Removing Goku scaling to Second Form Frieza (Dragon Ball Z)

[Eden_Warlock99]

could......anyone answer this please?

fr

 

[karo_senpaii]

Is my dragon ball knowledge foggy or didn't goku say that apart from his 90k power level that his power level still drastically goes up at the point of impact? So like the hypothetical 900k with kaioken 10x would be much more higher than that at the actual time he hits?

 

[Omegabronic]

It was already agreed that Goku would be scaling to First Form Frieza by the way, so no need to worry about that part.

but wouldn't downscaling from kaioken 10x make Base Goku 5-A as well?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

but wouldn't downscaling from kaioken 10x make Base Goku 5-A as well?

Actually just barely above baseline High 5-A, since lad is would be 20.378 Ronnatons

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Following. Won't comment though...probably.

 

[Damage3245]

but wouldn't downscaling from kaioken 10x make Base Goku 5-A as well?

This is why I don't like power levels because the same logic of making base Goku to be High 5-A here would also make Farmer with a Shotgun be 5-A / Large Planet level.

 

[Livinmeme]

This is why I don't like power levels because the same logic of making base Goku to be High 5-A here would also make Farmer with a Shotgun be 5-A / Large Planet level.

Goku COULD be 5-A because Kaio-ken downscaling, instead of powerleveling. And We alredy accept Kaio-ken downscaling (Goku being Low 5-B)

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Or did he just mention he could use Kaio-ken x 10 at this point?

Mentioned by multiple sources, actually.

In Chapter 270, Goku mentions he should be able to handle Kaioken x10 now.
In the Daizenshuu 7, it is also mentioned that Goku can use the Kaioken x10 when he had a power level of 90000 (Pre-Zenkai)
In Chapter 313, although Goku is now post-zenkai, Tien Shinran mentions Goku should be able to use Kaioken x10 due to the level of his TRAINING.

 

[Damage3245]

Mentioned by multiple sources, actually.

In Chapter 270, Goku mentions he should be able to handle Kaioken x10 now.
In the Daizenshuu 7, it is also mentioned that Goku can use the Kaioken x10 when he had a power level of 90000 (Pre-Zenkai)
In Chapter 313, although Goku is now post-zenkai, Tien Shinran mentions Goku should be able to use Kaioken x10 due to the level of his TRAINING.

Thanks, but this has already been answered a few times.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

This is why I don't like power levels because the same logic of making base Goku to be High 5-A here would also make Farmer with a Shotgun be 5-A / Large Planet level.

Not about power levels, although they are decent support.

It's about an accepted multiplier used as downscaling. Even if Power Levels weren't a thing, a lot of backscaling would be possible thanks to the sources outlining exactly how much stronger each character got.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Thanks, but this has already been answered a few times.

I believed you asked for specific scans? If you think it wasn't helpfuI can retract the comment entirely.

 

[Damage3245]

I believed you asked for specific scans? If you think it wasn't helpfuI can retract the comment entirely.

No offense intended; it's just that scans were already provided and the question had been answered before. Getting a notification for the thread for a question that had already been answered is a tiny bit frustrasting but no need to retract the comment.


EDIT: Anyway, I'll come back to this thread tomorrow. I don't want to make the profiles overly rely on backscaling too much but maybe there's a compromise solution where everyone can be happy.

 

[Omegabronic]

This is why I don't like power levels because the same logic of making base Goku to be High 5-A here would also make Farmer with a Shotgun be 5-A / Large Planet level.

I mean, we don't need to use power levels, is there even anything that says what is Kaioken 10x Goku power level? Because as you exemplified, they are nor linear like that, so a 10x boost in power does not mean a 10x boost in power level

If people still want to use them however then we would need to make base goku high 5-A via downscaling, it is either one or the other

 

[LordTracer]

If people still want to use them however then we would need to make base goku high 5-A via downscaling, it is either one or the other

This isn’t even about power levels, it’s the fact that Kaioken is an accepted multiplier. Base Goku would scale to 1/10 of where his Kaioken x10 scales.

 

[Omegabronic]

This isn’t even about power levels, it’s the fact that Kaioken is an accepted multiplier. Base Goku would scale to 1/10 of where his Kaioken x10 scales.

Yeah, but his power level at 10x kaioken is what would determine where he would downscale to

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, but his power level at 10x kaioken is what would determine where he would downscale to

No, his power level at Kaioken x10 determines where he scales, which is above First Form Freeza. The downscaling comes from Kaioken being an accepted multiplier, nothing to do with Goku’s PL.

 

[Omegabronic]

No, his power level at Kaioken x10 determines where he scales, which is above First Form Freeza. The downscaling comes from Kaioken being an accepted multiplier, nothing to do with Goku’s PL.

and his Kaioken 10x would only scale above First Form Freeza via Goku's Power level when using Kaioken 10x, which would only be above First Form Freeza because of Base Goku's power level when multiplied getting that high, so it has everything to do with Goku's power level

 

[LordTracer]

and his Kaioken 10x would only scale above First Form Freeza via Goku's Power level when using Kaioken 10x, which would only be above First Form Freeza because of Base Goku's power level when multiplied getting that high, so it has everything to do with Goku's power level

I don’t think you’re getting what I’m saying.

KKx10 scales above Freeza because of it having a higher power level, yes.
Base Goku downscaling to 1/10 of Kaioken x10 does not have anything to do with power levels.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Basically, Goku scales above 1st form Freeza due to having a higher Power Level than him. Power Levels are not usable as a linear form of comparing stats, but they can be use to holistically compare whether A is > B due to having a higher overall PL.

The proposed 10x downscale is due to Kaio-Ken being accepted as a linear multiplier.

So it's two different things working in tandem. I hope that clears up the argument for everyone.

 

[Omegabronic]

Basically, Goku scales above 1st form Freeza due to having a higher Power Level than him. Power Levels are not usable as a linear form of comparing stats, but they can be use to holistically compare whether A is > B due to having a higher overall PL.

The proposed 10x downscale is due to Kaio-Ken being accepted as a linear multiplier.

So it's two different things working in tandem. I hope that clears up the argument for everyone.

well, the supposed power level of kaioken 10x Goku comes directly from doing a linear calculation with power levels, "since he gets 10x stronger with KK then his power levels also gets 10x higher, reaching a level beyond first form Freeza", but as you said, power levels are not linear, so doing linear calculations to find which power level one would have doesn't seem to make sense

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

well, the supposed power level of kaioken 10x Goku comes directly from doing a linear calculation with power levels, "since he gets 10x stronger with KK then his power levels also gets 10x higher, reaching a level beyond first form Freeza", but as you said, power levels are not linear, so doing linear calculations to find which power level one would have doesn't seem to make sense

You're not getting me. Kaio-Ken is already accepted on the wiki as a linear multiplier. It has nothing to do with Power Levels.
If you don't believe Kaio-Ken should be treated as a linear multiplier, then that's a topic for another thread.

 

[Omegabronic]

You're not getting me. Kaio-Ken is already accepted on the wiki as a linear multiplier. It has nothing to do with Power Levels.
If you don't believe Kaio-Ken should be treated as a linear multiplier, then that's a topic for another thread.

i am not saying that it isn't a linear multiplier, i am saying that we don't know the power level that a kaioken 10x has, so we can't scale him above first form freeza

 

[LordTracer]

we don't know the power level that a kaioken 10x has

Yes, we do. It’s 10x base Goku, who has a power level of 90,000. 90,000 x 10 = 900,000.

 

[Omegabronic]

Yes, we do. It’s 10x base Goku, who has a power level of 90,000. 90,000 x 10 = 900,000.

if power levels are not linear, why would linear increases in strength make it rise linearly?

one can't say that "Power Levels are not usable as a linear form of comparing stats" and then.....use a linear method of comparing stats to find the number of power level one has

it just seems weird for us to say that power levels are not linear to compare stats, and yet use the linear method of "x times stronger = x times bigger power level" to say which power level one has, like, isn't this the same logic and calculating how much bigger, say, freeza's power level is in comparison to Kid Goku to downscale Goku from it? if Kaioken, which is nothing more than a linear multiplier in power, supposedly makes the power level increase linearly as well, then by that logic any number of power levels follow this same linear logic to calculate how much stronger or weaker anyone is to anyone by simple doing division and multiplication with power levels


really tried to make my concerns clear here, as i feel a bit of miscommunication is happening in both sides, pardon, i should have been clearer on what i meant before

 

[LordTracer]

if power levels are not linear, why would linear increases in strength make it rise linearly?

Because we’ve seen it work like that in the series.

Power levels don't compare to each other linearly, as we can see with examples like Vegeta v. Cui where a PL difference as minimal as 1.333x (24,000 v. 18,000) is enough to two-shot, but Kaioken has always been shown to cause linear increases. Goku’s base power level is 90,000 when he fights Ginyu, and when he uses the basic Kaioken (which is 2x), his power doubles to 180,000 - a linear increase.

We don't downscale based on power level differences, because they aren’t linear. We downscale based on the Kaioken multiplier, which is linear.

 

[Omegabronic]

Because we’ve seen it work like that in the series.

Power levels don't compare to each other linearly, as we can see with examples like Vegeta v. Cui where a PL difference as minimal as 1.333x (24,000 v. 18,000) is enough to two-shot, but Kaioken has always been shown to cause linear increases. Goku’s base power level is 90,000 when he fights Ginyu, and when he uses the basic Kaioken (which is 2x), his power doubles to 180,000 - a linear increase.

We don't downscale based on power level differences, because they aren’t linear. We downscale based on the Kaioken multiplier, which is linear.

so in summary, Kaioken is the weird exception to the "non linear" rule simply because we see it happening like that?

if so i can see the logic and agree with it, it is still weird as to why the Kaioken works like that, but meh, what can one do

 

[LordTracer]

so in summary, Kaioken is the weird exception to the "non linear" rule simply because we see it happening like that?

Kaioken and Super Saiyan, but yeah. The multipliers are shown to be linear, but power levels don’t compare to each other linearly.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Question, why are we using Kaioken x10 for this?
Logically, Goku should be able to use any arbitrary multiplier of Kaioken between 2x and 10x. He surpasses First Form Frieza at Kaioken x6. Shouldn't it be 1/6th of First Frieza's power?

 

[Damage3245]

We'd be able to avoid this headache if we just dropped the stupid downscaling.

What is this verse's obsession with trying to make every character part of the same scaling chain?

Doesn't anyone love how verses like Naruto, Bleach and One Piece have a dozen or two dozen AP calcs, but Dragon Ball Z has... two? Three? This verse gets away with so much and people always want more.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The Toei Continuity uses the same scaling without any problems, it always comes back to Frieza's calc ending up way too high

 

[Damage3245]

The Toei Continuity uses the same scaling without any problems, it always comes back to Frieza's calc ending up way too high

Son Goku even with Kaio-ken shouldn't be scaling to Frieza IMO.

Vegeta claims that Frieza's strength is inconcievable to Goku.... But apparently Goku can just surpass him with a 6 x multiplier?

This is also part of a larger unspoken issue which is that outside of some special moves (Goku's Kamehameha, Vegeta' Gallick Gun, etc) nobody is portrayed as being able to casually wipe out a planet until Frieza.

Krillin is astonished at the power of Recoome's blast for... warping the planet. If any of the characters present could just casually vaporize Namek with a casual Ki blast, in what world does this line from Krillin make sense?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Krillin is astonished at the power of Recoome's blast for... warping the planet. If any of the characters present could just casually vaporize Namek with a casual Ki blast, in what world does this line from Krillin make sense?

That's a good point though. Except if Namek is a stupidly big planet.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Doesn't anyone love how verses like Naruto, Bleach and One Piece have a dozen or two dozen AP calcs, but Dragon Ball Z has... two? Three? This verse gets away with so much and people always want more.

There's more, Dragon Ball Z is just the second half of the main series it isn't a sequal to OG Dragon Ball like Super or GT is to Z, so scaling chains from OGDB count too

 

[Ednaxel2]

So there's scaling chains off of General Blue suriving a plane crash, Roshi destroying the moon, Vegeta threatening to destroy earth/10,000PL needing to destroy earth, Frieza destroying planet Vegeta, Cell threatening to destroy the solar system

That's 5, 7 including Super (Macrocosm and Destroyer's taboo being twice the amount of space-times as the macrocosm), Toei verse (OG/z Anime to GT) probably has way more

 

[Damage3245]

So there's scaling chains off of General Blue suriving a plane crash, Roshi destroying the moon, Vegeta threatening to destroy earth/10,000PL needing to destroy earth, Frieza destroying planet Vegeta, Cell threatening to destroy the solar system

That's 5, 7 including Super (Macrocosm and Destroyer's taboo being twice the amount of space-times as the macrocosm), Toei verse (OG/z Anime to GT) probably has way more

Right, but I obviously wasn't talking about Super / Toei.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Right, but I obviously wasn't talking about Super / Toei.

But you didn't just talk about Naruto Shippuden or Bleach 1000 Year war. You used the whole setting. Maybe count the calcs from DB to Super.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Right, but I obviously wasn't talking about Super / Toei.

I didn't bring up those, I just said there'd be more for Toei and 2 more if you want to count super

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I don't think Toei has any involvement here. It's non canon.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

We'd be able to avoid this headache if we just dropped the stupid downscaling.

What is this verse's obsession with trying to make every character part of the same scaling chain?

Doesn't anyone love how verses like Naruto, Bleach and One Piece have a dozen or two dozen AP calcs, but Dragon Ball Z has... two? Three? This verse gets away with so much and people always want more.

Whataboutism isn't going to solve the issue, Damage, these are different verses with their own scaling and writing styles, STOP BRINGING THEM UP.

Dragon Ball is a verse that is scarce of relevant feats to speak of, but those few feats it does have are crucial and objective. Piccolo's moon busting, Vegeta's planet busting, Frieza's star level feat, and finally Cell's Solar System busting feats are all self-justifying for the scaling we give them, they're progressively stronger and are consistent with the power gaps between characters.

Dragon Ball has a very linear line of progression outlined by statements and evident multipliers, which are then supported by feats being usually far higher than the supposed "wanked" scaling chain (Not that you think it's wanked, just showing that the chain itself still isn't absurd)

Son Goku even with Kaio-ken shouldn't be scaling to Frieza IMO.

Vegeta claims that Frieza's strength is inconcievable to Goku.... But apparently Goku can just surpass him with a 6 x multiplier?

This is also part of a larger unspoken issue which is that outside of some special moves (Goku's Kamehameha, Vegeta' Gallick Gun, etc) nobody is portrayed as being able to casually wipe out a planet until Frieza.

Krillin is astonished at the power of Recoome's blast for... warping the planet. If any of the characters present could just casually vaporize Namek with a casual Ki blast, in what world does this line from Krillin make sense?

I thought AP didn't equate DC. Celestial Body-busting attacks have been a thing since Early Dragon Ball, and yet statements/feats like destroying a city are still considered impressive by the time Piccolo Daimaoh shows up. The writer simply has no notion of the scale of his character's own feats, this is common, and characters being impressive by a feat on a lower caliber should absolutely not be reason enough to discard several feats these characters scale to.

Your issue with special moves being portrayed as the only thing that can bust a planet is again just not knowing how AP vs DC works, Vegeta took the full blunt of that planetary attack and survived just fine. Characters scale to the energy of the Galick Gun to some extent by harming Vegeta, that's how it's always been for most verses when it comes to scaling, but now you have a problem with Dragon Ball specifically?

This same Vegeta that thought Frieza was inconceivable to Goku went on to face him on a one-on-one, with no further Zenkais, and Vegeta is NOT aware Goku can use Kaioken x6 or x10. Sorry, your complaints are not valid imo. It's also too bad we have objective numbers given by official sources and the manga itself to go by when it comes to scaling.

 

[Damage3245]

I thought AP didn't equate DC. Celestial Body-busting attacks have been a thing since Early Dragon Ball, and yet statements/feats like destroying a city are still considered impressive by the time Piccolo Daimaoh shows up. The writer simply has no notion of the scale of his character's own feats, this is common, and characters being impressive by a feat on a lower caliber should absolutely not be reason enough to discard several feats these characters scale to.

I don't want to discard absolutely every feat - but I do want to be more picky about who we scale to them.

Your issue with special moves being portrayed as the only thing that can bust a planet is again just not knowing how AP vs DC works, Vegeta took the full blunt of that planetary attack and survived just fine. Characters scale to the energy of the Galick Gun to some extent by harming Vegeta, that's how it's always been for most verses when it comes to scaling, but now you have a problem with Dragon Ball specifically?

Oh, I know how it works, I think we just apply it badly sometimes.

This same Vegeta that thought Frieza was inconceivable to Goku went on to face him on a one-on-one, with no further Zenkais, and Vegeta is NOT aware Goku can use Kaioken x6 or x10. Sorry, your complaints are not valid imo. It's also too bad we have objective numbers given by official sources and the manga itself to go by when it comes to scaling.

Vegeta definitely knows that Goku can use the Kaio-ken by this point.

Dragon Ball has a very linear line of progression outlined by statements and evident multipliers, which are then supported by feats being usually far higher than the supposed "wanked" scaling chain (Not that you think it's wanked, just showing that the chain itself still isn't absurd)

I do think that it is "wanked" incidentally, but not blaming anyone in particular for that. I just think the verse is treated too generously compared to most other verses.