Dragon Ball Z Multipliers Revision [Safe Version]

[Amexim]

Boss, the definition on the AP page literally has the word Hypothetically on it. Just give it to me.

"Possibly

Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should also be indeterminate."

Not to mention it seems that giving out a possibly is even allowed when there's "less viable power scaling". With its probability being "indeterminate"? I feel like I know what that means, but maybe i'm stupid.

Doesn't that sentence as a whole mean that it doesn't matter how likely the hypothetical situation is, so long as it is a real possibility and not some headcanon, obviously?

Sounds like this situation. I'mma be unfiltered, this sounds like bias. Like, I don't believe it's on purpose, nor with malice or hate against Dragon Ball, because honestly, I think people are just afraid of being called out for listing a character high with no concrete feats, despite the reasoning being logical for it being logical. I think this is just a knee jerk reaction. But how can people not see how obvious these criterion fit this situation?

 

[Amexim]

Like, I have been calm for 2-3 days, and I'm not even mad at anyone in particular. It's just frustrating because the "possibly" is right there, no one agrees despite it being a rule, and if I say anything to call anyone out, I could get banned.

Matt and everyone and their mother with a colored name can call actual bullshit bullshit, but I can't? I feel like that's not fair. And if admins don't care, I would really appreciate being told honestly.

 

[Dark649]

I understand, but it would be better to calm down and stop making other posts about the possibly.

 

[Ugarik]

As I remember Piccolo stated Vegeta was equal to 18 but she beat him because of her infinite stamina

 

[Dark649]

As I remember Piccolo stated Vegeta was equal to 18 but she beat him because of her infinite stamina.

Vegeta fought well against her, but once his stamina dropped 18 gained the upper hand and broke his arm.

 

[Amexim]

Why? Isn't being able to use the definitions of the Wiki one of the most important parts of the Wiki? Why should I drop an important argument? I could calm down, sure, but don't tell me to go silently sit in a corner because no one will agree with me when anyone who claims to try to be "objective" should.

Not saying you're trying to be mean on purpose.

I'm stating facts, and wiling to compromise, because I could really go balls to the wall with multipliers if I wanted to. To me, all of this is really safe Low-balling, and scrutinizing it further seems unfair, especially given how inconsistent rulings and ratings on this site are made.

If we're not willing to concede an argument, no matter what color your name is, then you might as well just mob rule the whole wiki, because not listening to anyone won't make for a good forum based wiki.

I'll say what Kep did. We either use the multipliers properly, or we don't at all. And if we want to be consistent with the verse and as accurate as possible, we probably should.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Here . Though considering how easily Trunks was smashed by 17/18 and how shocked Vegeta was by Kami Piccolo they likely always were stronger. Just not enough to instantly stomp Vegeta.

 

[Stefano4444]

Amexim, i think it better for you if you stop typing and just relax for a moment, nothing good is going to come out with such actions.

 

[Amexim]

Notice that I haven't insulted anyone directly though, despite being insulted earlier by a mod, and now I'm being told to calm down for compromising. Ok.

Just want to say, i'm more frustrated than actually angry. So can we please stop trying to push me out of a conversation, despite me feeling like no one wants to listen or here me out? Thanks.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Personally I'm fine with a possibly rating considering the reasons you mentioned.

 

[Ugarik]

Also can anyone explain why Ginyu can't reach planet level+ I mean Ginyu=base Goku>Ginyu force>2nd Zenkai Vegeta>Zarbon>Namek Vegeta>Cui=Vegeta>Nappa>Krillin>Saibaman=Raditz>Piccolo(70 zettatons)

 

[Stefano4444]

Amexim, nobody is pointing the finger at you and i'm not saying that you're wrong, i have just saying that you're not thinking clearly, if you reach such point then its better have a moment of pause to reflect, then when you're ready you can return the next time with a clear mind, trust me i know what its like to be frustrated (this has happen with the recent downgrade of One Piece).

And when you have been insulted early?

 

[AstralKing7]

See I think Vegeta is what messes up that scaling chain. I don't think we are allowed t scale like that but I'm not sure

 

[Amexim]

@Qawsedf

Thank you.

 

[Dark649]

See I think Vegeta is what messes up that scaling chain. I don't think we are allowed t scale like that but I'm not sure

Could be referring to SS Vegeta, Ugarik: In the previous thread i said that Ginyu is stronger than Great Ape Vegeta which was a x10 boost from Vegeta, it would give the + but it was rejected.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ginyu had a PL of 120,000. Goku's KKx2 state was 180,000. So it'd be: KKx2 Goku > Ginyu > Base Goku > Buter/Recoome/Jeiece > Post-Zarbon Vegeta > Zarbon's 2nd form > Post-Saiyan Saga Vegeta > Zarbon > Cui ~ Saiyan Saga Vegeta > KKx2 Saiyan Saga Goku > Saiyan Saga Goku > Nappa > Saiyan Saga Piccolo > Saiyan Saga Krillin > Sabiaman ~ Raditz > BoDBZ Piccolo

 

[Amexim]

Stef, I have been thinking clearly the entire time I was typing.*

Go back and read for the question you asked, not bringing the specifics up.

I shouldn't have meantioned it again, so, I will say you're half right.**

 

[Dark649]

Quawsed and Ugarik, i also tried to use powerlevels scaling but it was rejected. I tried to test that metod and i got Large Planet level FTL+ Ginyu to Star level MFTL+ Frieza.

 

[Amexim]

I think Vegeta should be higher than Ginyu in his Great Ape Form, given Vegeta is at least 180K at full power in his Great Ape Form is the x10 multiplier.

But that Multiplier doesn't have any history other than the one time it was used and mentioned, and we don't have any good feats to support it, given the fact that Goku didn't get instantaneously Blitzed and turned into mush by an FTL Great Ape Vegeta, and that Goku wasn't erased by the Mouth Blast...

Give it a possibly as well, or just let it go. One or the other, both are fine. It goes against the Measuring Stick, but its also inconsistent as hell.

 

[Dark649]

I will return later, i also analyzed that Vegeta did not matched the full power of First Form Frieza and 18.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well the only difference it would make to my above scale, is that Ginyu doesn't scale to base Goku, but to the Ginyu force. Other wise everything is supported feat wise.

 

[Huesito88]

Ginyu was stated by Goku to be stronger than base Goku.

 

[AstralKing7]

I didn't know we can use the same character in scaling chains more than once but it seems that we can

 

[Qawsedf234]

I didn't know we can use the same character in scaling chains more than once but it seems that we ca

In this case the characters got notable and stated in-universe power boosts.

> Ginyu was stated by Goku to be stronger than base Goku.

Its weird. Goku was weaker than Ginyu but could fly faster. For AP it might work, but for speed it wouldn't

 

[Huesito88]

Yeah that's one of the very few times where the stronger person isn't faster in DB.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I will return later, i also analyzed that Vegeta did not matched the full power of First Form Frieza and 18.

Vegeta still held his own vs 18 and sightly damaged her

 

[ByAsura]

Just a question: is Vegeta after training against the androids not listed as being stronger or possibly stronger than the Andriods because he had a heart virus at the time? If so, I have some evidence against this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually @Cal, there was a statement in which both planets and stars were used together in the manga, and it's impossible to wipe a galaxy out of existence unless everything is destroyed albeit piece by piece. Still, that's off topic.

Anyway, Dark649's latest suggestion looks as good as usual.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the current conclusions here?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Fairly long post above, but this looks like it.

In the previous thread i implied that i'm fine with MFTL, but i'd like to apply these first, which are Me, Kep, Medeus and Aiden changes:

1] Son Goku:

- Vegeta Saga: Relativistic+ with Kaio-Kenx4.


- Ginyu Saga: Relativistic+ Base.


- Frieza Saga: At least Dwarf Star level / FTL in Base, Small Star level with Kaio-Kenx10 and x20, with Spirit Bomb and as a Super Saiyan, FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.


- Android Saga: Small Star level / FTL in Base, Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan. - Cell Games: At least FTL+ / Star level in Base, Large Star level as a Mastered Super Saiyan. At least Large Star level MSS in the Buu Saga.


2] Vegeta:


- Frieza Saga: FTL after the third Zenkai Boost.


- Android Saga: Small Star level / FTL in Base during the Android Saga, Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.


- Cell Saga: Small Star level / FTL in Base, At least Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan, Large Star level as a Grade 2 Super Saiyan.


- Cell Games: Small Star level / FTL+ in Base, Large Star level / At least FTL+ as a Mastered Super Saiyan.

- Buu Saga: Star level / At least FTL+ in Base, At least Large Star level / At least FTL+ as a Mastered Super Saiyan.

3] Gohan:


- Frieza Saga: Relativistic to FTL during his rages by reaching and overwhelming Frieza. - Android Saga: Dwarf Star level / FTL.


- Cell Games and Buu Saga: Star level / At least FTL+ in Base, At least Large Star level as a Mastered Super Saiyan and as a Super Saiyan 2.

4] Piccolo:


- Frieza Saga: Dwarf Star level / FTL after fusing with Nail.


- Android Saga: Small Star level / FTL+ as a Super Namekian.


- Cell Saga: Star level / At least FTL+ after fusing with Kami. - Cell Games and Buu Saga: Large Star level / At least FTL+.


5] Future Gohan: At least Dwarf Star level / FTL in Base, Small Star level / FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.


5.5] Future Trunks:


- Mecha Frieza Saga: At least Dwarf Star level / FTL in Base, Small Star level / FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.


- Cell Saga: Small Star level / FTL in Base, At least Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan, Large Star level as a Grade 3 Super Saiyan [this form lowers speed].


- Cell Games: Small Star level / FTL+ in Base, Large Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.

6] Goten and Trunks: Small Star level / FTL in Base, Star level / At least FTL+ as a Super Saiyan.

7] Others:

- Ginyu and Shisame: Relativistic+.


- Frieza Forms: Dwarf Star level / FTL to Small Star level / FTL+ at 100%.


- King Cold, Android 19 and 20: Small Star level / FTL+.


- Android 18, 17, Imperfect Cell, 16, Kibito and Yakon [the latter had his attacks easily being dodged by Base Goku]: Star level / At least FTL+.


- Semi-Perfect Cell: Star level+ / At least FTL+.


- Cell Jr.: Large Star level / At least FTL+.


- Shin and Dabura: At least Large Star level / At least FTL+.


- Tournament of Power Krillin, 18, Tien, Roshi, Ganos and etc. remains the same since are far stronger than Buu Saga Base Gohan and Semi-Perfect Cell, they get: At least FTL+.

Dark649 said he'd come back, but so far, this looks like it ^

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems fine.

 

[Dark649]

Vegeta still held his own vs 18 and sightly damaged her.

Medeus: Yes that's it. Aiden: Yes, if Goku did not had the heart virus he would be nearly as strong if not equal to that Vegeta.

 

[Amexim]

What of "possibly" on the MFTL? Should we make a separate thread for it,reiterating all of my paragraphs, or is possibly a rational claim? I agree those should be handled first, but I feel like handling that last part i'm mentioning here would save time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Actually @Cal, there was a statement in which both planets and stars were used together in the manga, and it's impossible to wipe a galaxy out of existence unless everything is destroyed albeit piece by piece. Still, that's off topic.

Manga only mentioned planets being destroyed. It didn't mention thing about galaxies.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

@Dark the scaling looks fine so far, but question: is the supernova calc accepted? The speed one, because I saw some controversy because it used a diferent size from the accepted from the AP Supernova calc

 

[AKM sama]

@Amexim Let me clear my stance once again. I am not against the A>B logic of the power levels. If A has a PL of 1 million and B has a power level of 900,000, then obviously A>B.

But if you are saying that Goku had a PL of 90,000 and kaioken x10 will make him 900,000 then you are applying math in power levels. You are indirectly validating the use power levels for linear scaling, which is wrong. Power levels are not linear. That will basically result in stuff like Raditz being only 200 times stronger than farmer with shotgun and other PL math like that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Tbf that's not him that's the series. When Goku uses KKx2 his power level doubles.

 

[Dark649]

@Dark the scaling looks fine so far, but question: is the supernova calc accepted? The speed one, because I saw some controversy because it used a diferent size from the accepted from the AP Supernova calc

The speed one should be revaluated.

 

[Amexim]

AKM.

First, the problem with trying to scale farmer with a shotgun using power levels is something I already addressed. Power Levels are not linear. If anything, they seem to be more exponential than anything, and, because of that, backwards scaling a weakling using them is ridiculous, both because we don't know the exact function to use to scale back from a feat, and because it's improper procedure to scale a weaker character based on a stronger one.

So, that by itself is a rather pointless objection to what i'm saying.

You also ignore my use of the Multiplier. As Qawsed states, the Kaioken is a linear multiplier of your power leve. Even if it isn't consistent with the rest of the evidence for Kaioken being linear, multiplying the power levels by a stated, valid multiplier in a way that the multipliers have consistently been used, and applying the simple rationale given to us by the verse is in no way invalid procedure. Might as well say training and Zenkai Boosts don't exist.

You, AKM, are the one trying to take the multipliers to a place they don't belong. I'm simply saying that the Kaioken multipliers apply to Goku's stats linearly. Even though Power Levels are non-linear, the multipliers are applied in a linear way. Disregarding the relationship between a character's power level and what their stats should be in depth and using it as it is intended to and is most reliable as (a measuring stick used to only tell us how strong characters are in a broad, unspecific, but clear way), we know that Goku using his Kaiokenx10 would make him a 900K. This is less than Second Form Frieza's 1M. This means Goku would be weaker than Frieza in that form. Doesn't matter how much or anything else.

To say that is unreliable, despite it being the logic of the verse itself is false. Yes, there is no viable correlation between a PL and stats by themselves in the way that using them can allow us to use a feat from one character's PL and use ratios to find the stats of the other characters to find the exact difference in stats. We can, and are, doing that without taking the ratio difference between the actual power level numbers into account. Only thing about power levels we're Taking is how characters stack up to each other.

In conclusion, your claim is inaccurate. Not only do I disagree with the method you propose, and vocally said so, but my method is in no way logically connected to what you're claim illustrates at all.

It is not rational to assume that because I am using the Story's application of the Kaioken and what that yields to understand how strong characters are in terms of power levels (which is to say, I am first using the Kaioken to understand how strong Goku should be relative to another character in the same manner you agree with) that I am going to/intend to/believe in any way that it is accurate to, and/or that the only rational conclusion of this method is to backwards scale characters using power level differences in ratios as a valid way to mathematically get stats from the verse.

That's not what is being done here. At all. Never was. This argument is, sorry to say, nonsense.

We are operating under the assumptions that basic powerscaling would grant us. Power Levels exist essentially to be what we base our reasoning behind who is stronger than who. The Verse says that if Goku were to use the Kaiokenx10 at what he was at during the Ginyu fight, he would be closer on the Scale to Frieza than anyone else, but Frieza would still be superior. Whether that number was 900K or 2, whether the Kaioken didn't scale PLs linearly, so long as we know the Kaioken increases your stats linearly, the only thing that matters is that, so long as we know the Kaioken is linear for your stats (power level or not), and that even with that increase Frieza would be superior in his Second Form, and that Goku's Base vs True Form Frieza was superior to Second Form Frieza (who is stronger than KKx10 Goku), we know Goku is "possibly" (assuming he can do KKx10) at least as strong as his KKX10 self.

Basic scaling.

 

[AKM sama]

Was it ever stated that kaioken multiplies power levels? Because as far as I remember it only multiplies raw stats.