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Dragon Ball Z Multipliers Revision [Safe Version]

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Kepekley23 said:
Relativistic Raditz is consistent with MHS+ 23rd Goku.
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Raditz being faster than 23rd Goku doesn't mean his speed being Relativistic is more likely. VS Battles tends to go with the high end result as it did for both of those calcs, perhaps we should see what the scaling would look like with low end values?
 
> Raditz being faster than 23rd Goku doesn't mean his speed being Relativistic is more likely

Uh, yeah it does. That's what supporting feats are for.
 
200c is obviously bullshit but even just using normal Kaioken multipliers and nothing more, scaling out of First Form Freeza's speed x20 we get barely FTL by Super Saiyan.

Which is what I go for. What already is on the profiles.
 
Kaioken multpliers seem very solid in my opinion, they boost all stats and don't have inconsistencies amongst them.

It doesn't seem wise to say "Only strength and durability are consistent, thus we must remove the speed portion of the multplier". We can't cherry pick abilities like that when we strive for accuracy.
 
As for Kaio-ken x10 Ginyu Saga Goku, there's something I'd like to point out. I know power levels aren't really used here due to being non-linear, but based on the fact that Kaio-ken x2 Goku's power level is 180,000, a theoretical Kaio-ken x10 Goku would have a power level of 900,000, which is above that of First Form Frieza (530,000). I know power levels aren't linear, but I think it is notable that the power level of Kaio-ken x10 Ginyu Saga Goku would be higher than that of First Form Frieza's.

Also, I don't really understand why the theoretical Kaio-ken x10 Ginyu Saga Goku should be disregarded when it comes to determining the power increases for the characters, especially since Piccolo (fused with Nail) and Vegeta (Post-Zenkai) are superior to what KKx10 Ginyu Saga Goku would be.
 
Damage3245 said:
Err, did he? Because he offered up the possible explanation of Beerus trying to get a rise out of Goku, or that he was being sarcastic but that doesn't seem very convincing.
Why exactly would Beerus completely lie and say he didn't think base Goku could beat Frieza?
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Again, he was clearly lying. He calls Super Saiyan a slight increase, sarcastically saying he know how he's more powerful than Frieza, and when he gets serious as Super Saiyan he tells Goku that he does know now. After this he says that he thinks it's the best Goku could do, a pretty clear attempt to get him angrier or level up. I even showed panels of this.

The first part is an immediate red flag. Super Saiyan Goku should be able to oneshot Frieza with all the power he's gotten. He even surpasses Future Trunks after HTC training by a gigantic amount after he also trained and gained a massive increase.

It doesn't matter why he did, because Beerus was being sarcastic or Goku was suppressed.
 
Did Goku get stronger than he would have been with the KKX10 after fighting Ginyu? Yes or no. If no, then don't use it. If yes, then we have to. You're jumping at big numbers for no consistent reason besides "oof, seems a little high!".

When the Kaioken would make it necessary.
 
Can we go for a "possibly"? Because at this point, it isn't whether or not we're using the multipliers, but it's the Ginyu thing.

Why not break out old "possibly", considering it's based off of a reliable statement without the "explicit demonstration" people seem to crave.
 
Solar System level actually has a statement. Although I'll gladly debate that. 200c is bullshit because it follows a overrelying abuse of inconsistent power boosts and unreliable power levels.

Low-end FTL is legit though.
 
The real cal howard said:
I gots no problems with FTL or FTL+. That's what's already on Thebes profiles.
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Same, the problem is that with Dragon Ball, you give a hand, they take an arm, and complain you didn't give both.
 
I'm really confused on what's happening with the KKx10 because I was asleep for most of it. Can someone just fill in the blanks?
 
Kaioken x 10 has an actual Statement. Goku states that he believes he could do a Kaiokenx10 after training on his way to Namek. We know his base form, at the time, was stronger than his Kaiokenx4 amped self. If we use that strength as his base, and multiply it by x10, we know what he has, and we know how fast he would be, durable, strong, his AP, everything. The Kaioken boosts everything.

So, after Ginyu's shenanigans, Goku gets another Zenkai. We know that Goku is stronger than he would be if he did use the Kaiokenx10, because the Power Levels (used as a size/strength comparison, and not in calculations) of Goku and Second form Frieza show that even at a KKx10, Goku wouldn't be able to keep up with Frieza. 900K < 1M+

If Goku is stronger than Second Form Frieza and Third Form Frieza, we know that he is stronger than he would be with the Kaiokenx10. If we use that as a mark for his base form, and he uses KKx20 on top of that, and then we double that, because his Super Saiyan Form is at least double what KKx20 does to his base, we get the 200c.

Everything I just said is true. Goku did say he could do a KKx10, so we can use that version of Goku, not just because of the Statement, but because we also 100% know how strong Goku would be quantifiably given the KKx10. We know how he would stack up to Second Form Frieza and so on, based on the vague Power Levels that we will use to understand how strong someone is compared to someone else in a broad sense— ignoring the ratio differences between the numbers for PLs because we don't use them to scale specifically. That's what the Kaioken is for.

So it's not baseless speculation, it's recognizing and applying the truth of the story to our profiles.

This has more behind it than the Solar System Statements— which I agree with, and you apparently do as well Matt. So, why are you insulting me, trying to say that i'm stretching this out to WANK DBZ, when this is literally what happens in the story, full stop. I could pull out power level ratio multipliers out of my ass, but I know that won't fly. So why would I bother wanking or "taking an arm" when i'm Trying to show you what you can blatantly see for yourself.

Rude as ****.
 
FTL and FTL+ are just as legit as MFTL. The reason is, it's the exact same process, just missing a step. Ginyu. If you don't want to say it definitively, that's fine. But give it a possibly.

Because we know far too much for it to not even be in the realm of "possibility".
 
I'm not going to comment on who did or didn't start this, but please don't make this turn into a string of insults or being rude. This thread seems to be going fairly steady, and most issues are already agreed upon.
 
When have I insulted you though? How can I turn something into a string of insults if no thread is coming from me? I don't think I said anything as blatantly rude as what you just said— that insult was directed at someone explicitly, even if it's broad. I'm not the one who needs to be warned here— my most aggressive behavior in this thread was attacking people's ARGUMENTS, rather than calling people greedy for ratings or implying that they are wanking. But whatever. Let's ignore that.

Are you going to rebut me? Because i'm Willing to compromise on a non-explicit use of Kaioken not being enough for a hard rating, but we can't just ignore it. Possibly exists for a reason. I don't know what it's for if this situation isn't the textbook definition of it.
 
Let's stick to discussing the arguments rather than the people saying them please. That kind of thing has infested our society far too much in terms of political bickering.

Anyway, it seems like there is overwhelming support for using the Kaioken multipliers, but uncertainty regarding the resulting speeds.

Can somebody summarise the arguments for why the speed statistics should be FTL, FTL+, and MFTL, respectively?
 
We of course agree with Saiyan saga characters being Relativistic scaling from weighted training gear Piccolo's feat (0.14c), and Goku with Kaioken x4 which also scales to Vegeta, and everyone in early Namek saga/Ginyu saga to (0.56c). The hypothetical Kaioken 10x is stretching, but Frieza saga cast should still be superior to Ginyu saga Goku using 2x Kaioken; since Goku actually demonstrated using it and said it was nothing compared to what he can actually do. Which even Captain Ginyu admitted he stood no chance. I think 1st form Frieza should be (1.12c) or FTL scaling from Ginyu saga Goku with Kaioken x2, and then 50% Frieza scales to Goku with Kaioken x20 or (22.4c) and FTL+ which Super Saiyan Goku and 100% Frieza are FTL+; no Massively FTL since that's too hypothetical; but all the Android saga and Buu saga would get an "At least" for their ratings.

So in short, 1st 3 forms Frieza, Battle with Frieza Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Goku scale, I believe would be FTL scaling from Kaioken x2 Ginyu Goku, and than Final Form Frieza 50% and 100%, and Goku Kaioken x10, x20, and Super Saiyan are FTL+.
 
Medeus seems to make sense to me.

Please explain your suggested scaling Matthew.
 
Ok, i will reasume all proposed changes.

Me and Kep Ap:

- Base Ginyu Saga Goku becomes at least 5-B, higher with the Kaioken states. At least High 5-A for Frieza Saga Base Goku, Low 4-C for KKx10 and 20 Goku, Spirit Bomb, Frieza and SS Goku. 4-C for the Androids, at least 4-C for Semi-Perfect Cell, Grade 2 Vegeta with higher via Final Flash and Grade 3 Trunks, also them after second room training and Piccolo after one training, just High 4-C for Perfect Cell and Mastered Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan, also MSS Vegeta in the Buu Saga.

Medeus Speed:

- KKx4 Vegeta Saga Goku, Base Ginyu Saga Goku, Ginyu and Shisame are Relativistic+, FTL for most Frieza forms and FTL+ for Super Saiyan Goku and 100% Frieza. At least FTL+ starting with the major Android saga characters.

Matthew Speed:

- Same as current since he said that Super Saiyan is 10c by using Frieza Supernova speed.

I'm fine with Me and Kep suggestion for ap and dura while Medeus for speed.
 
Matt, explain the math you did to get 10c.

Should I make a Q&A thread about the standards we follow in regards to "possibly" ratings also? I really don't understand why we can't use the "possibly" MFTL, given the fact that it's actually based in something valid. Goku does believe that he can do a Kaiokenx10, and even if he couldn't, we know Goku would be weaker than Second Form Frieza if he did. Goku is in fact stronger than he would have been if he used KKx10. No debate. That is a fact.

So even if it is based on a hypothetical scenario, we should make note of it. So, give it a likely or possibly, if a hard rating is too much. I really don't understand why people are against using possibly...
 
Amexim said:
Matt, explain the math you did to get 10c.
Should I make a Q&A thread about the standards we follow in regards to "possibly" ratings also? I really don't understand why we can't use the "possibly" MFTL, given the fact that it's actually based in something valid. Goku does believe that he can do a Kaiokenx10, and even if he couldn't, we know Goku would be weaker than Second Form Frieza if he did. Goku is in fact stronger than he would have been if he used KKx10. No debate. That is a fact.

So even if it is based on a hypothetical scenario, we should make note of it. So, give it a likely or possibly, if a hard rating is too much. I really don't understand why people are against using possibly...
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Exactly, and even if the KKx10 cannot be used, there is also the matter that Goku/Vegeta/Gohan have become so strong in the Buu Saga that they're comparable to, if not stronger than, Kibito even in Base.

Someone that is supposed to be easily above Frieza, in virtue of Shin's statement about the general power of the Kaioshins, meaning that they can reach Massively FTL speed with their SSj1 Forms alone, that without counting SSj2 Forms.
 
So is a "possibly" acceptable? If not, why? And what needs to be true in order to get a "possibly" on pages, if this scenario isn't appropriate.
 
ByAsura said:
@Matt
Are you using Frieza's Supernova instead of Kaioken stacked onto Piccolo's feat.
Click to expand...
Yes.

Frieza's Supernova x 20 (Kaioken x20), also potentially x2 again given 50% and 100% Frieza.
 
Amexim said:
So is a "possibly" acceptable? If not, why? And what needs to be true in order to get a "possibly" on pages, if this scenario isn't appropriate.
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More than acceptable, since disgregar such factor would make no sense, since we have established before the normal Super Saiyan Form increase the power of character of at least 40 times over and is not like in the Buu Saga this has chance.

It would dare to say that a better rank for them would be 'At least Massively FTL' due of them becoming so dangerously close trully be Massively FTL+ as well, since 22.4c * 40 = 896c.

For anyone that is above Buu Saga Goku/Gohan/Vegeta SSj1, there can be three options:

- At least Massively FTL, possible higher.

- At least Massively FTL, likely higher.

- Likely Massively FTL+.
 
@Matthew

Well, I suppose that would be a less distant feat to scale from, in terms of power levels.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Even regular MFTL is random. FTL+ is as far as they go.
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You're going to need a better argument than "random" if you want to convince me that MFTL speed cannot be reach in DBZ.

Even if we scaling only from Frieza's Supernova and using the Kaioken Multipliers, it don't chance the fact that Buu Saga Goku, Vegeta and Gohan have surprassed 100% Frieza, making them FTL+ in Base only, which mean that with their SSj1 Form alone would allow them to becoming Massively FTL, even if they're more baseline than before.

Base Form Frieza's Supernova = 0.25066c.

Frieza Saga Goku SSj = 0.25066c * 40 = 10.0264c.

Buu Saga Goku SSj FP = 10.0264c * 40 = 401.056c.
 
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