Removing Goku scaling to Second Form Frieza (Dragon Ball Z)

[UchihaSlayer96]

Can we stop with the "Well, urmmm, achshually " exchanges you guys? I feel like it's venturing into derailment territory.

Anyway, I do agree with Damage to some extent that Dragon Ball is one of the verses with the worst cases of overreliance on multipliers and back scaling, resulting in these ridiculously large and convoluted scaling chains, and very little direct scaling when all's said and done.
But at the same time, I feel like that's almost impossible to avoid with a series like Dragon Ball where the power system is so linear, and the scaling is so one note. It is what it is. I'm sure there's a better way to go about things, I'm just not sure what it is.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I don't want to discard absolutely every feat - but I do want to be more picky about who we scale to them.

Scaling to a fraction of a feat is still very much valid imo. It illustrates a numerical, mostly objective gap between character A and B.

Oh, I know how it works, I think we just apply it badly sometimes.

Well, your example is not good for this, because you used a perfectly good application. Might want to use a different example.

Vegeta definitely knows that Goku can use the Kaio-ken by this point.

Vegeta's own experience with the Kaioken only goes up to x4. This line absolutely doesn't apply to further iterations of the Kaioken, which is why Vegeta is just incorrect here.

 

[Damage3245]

But at the same time, I feel like that's almost impossible to avoid with a series like Dragon Ball where the power system is so linear, and the scaling is so one note. It is what it is. I'm sure there's a better way to go about things, I'm just not sure what it is.

One way that people don't want to include for some reason is that we address both the low end showing and the high end showings in our profiles.

If it looked like King Piccolo had to exert himself just to destroy a city-sized area, then we acknowledge it. If he has some scaling to other characters to be Moon level then we acknowledge that too.

If Recoome is regarded as impressive for warping the surface of a planet, then we acknowledge it. If he has some scaling to other characters to be Planet level then we acknowledge that too.


But right now our profiles are built to acknowledge only the highest possible interpretations of the characters. We dismiss everything contradictory as "inconsistent" or "the author has no sense of scale."

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Vegeta claims that Frieza's strength is inconcievable to Goku.... But apparently Goku can just surpass him with a 6 x multiplier?

Zarbon's x3 multiplier was "an increase in strength far too high for Vegeta to even calculate", lad ain't that reliable

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Can we stop with the "Well, urmmm, achshually " exchanges you guys? I feel like it's venturing into derailment territory.

Anyway, I do agree with Damage to some extent that Dragon Ball is one of the verses with the worst cases of overreliance on multipliers and back scaling, resulting in these ridiculously large and convoluted scaling chains, and very little direct scaling when all's said and done.
But at the same time, I feel like that's almost impossible to avoid with a series like Dragon Ball where the power system is so linear, and the scaling is so one note. It is what it is. I'm sure there's a better way to go about things, I'm just not sure what it is.

You're right, this thread is only about Goku scaling to Frieza's second or first form.
Any further complains about how DB scaling works in general should be taken to it's own thread. I apologize.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Whataboutism isn't going to solve the issue, Damage, these are different verses with their own scaling and writing styles, STOP BRINGING THEM UP.

Dragon Ball is a verse that is scarce of relevant feats to speak of, but those few feats it does have are crucial and objective. Piccolo's moon busting, Vegeta's planet busting, Frieza's star level feat, and finally Cell's Solar System busting feats are all self-justifying for the scaling we give them, they're progressively stronger and are consistent with the power gaps between characters.

Dragon Ball has a very linear line of progression outlined by statements and evident multipliers, which are then supported by feats being usually far higher than the supposed "wanked" scaling chain (Not that you think it's wanked, just showing that the chain itself still isn't absurd)


I thought AP didn't equate DC. Celestial Body-busting attacks have been a thing since Early Dragon Ball, and yet statements/feats like destroying a city are still considered impressive by the time Piccolo Daimaoh shows up. The writer simply has no notion of the scale of his character's own feats, this is common, and characters being impressive by a feat on a lower caliber should absolutely not be reason enough to discard several feats these characters scale to.

Your issue with special moves being portrayed as the only thing that can bust a planet is again just not knowing how AP vs DC works, Vegeta took the full blunt of that planetary attack and survived just fine. Characters scale to the energy of the Galick Gun to some extent by harming Vegeta, that's how it's always been for most verses when it comes to scaling, but now you have a problem with Dragon Ball specifically?

This same Vegeta that thought Frieza was inconceivable to Goku went on to face him on a one-on-one, with no further Zenkais, and Vegeta is NOT aware Goku can use Kaioken x6 or x10. Sorry, your complaints are not valid imo. It's also too bad we have objective numbers given by official sources and the manga itself to go by when it comes to scaling.

As always you are one of the posters whose opinions I always respect even in times I don't completely agree with them. I agree with this though.
However, Krillin did note how Recoome destroying an area was a big thing so it's just more author stupidity if we want to attribute it to some reason.

One way that people don't want to include for some reason is that we address both the low end showing and the high end showings in our profiles.

If it looked like King Piccolo had to exert himself just to destroy a city-sized area, then we acknowledge it. If he has some scaling to other characters to be Moon level then we acknowledge that too.

If Recoome is regarded as impressive for warping the surface of a planet, then we acknowledge it. If he has some scaling to other characters to be Planet level then we acknowledge that too.


But right now our profiles are built to acknowledge only the highest possible interpretations of the characters. We dismiss everything contradictory as "inconsistent" or "the author has no sense of scale."

Would that be the case for every fictional setting? So this would just double most character's profiles in length

 

[Damage3245]

Would that be the case for every fictional setting? So this would just double most character's profiles in length

And as a result we'd have more complete, accurate profiles, yeah.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Thank god for 48 hours rule, I almost missed this.

Everything about this scaling is perfectly consistent.

1) Goku does imply he'd be able to be of great help as the first scan shows. He also only considers Frieza too much of a threat once he transforms into his third form, where Goku says that NOW he isn't sure he could beat this form of Frieza, which again implies he believed he could beforehand.

2) Goku is now capable of going Kaioken x10, which is again consistent with him scaling relative to Second Form Frieza, as his original power level is 90 thousand, meaning his Kaioken x10 Power level would be in the ~900 thousands as well, very close to Frieza's one million.

3) This is scaling Goku to Second Form Frieza's casual AP, not his full power. This is because First Form Frieza had his AP from a rather casual feat, he did with one finger and laughing, meaning it took a insignificant amount of power to do it. This means Goku isn't "fully scaling" to Second Form Frieza's full power like some people said here.

There is no contradiction, and I believe I provided evidence for consistency. For these reasons, I disagree with OP.

EDIT: Furthermore, in any case, Goku should absolutely be downscaling from First Form Freeza with Kaioken x10 simply by having a higher power level than him, so this is the bare minimum we'll be taking from this thread​

Anyway, what do you guys think of my reasoning for keeping the scaling with a casual Second Form Frieza?

I'm fine with either:

High-End - We keep the scaling
Mid-End - Base Goku is 1/6th of First Form Frieza
Low-End - Base Goku is 1/10th of First Form Frieza

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not convinced with keeping him scaling to Second Form Frieza. I'm going with the Low End for now.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

And as a result we'd have more complete, accurate profiles, yeah.

Acknowledging inconsistencies (which are few and far between) is not a good idea. It's best to simply stick to the most consistent scaling, which is by far Moon level King Piccolo.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

One way that people don't want to include for some reason is that we address both the low end showing and the high end showings in our profiles.

If it looked like King Piccolo had to exert himself just to destroy a city-sized area, then we acknowledge it. If he has some scaling to other characters to be Moon level then we acknowledge that too.

If Recoome is regarded as impressive for warping the surface of a planet, then we acknowledge it. If he has some scaling to other characters to be Planet level then we acknowledge that too.


But right now our profiles are built to acknowledge only the highest possible interpretations of the characters. We dismiss everything contradictory as "inconsistent" or "the author has no sense of scale."

I do agree that we should start acknowledging alternative scaling metas or interpretations more, so long as they're not outright invalid of course.

Power-Scaling is seldom an objective affair, and it's usually very interpretive. I feel like we should be more open to acknowledging differing stances as long as they hold equal, or near-equal validity, instead of the usual "my way or the highway" attitude most of us adopt. This is why things like the Possibly and Likely ratings exist after all.

 

[Damage3245]

Acknowledging inconsistencies (which are few and far between) is not a good idea. It's best to simply stick to the most consistent scaling, which is by far Moon level King Piccolo.

Personally I think it's a great idea, but I digress.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Personally I think it's a great idea, but I digress.

Sure, we can discuss this further another time! For now, I believe both sides of the argument have been laid out for this particular thread so if you could quote the post for my options and ping the staff that participated in this thread for a voting, that would be appreciated!

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Sure, we can discuss this further another time! For now, I believe both sides of the argument have been laid out for this particular thread so if you could quote the post for my options and ping the staff that participated in this thread for a voting, that would be appreciated!

I do agree that we should start acknowledging alternative scaling metas or interpretations more, so long as they're not outright invalid of course.

Power-Scaling is seldom an objective affair, and it's usually very interpretive. I feel like we should be more open to acknowledging differing stances as long as they hold equal, or near-equal validity, instead of the usual "my way or the highway" attitude most of us adopt. This is why things like the Possibly and Likely ratings exist after all.

Could you do that, please?

With this message:

Anyway, what do you guys think of my reasoning for keeping the scaling with a casual Second Form Frieza?

I'm fine with either:

High-End - We keep the scaling
Mid-End - Base Goku is 1/6th of First Form Frieza
Low-End - Base Goku is 1/10th of First Form Frieza

 

[Damage3245]

@SamanPatou @DarkDragonMedeus @Deagonx @Maverick_Zero_X @LordTracer @UchihaSlayer96 If there's anything you could comment to help out with the above, that'd be great.

 

[RedReaper]

Yeah, I wouldn’t say Vegeta is the most accurate source there. At most Vegeta would be aware of is the Kaioken x4.

Mind you, by all accounts (based on his perspective) he’s right. KKx4 only nets Goku a PL of 360K, so far below 1st Form Frieza.

Even if we say Vegeta heard Goku talk about the x5, Goku would be at 450K compared to 530K. That is to say, based on his available information his guess is correct. Further, Vegeta was aware that Frieza was a transforming type species by this point. So it was more like 360K Vs 530K+. (As he didn’t expect Frieza’s power to go to 1 Million, I don’t think it’s valid to use that number and rather just take it as he thought Frieza was unquantifiably stronger than his base power.)

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'm also in favor of the Low-End.

 

[LordTracer]

I’m in favor of the low-end as well. Tbh, if KKx10 Goku is stronger than First Form Freeza, he could very well assist against Second Form Freeza without directly scaling to him.

 

[Nierre]

Completely agree with Damage on all fronts.

How DB is treated in terms of the overreliance on multipliers should really be it's own separate thread, IMO. It's a pretty big subject matter since it's the backbone of DB ATM.

I'm also in favor of the low-end FRA.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Well, Low-End was accepted, this can be applied and closed.

I believe only Goku and Ginyu would be affected by this for now.

 

[Veronica]

Maybe the power required to destroy a planet got changed and King Piccolo has a power to rival a small nuke: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11143/111432372/7663963-3858921621-724204.jpeg


Also didn't Guldo get speedblitzed by Gohan and Krillen travel speed, Ginyu called Goku's body fast while flying at high speed, Vegeta and the others were amazed that Second Form Frieza flight speed or Gohan getting blitzed by Second Form Frieza speed showing Flight>Namek Gohan reaction speed. There are many more to point out

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Maybe the power required to destroy a planet got changed


Also didn't Guldo get speedblitzed by Gohan and Krillen travel speed, Ginyu called Goku's body fast while flying at high speed, Vegeta and the others were amazed that Second Form Frieza flight speed or Gohan getting blitzed by Second Form Frieza speed showing Flight>Namek Gohan reaction speed. There are many more to point out

Wrong thread, bucko.

 

[Veronica]

Wrong thread, bucko.

I am just pointing out combat Vs flight inconsistenties like AP

 

[LordTracer]

I am just pointing out combat Vs flight inconsistenties like AP

It has nothing to do with this thread, so it’s derailing.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll apply it to the profiles. Closing the thread.