Removing Goku scaling to Second Form Frieza (Dragon Ball Z)

[Damage3245]

Dragon Ball Z's Son Goku's third key (AKA Ginyu Fight Goku) has this AP justification:

Dwarf Star level (Easily defeated Recoome, Burter, and Jeice), up to at least Dwarf Star level+ with Kaio-ken (Stated he was capable of performing a Kaio-ken x10. Surpassed Ginyu in power, leading to him stealing his body. Implied he'd be able to assist against Second Form Frieza)

With his Dwarf Star level+ rating with Kaio-ken x 10 being based on him being implied to assist against Second Form Frieza using this scan:

But I think this line of scaling should be removed from Goku's profile for a few reasons:

1) It's not specified that Goku would be able to assist against Second Form Frieza using only his Kaio-ken x 10. With his friend's lives on the line Goku could recklessly go up to an even higher level of Kaio-ken if he needed to. Or use an ability like the Spirit Bomb.

2) Just because Goku wanted to assist his friends doesn't necessarily mean he scales to Frieza or would have a realistic chance here. We've seen characters rush into combat against vastly superior fighters before like when Piccolo, Krillin and Gohan attempted to team up against Final Form Frieza and accomplish nothing. If we were to scale Goku to Frieza just because he wanted to fight him, that would imply all of these characters are comparable to Frieza too despite that being completely untrue.

3) We know that Saiyans get an incredible boost from being severely injured and recovering. This is in fact what enables Goku to stand a chance against Frieza later on. Goku mentally telling his friends to hold out until all his wounds are healed doesn't necessarily mean "I could beat Frieza with my current level of power" so much as it more likely means "I'll be a lot stronger in a few minutes and will be able to help out then."

So Goku "being implied to help against Second Form Frieza" should not be a justification on his Ginyu Fight key. I propose we remove that bit of scaling.

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Agree: Damage3245, SamanPatou, LordTracer, UchihaSlayer96, DeagonX, DarkDragonMedeus, Maverick Zero X

Disagree:

 

[SamanPatou]

Agreed, being able to assist is far cry from full scaling, it might not even be about power alone, Goku could have very well used a genkidama or any other mean to prove useful.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

From what I’ve seen this makes sense. Seems like a generous application of “confidence scaling” in a situation where there’s not a good reason to apply such, outside of higher scaling.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

3) We know that Saiyans get an incredible boost from being severely injured and recovering. This is in fact what enables Goku to stand a chance against Frieza later on. Goku mentally telling his friends to hold out until all his wounds are healed doesn't necessarily mean "I could beat Frieza with my current level of power" so much as it more likely means "I'll be a lot stronger in a few minutes and will be able to help out then."

Don't think this point works, cause Goku thought he reached his limit and wasn't expecting a big power boost
The other ones are fine tho

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Point 2 very accurate, Z warriors often expect to accomplish things against enemies that outclass them in every aspect. Even if Goku had no chance against Frieza he would still try and help. Agreed.

 

[Damage3245]

Don't think this point works, cause Goku thought he reached his limit and wasn't expecting a big power boost
The other ones are fine tho

Fair. Even discounting that point, I agree that the rest of the points in the OP still hold up.

 

[SirAlex09]

Agree.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This seems like a slight downgrade, I feel good about it and it doesn't seem to affect much, I agree.

 

[Ednaxel2]

I agree with the reasoning and on top of this Goku wasn't shocked about how strong he got from his zenkai or anything, further emphasizing he was taking that into account when he was waiting to get out

Tho, he should still scale over first form frieza since KKx10 Goku would be a PL of 900,000 which is greater than Frieza's PL of 530,000

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, this reasoning makes sense. I agree with the OP.

 

[RedReaper]

I agree, sorta? Goku was at 90K, before, so with the Kaioken x10 he should be at 900K in terms of PL. So shouldn't he still mildly downscale from Second Form Frieza, who is at ~1 Mil? Meaning that instead of nuking the line, we could simply alter that justification? (Especially since with KKx10 he'd still upscale over first form Frieza, who is Dwarf Star via the Planet Vegeta feat.)

 

[Damage3245]

I agree, sorta? Goku was at 90K, before, so with the Kaioken x10 he should be at 900K in terms of PL. So shouldn't he still mildly downscale from Second Form Frieza, who is at ~1 Mil? Meaning that instead of nuking the line, we could simply alter that justification? (Especially since with KKx10 he'd still upscale over first form Frieza, who is Dwarf Star via the Planet Vegeta feat.)

I think it would be better to scale him off of the characters he fights and is compared to than to Frieza who he doesn't fight and isn't directly compared to.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I fully agree with the OP.

 

[LordTracer]

I agree, sorta? Goku was at 90K, before, so with the Kaioken x10 he should be at 900K in terms of PL. So shouldn't he still mildly downscale from Second Form Frieza, who is at ~1 Mil? Meaning that instead of nuking the line, we could simply alter that justification? (Especially since with KKx10 he'd still upscale over first form Frieza, who is Dwarf Star via the Planet Vegeta feat.)

I don’t think we can downscale from PLs like that, but scaling Goku above First Form Freeza via having a higher power level would be valid.

 

[Deagonx]

Looks good to me.

 

[Nierre]

OP looks good to me

 

[RedReaper]

I think it would be better to scale him off of the characters he fights and is compared to than to Frieza who he doesn't fight and isn't directly compared to.

Sure, that's the best way, but a Kaioken 10x Namek Arrival Goku is still nearly double the PL of First Form Frieza. In no way should he be not scaled above him, even if at that moment they are not directly compared.

I don’t think we can downscale from PLs like that, but scaling Goku above First Form Freeza via having a higher power level would be valid.

That's incredibly fair, actually, because I had forgotten in that post that even minor PL differences can create massive shifts in power, like Vegeta's PLs against Dodoria, Zarbon, and Cui, (at one point I think it was literally only a gap of 2000 in one of those fights and Vegeta straight up was untouchable and effortlessly curbstomped his foe), or between someone who can bust the Moon at the 200~400 range compared to literal muggles at 5.

 

[Damage3245]

Sure, that's the best way, but a Kaioken 10x Namek Arrival Goku is still nearly double the PL of First Form Frieza. In no way should he be not scaled above him, even if at that moment they are not directly compared.

How about a mixture of;

At least Planet level (Easily defeated Recoome, Burter, and Jeice), likely up to Dwarf Star level with Kaio-ken (Far superior to Captain Ginyu with basic Kaio-ken. With a power level of 900,000 at Kaio-ken x 10, Goku should likely be superior to First Form Frieza)

 

[RedReaper]

That works for me, yeah.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Pretty sure Base Goku would end up being 5-A or something via Kaioken being a linear multiplier

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

How about a mixture of;

I liked the example, it looks very good to me.

 

[omegabronic]

How about a mixture of;

huh, since the kaioken is a multiplier of 10x, then his base form would also downscale from 10x, thus making his base form above planet level

 

[LordTracer]

How about a mixture of;

I don’t see why it’d be a Likely rating tbh. With a power level of 900,000, Goku would be superior to First Form Freeza. A better way to word it, imo, would be something like this.

up to Dwarf Star level (Surpassed Ginyu in power, leading to him stealing his body), potentially higher (Goku believed that he could use a Kaioken x10, which would give him a power level of 900,000, making him superior to First Form Freeza, who had a power level of 530,000)

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I don’t see why it’d be a Likely rating tbh. With a power level of 900,000, Goku would be superior to First Form Freeza. A better way to word it, imo, would be something like this.

I agree with this.

 

[Damage3245]

I don’t see why it’d be a Likely rating tbh. With a power level of 900,000, Goku would be superior to First Form Freeza. A better way to word it, imo, would be something like this.

At that point may as well just change the original post to:

At least Planet level (Easily defeated Recoome, Burter, and Jeice), up to Dwarf Star level with Kaio-ken (Far superior to Captain Ginyu with basic Kaio-ken. With a power level of 900,000 at Kaio-ken x 10, Goku should be superior to First Form Frieza)

No need for the "potentially higher".

 

[LordTracer]

At that point may as well just change the original post to:



No need for the "potentially higher".

That also works, I was only separating it with the “potentially higher” since we don’t actually see Goku use Kaioken x10 in the Ginyu Arc.

 

[omegabronic]

if we use the Kaioken like this, wouldn't base goku be at large planet level via being 10x weaker than his 10x kaioken?

 

[Damage3245]

That also works, I was only separating it with the “potentially higher” since we don’t actually see Goku use Kaioken x10 in the Ginyu Arc.

Wait... If we never see him use it in that arc, then should we even include that in his key?

Or did he just mention he could use Kaio-ken x 10 at this point?

 

[LordTracer]

Wait... If we never see him use it in that arc, then should we even include that in his key?

Or did he just mention he could use Kaio-ken x 10 at this point?

He just mentioned that he could use it, as far as I understand (unfortunately his page doesn’t have a scan or reference for it). And I would still include it for the sake of indexing.

 

[Damage3245]

He just mentioned that he could use it, as far as I understand (unfortunately his page doesn’t have a scan or reference for it). And I would still include it for the sake of indexing.

Okay. I'll add in the scan for that too when I update the profile after the time passes for thread to be applied.

 

[omegabronic]

if we use the Kaioken like this, wouldn't base goku be at large planet level via being 10x weaker than his 10x kaioken?

could......anyone answer this please?

 

[RedReaper]

Okay. I'll add in the scan for that too when I update the profile after the time passes for thread to be applied.

Here you go for when you need it. It’s right after he finishes his training on his way to Namek.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's arguable more of an upgrade for 2nd form Frieza than a downgrade for Goku (Though it could be a little bit of both, but scaling started with 1st form Frieza so it's more like the former overall).

But I basically agree with the proposal that KKx10 is not really a match for 2nd form Frieza. Side note, Goku outright states even with KKx10 he'd be nothing to 3rd form, but he wouldn't be much for 2nd form either most likely.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll take that as an agreement for the thread, thanks for commenting.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Thank god for 48 hours rule, I almost missed this.

Everything about this scaling is perfectly consistent.

1) Goku does imply he'd be able to be of great help as the first scan shows. He also only considers Frieza too much of a threat once he transforms into his third form, where Goku says that NOW he isn't sure he could beat this form of Frieza, which again implies he believed he could beforehand.

2) Goku is now capable of going Kaioken x10, which is again consistent with him scaling relative to Second Form Frieza, as his original power level is 90 thousand, meaning his Kaioken x10 Power level would be in the ~900 thousands as well, very close to Frieza's one million.

3) This is scaling Goku to Second Form Frieza's casual AP, not his full power. This is because First Form Frieza had his AP from a rather casual feat, he did with one finger and laughing, meaning it took a insignificant amount of power to do it. This means Goku isn't "fully scaling" to Second Form Frieza's full power like some people said here.

There is no contradiction, and I believe I provided evidence for consistency. For these reasons, I disagree with OP.

EDIT: Furthermore, in any case, Goku should absolutely be downscaling from First Form Freeza with Kaioken x10 simply by having a higher power level than him, so this is the bare minimum we'll be taking from this thread​

 

[Damage3245]

It was already agreed that Goku would be scaling to First Form Frieza by the way, so no need to worry about that part.

 

[ProudLearner]

I agree with Damage.

 

[Livinmeme]

Or did he just mention he could use Kaio-ken x 10 at this point?

He banters about how He could use Kaio-ken x 10 to Ginyu, which leads to Him pissing His pants, and stealing Goku body

 

[Damage3245]

He banters about how He could use Kaio-ken x 10 to Ginyu, which leads to Him pissing His pants, and stealing Goku body

Thanks, RedReaper providsed a scan up above.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

OP looks good.