others in SSJ1, and there's no proof of a multiplier. And going SSJ2, he utterly stomped Perfect Cell, which explains the power difference.

 

[Stefano4444]

Never saiyan the transformations become weaker, but rather their baseforms become stronger and the transformations in turn required less energy consumption; or rather, there are instances where baseforms grew stronger faster than the transformed forms did.

And how any of that prove that the SSj1's multiplier cannot be apply after the Frieza Saga? The Saiyans having a large increase of power in their base form isn't going to make the SSj1's multiplier smaller or bigger.

It only means that Buu Saga Goku no longer need to use his ssj forms for win a fight again someone as strong as Frieza.

And that's a different example, Gohan was already much stronger and faster than the others in SSJ1, and there's no proof of a multiplier. And going SSJ2, he utterly stomped Perfect Cell, which explains the power difference.

Still not enough to defeat Perfect Cell, and SSj2 must have a multiplier since it had increase his speed and power enough to easily overcome Cell, the only problem is that we do not know about how much so we cannot give random number.

While with the SSj1 form, we have all agree that it must be at least 2 times better than the 20x Kaioken.

 

[Amexim]

Why is not using 900,000 ok? Possibly exists for a reason. This refusal to use a possibly is based on what?

 

[Amexim]

This is a really scummy way to refuse to apply a Possibly.

 

[Stefano4444]

Why is not using 900,000 ok? Possibly exists for a reason. This refusal to use a possibly is based on what?

Probabily because accept it means relying directly on Power Leves for scaling, which is something many would oppose or at least be unsure, while the Kaioken Multiplier is a much more safe option to use.

 

[ByAsura]

Goku did state that he's gained so much power that he's scared of it after getting his Zenkai boost. This should put it above the 10x Kaioken he believed his previous level capable of. [1]

Also, both Daizenshuu and the series confirm this multiplier is both power levels and strength, speed, durability, etc, not just one or the other, by showing that the power levels directly scale to the boost. One great example is when Goku with over 8000 uses kaioken x2, and is inferior to a suppressed and full power Vegeta, then surpasses him with a 3x kaioken. Another is Goku being 180,000 after he doubled his 90,000 pl. [2] [3]

That's not to say I actually agree with using the potential 10x, just that Goku would indeed be faster, both using and not using Kaioken to power levels.

 

[Stefano4444]

Well then, Post Zenkai Base Goku believing to have surpassed his previous peak of strength should be enough proof for the 10x times power/speed boost.

 

[Jobbo]

Kaioken x2 Namek Goku should indeed scale to Oozaru Vegeta. Don't know why that was rejected, the 10x multiplier is stated in the series.

 

[Amexim]

Just because people don't like something for very little rational reason doesn't mean the possibly is in valid. This fear is based in nothing relevant to this specific use. All fears associated with using power levels for scaling come directly with using math on them to determine the exact strength of the characters, not using the fact that the Kaioken boosts the number to whatever amount and that number determines how strong Goku would be compared to someone else broadly.

This fear is literally based in nothing but "ew, it feels icky", since, once again, we're using the PLs as a scaling tool/measuring sticks, just as they were intended, and not calculating a character's stats based on them specifically.

We know Goku should be stronger than KKx10, now, even without them. With them in play, we're 100% sure Frieza and Piccolo are superior to that version of him. We're literally only doing what the verse itself does to Kaioken with PLs and using that as a statement of strength. That's it. To deny that method is to deny the use of power levels period— which is pointless when the series establishes clearly that having a higher power level means you're superior to someone stat wise.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We're arguing in circles at this point, the list Dark649 gave out above what was accepted, and this thread is over 400 posts long now. Anyone Content Mod or above willing to update the profiles accordingly and then we can close the thread?

 

[Stefano4444]

The one where it use the 10x Kaioken or the one who don't use it?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The one where we don't use it is the one accepted by the staff and that Antvasima says makes sense.

 

[Amexim]

Can I make a crt for possibly then?

 

[Dark649]

Can I make a crt for possibly then?

Yes. I have applied the revision so i'm fine, for the Ginyu Saga FTL KKx10 5-A Goku and MFTL to MFTL+ [which i am fine with them] speed boost starting from Frieza discussion that should be made/discussed in another ctr. thread, which you can safely make.