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Dragon Ball Z Multipliers Revision [Safe Version]

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Shin was stated to be "A Thousand times stronger than the one you called Frieza," and pretty sure it was referring to the 100% Frieza. 1000x might be Stretching it, but he should easily be Large Star level with Gohan, Dabura, Perfect Cell being stronger than that.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Shin was stated to be "A Thousand times stronger than the one you called Frieza," and pretty sure it was referring to the 100% Frieza. 1000x might be Stretching it, but he should easily be Large Star level with Gohan, Dabura, Perfect Cell being stronger than that.
Click to expand...
The thousand of times stronger is a translation error if i'm not wrong, Shin stated only that each of the 5 Kaioshins were strong enough to destroy Frieza with one single blast.
 
> So we can conclude that Base Gohan/Vegeta/Goku are at least comparable to Kibito, if not stronger than him.

That doesn't line up with Beerus' statement about base Goku though.
 
Err, did he? Because he offered up the possible explanation of Beerus trying to get a rise out of Goku, or that he was being sarcastic but that doesn't seem very convincing.

Why exactly would Beerus completely lie and say he didn't think base Goku could beat Frieza?
 
So, are we using Goku's KKx10 statement or not? Because it's not like it's headcanon that he could do it— Goku would know if he can use the Kaioken right or not.

Also, just to make sure a dead horse is dead, the reason why I feel Kal's argument is faulty isn't just because it's cherrypicking, but because it's cherry picking done by using logic that is inconsistently applied + a liberal use of the term "outlier".

I don't think not to mention the fact that he was the first person to bring up a 1600 multiplier that came from him misinterpreting the situation, and adding all of the multipliers together, not noticing or recognizing the fact that Goku's base shifts to being superior to his previous use of Kaioken, and him being able to use Kaioken again in his new Zenkai Boosted Base that is superior to his previous Kaioken use is why we get what we have. The multipliers don't stack on their own, it's just Goku gets stronger than the use of those multipliers, and then since his Base is superior to that use, he gets this exponential increase over the series.

The Kaioken multipliers don't stack in and of themselves. They refer to the base power. Even the power levels show that they're a linear increase.

The argument that multipliers without feats to support them sounds like some comic vine stuff. "Scaling without feats is stupid", even though the basics of scaling and applying multipliers run on the idea that it makes the most sense given the information we have about the series.

We know Kaioken amps the stats linearly. Not using it for speed because Goku was never out in a scenario where he had to fly out of the solar system and back or because Writers don't do Math or Physics and Toriyama doesn't put enough speed feats in the verse isn't good logic. It would mean that it's improper to apply it to power as well, because Goku hasn't demonstrated any feats above Planet level up until fighting against Frieza, and we would have to list cell as at least equal to Frieza, but "unquantifiably higher" when it not only goes against everything we know about the series and information given to us, but it explicitly omitts that information based on us "not seeing it".

People on Comic Vine think Dragon Ball is Mountain Level because they "don't see" Goku doing the feats for it. Hell, there's people who forgo scaling all together because they find it inflates characters beyond what they show in their stories, despite it being only rational to use them, given the information in the story and what would be required for it to make sense.

Just as saying Frieza can't scale to Goku CREATES plot holes because it makes any sort of physical clash with them be nonsense (Goku can't be mountain level and block Frieza's Dwarf Star Level casual Death Beams— and yet he did, so he should be comparable to Frieza), not applying the speed increase of the Kaioken, but applying the AP stuff doesn't make sense (because of Goku's explicit Statements on the Kaioken's nature). Furthermore, ignoring the Kaioken makes just as little sense given the ability's consistency.

That horse is certainly dead. Best hope it's not revived via Necromancy!

That being said, I knew Beerus's statement was unreliable in that regard. Goku's base has been increasing like crazy with even less training than what he gets after Frieza. Goku should definitely be capable of boxing with Kibito, given the trends. So the story supports this. We finally have a good confirmation of it.
 
What sense does it make to say Base Goku couldn't beat Frieza outside of Beerus's flawed statement. Not only is it really implausible that Goku's training over twice Gohan's age when he killed Cell didn't make him able to stomp Frieza, despite him being known for having large gains in short amounts of time, but Goku could have been Suppressed, or Beerus could have been being a dick and thinking that Goku was worthless and was just downplaying him in general. Even if you don't want to consider the latter, the former is highly likely, given the fact that Beerus shouldn't know how strong Frieza is in his Final Form, because literally no one has made Frieza use his True power before, and Beerus would have killed him instantly if he tried. Because of this inconsistency, it also implies Goku was suppressed to be below that of First Form Frieza initially. Goku was also confident in his ability to wipe Shin away with a simple Ki blast as a Super Saiyan, and Shin says that Frieza is nothing to him. And Piccolo was terrified of Shin's strength, and we all know Big Green is superior to Frieza. Goku being comparable to Kibito makes more sense than Beerus's statement.

Side note; The Son Goku returns Special is canon I think...? Goku laughed at the idea of Frieza level fighters showing up to fight, Cabba— I mean, Tarble— felt that Goku was even stronger than Frieza. Goku let the Kids fight Frieza Level characters instead, thinking it was perfect for them. Though, again, Tarble shouldn't know how strong Frieza really was— it seems Toriyama and Toei have this habit of forgetting how strong people thought Frieza was.
 
Anyway, in agreement: ByAsura, Me, LordGriffin, AKM, Amexim, Ant, Kep, LightinAnt, Dziga, Stefano, Rin, likely Aiden, Qawsed and possibly others.

Disagreement: Kaltias.

I have enough agreements to start most this [aka the attack potency for the char. and a little of speed], the only thing is to consider the possible ginyu saga kkx10 since Amexim explained it, the discussion about the Base Buu Saga Saiyans power is one of the last things to discuss and i've already told my response about it.
 
I'm leaning toward the disagreement side currently, but I'm curious what would be replacing it if we don't use the Kaioken, Cal?
 
So, assuming Kaioken is thrown out everyone becomes "At least 5-B" until Freeza, then everyone gets "At least Low 4-C" until SPC.
 
Scaling upwards without a multiplier or it being very high end on the spectrum is not allowed, and it's a very large difference at that.
 
As I mentioned earlier, I am in agreement as well.


Cherrypicking what Kaio-ken amplifies is something that shouldn't be done. It linearly multiplies all statistics. Strength, Durability, Reactions, and yes, Speed as well.

Saying otherwise is just inaccurate, and using the boost in strength bestowed by Kaio-Ken for AP scaling purposes and not the boost in speed as well is just as inaccurate.

It is all or nothing.


I disagree with the notion of choosing to abandon the Kaio-Ken multipliers. There are consistent and plentiful, as well as a valuable insight into how powerful these characters really are.


I am neutral on the Possibly Kaio-Ken x 10 for Pre-Zenkai Namek Goku though.

Although I think that Goku could do it as he was never one to overinflate his capabilities and power, I am not really sure about using it to scale from something that was never shown -it, to me, is not tangible enough to be used.
 
The Kaioken is explictly show to increase speed multiple times:

http://englishfortamils.com/comics/...agon Ball Z v3&image=Dragon+Ball+Z+v3-144.jpg

http://englishfortamils.com/comics/...agon Ball Z v3&image=Dragon+Ball+Z+v3-145.jpg

^ Can't fly fast enough in time to reach Nappa, uses Kaioken and reaches it.

http://englishfortamils.com/comics/...agon Ball Z v3&image=Dragon+Ball+Z+v3-147.jpg

^ Vegeta states that his speed and power multiplied

http://englishfortamils.com/comics/...agon Ball Z v3&image=Dragon+Ball+Z+v3-148.jpg

http://englishfortamils.com/comics/...agon Ball Z v3&image=Dragon+Ball+Z+v3-149.jpg

^ Kaioken explanation, a multiplication of all stats

http://englishfortamils.com/comics/...agon Ball Z v3&image=Dragon+Ball+Z+v3-150.jpg

^ Kaioken x2 = Doubles Goku's power, proving that Kaioken is linear.

http://englishfortamils.com/comics/...agon Ball Z v3&image=Dragon+Ball+Z+v3-170.jpg

http://englishfortamils.com/comics/...agon Ball Z v3&image=Dragon+Ball+Z+v3-171.jpg

^ Goku states that Vegeta outclasses him in strength and speed, uses Kaioken to match casual Vegeta

http://englishfortamils.com/comics/...agon Ball Z v4&image=Dragon+Ball+Z+v4-008.jpg

^ Another statement, this time from the narrator, that Kaioken doubles your power.
 
I agree with both Matt and Celestial. Kaioken (Kaioken only) seems very straight forward, I am vehemently against regarding it as it is extremely consistent.
 
Saying "they get out of hand" is an empty, meaningless phrase that's just another way of saying "but where are the showings", and we all know that some verses that lean heavily on scaling despite showings is Pokémon. I think the Pokémon scaling is valid, despite it being messier than Dragon Ball. Any criticism would be some comic vine level ignorance about how obvious bull isn't obvious bull— making all Mons scale to each other because the most consistent showings are there— despite it being worthy of the ol' "Spider-Man will never scale to the Hulk" treatment.

I mention it because the multipliers here are of similar validity, if not are of a higher caliber than that in terms of validity. The Multipliers here are really solid and consistent, so ignoring them would be like ignoring scaling. It doesn't make any sense when the whole thing is true— Goku is stronger than what his previous use of the Kaioken would put him at. And since the Kaioken is a linear multiplier, we know how strong Goku is with that. Goku being stronger than that version of himself while using the Kaioken is fact. Scaling him to himself using the Kaioken when he is stronger than that version of himself in that state is the most rational thing since we decided a Ratata shouldn't be able to defeat Dialga, no matter what Pikachu vs Latios and normal Mons vs Arceus shows.

I already said that if we're going to forgo Multipliers that are SOLID as **** and consistent, we might as well do the same with powerscaling, since the main issue people gave with both of those examples is that it goes beyond their showings.

"But with Powerscaling, we're using feats to bring the characters higher!" And with Multipliers, as long as they are consistent, we know exactly how strong a character has gotten, instead of this vague "higher" stuff that would require us to use the Multipliers anyway in a debate, because saying Namek Saga Goku is equal to his previous arc version is blatantly false. So much so to the point that having profiles or keys for those arcs is pointless, considering it requires a Q&A thread to explain "how much higher" they are. Then, we would give them this information.

And I think that being consistent with showings being all important is bullshit for every verse. The 4 pillars of judging a character's stats are Scaling, Feats, Consistency, and Multipliers. Not every single one of these has to be really strong, but like any good argument, there's a requirement for at least some of these to be really strong in order for it to pass.

Dragon Ball's Kaioken Multipliers are hard and consistent, and while it's lacking for the feats to support the boosts from the multipliers, the in verse explanation for the lack of feats for literally everything in the story applies here, just as much as anywhere else. We don't ignore the idea that Goku and Frieza are Dwarf Star Level because Frieza fails to blow up Namek— we don't say Goku is only hypersonic because it took him far less time to fly down snake way than it should.

Obvious PIS is obvious PIS (and I know obvious shit isn't obvious to everyone, but don't get me started on how everything is subjective and therefore conversation is dumb, so let's just do like how humans do in life and pretend that the standards we have for shit is obvious and objective, despite them being the opposite of everything).

The same logic goes with Showings. By refusing to put the data on the Profiles, we are essentially saying that we don't believe Goku is where he really is in power. We're saying that it's doubtful that Goku isn't at least 10x stronger than his Base after fighting Ginyu, despite knowing 110% that Goku wouldn't be able to fight Second Form Frieza even with the 10x boost, and since we know how to increase his actual stats we have by the Kaioken, it's only rational to substitute all the information that is explicitly true.

Point is, it doesn't matter if there's no explicit showings. Everything about this scaling is 100% based in fact. There is no disputing its validity beyond the unreasonable doubt of looking at it and saying "what about feats?! I'm not comfortable rating a character who I know in a quantifiable manner is stronger than his previous showings without the story slapping me on the head with feats that confirms what the basic math the story gave me said!" And dying of an anxiety attack.

Wasn't Cal someone who said that they dislike how people try to ignore clear evidence and refuse to think about the story in favor of being blatantly shown instead of told? Of course, I know that's me paraphrasing, but Cal did say that.
 
So we are ignoring the issue about the speed via multipliers being outlierish?

I saw a metric ton of speed feats posted above.

All of them proved consistent Rel to Sub-Rel speeds. Not FTL+

And if the reason is "in DBS they eventually get better feats", fine by me. I'll just let you know that with that kind of standard, Moon level Roshi is legit because people in DBZ are tier 5.

Anyway, do as you please. I just wanted to start a discussion about the legitimacy of a multiplier that had yet to be checked using our new standards
 
And same for "Goku never showed Kaioken x 10 so we can't scale!"

He said he could do it. Goku knows himself enough to be sure of that. And we explicitly are shown by the power levels that Goku would be at 900,000 vs Frieza's 1M. We're going to use the power levels the way Toriyama intended as well— as estimates for how strong these characters are, and nothing more. So no scaling using the actual numbers— just talking about what the numbers represent in relation to the simple "weaker vs Stronger" thing, alright?

Point is, we know Goku is stronger than he would be even IF he did use a Kaiokenx10. So we can scale from that.
 
Kaltias, they're not Outlierish at all. From what the show explicitly demonstrates, this is the most accurate interpretation of the Kaioken. We know that the speed increases as well as the strength. You yourself admitted that the strength is "consistent", despite there being 0 feats beyond Dwarf Star Level to warrant small Star Level Anyone. Not only do you essential advocate for the dismissal of part of what the Kaioken does, but you're not even consistent with your own reasoning. DB should stay Dwarf Star Level until Beerus by your logic, considering applying the actual events and mechanics of the story isn't good enough to rate them higher. Cell being Solar System isn't valid because "he didn't show it" despite the multiple statements, and despite this site using almost nothing but statements to rate other verses with 0 showings at all.

The Kaioken is in fact a legitimate multiplier. You're attempting to apply a standard that doesn't really apply here, especially since you misunderstood the reason for the MFTL stuff in the first place.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
I agree with both Matt and Celestial. Kaioken (Kaioken only) seems very straight forward, I am vehemently against regarding it as it is extremely consistent.
Click to expand...
I also agree.
 
While the kaioken is a legit multiplier, I feel like people are too quick to ignore the source of all the speed issues which that it is based on a single feat that doesn't have supporting feats from the rest of the series.

I know I've mentioned this before but Relativistic Raditz is the source of all these issues regarding speed.
 
As I already said, I only wanted to raise the issue about the legitimacy of the multiplier

I don't feel like debating this anymore, and I know that I won't convince anyone anyway.

If you want to proceed with the edits, I don't plan to prolong the discussion more than I already did.
 
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