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Dragon Ball Super Episode 63: I'm officially a D*ck and welp time limits are a thing...
- Thread starter TISSG7Redgrave
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High 2-A is 5-D. Jiren getting UI or Kefla getting SSB Evolution won't make them 5-D or give them 5-D power. They most likely remain Low 2-C, maybe 2-C, and if we really really highball and wank a bit, then low end of 2-B.
If it made a 3D character 4D, maybe it can make a 4D character 5D
High 2-A is 5-D. Jiren getting UI or Kefla getting SSB Evolution won't make them 5-D or give them 5-D power. They most likely remain Low 2-C, maybe 2-C, and if we really really highball and wank a bit, then low end of 2-B.
If it made a 3D character 4D, maybe it can make a 4D character 5D
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wtf?!!!! lmao, I'm gonna assume that's an animation mistake. No way Gohan would be unfaithful.AKM sama said:Yoooooooooooo!
Something is definitely happening down there!!!!!
LMFAO
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Everyone's looking at them. Except Krillin, who's looking down in defeat.
I'm not even kidding...
Also, they're the only two smiling...
I'm not even kidding...
Also, they're the only two smiling...
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One thing I find interesting is how Jiren gave Toppo so much crap for giving up who he is, despite Jiren doing the exact same thing.
He attempted to murder a group of innocent people for the sole purpose of showing how easily he could do so. What part of that is "justice" or appropriate for a "Pride Trooper" to do? And what he did wasn't out of necessity or survival like Toppo. It was an act of pure spite and callousness.
Unless you want to believe the even more unsettling implication. Jiren didn't give up who he was. This is the type of person he actually is. Whereas Toppo gave up his identity, Jiren merely gave up his facade.
He attempted to murder a group of innocent people for the sole purpose of showing how easily he could do so. What part of that is "justice" or appropriate for a "Pride Trooper" to do? And what he did wasn't out of necessity or survival like Toppo. It was an act of pure spite and callousness.
Unless you want to believe the even more unsettling implication. Jiren didn't give up who he was. This is the type of person he actually is. Whereas Toppo gave up his identity, Jiren merely gave up his facade.
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"Unless you want to believe the even more unsettling implication. Jiren didn't give up who he was. This is the type of person he actually is. Whereas Toppo gave up his identity, Jiren merely have up his facade."
Dammit Ryu, stop being so insightful ovo.
Dammit Ryu, stop being so insightful ovo.
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Actually, Jiren did give up his pride and went into survival mode when he tried to knock Goku off when he was vulnerable. Goku, in all practicality, defeated him. Then his body collapsed which gave Jiren the opportunity. Jiren himself even said that he takes no pride in eliminating Goku this way, but attempted to do it anyway because he knows it's necessary for survival. But he know he wasn't beating him with his own strenght, which throws his whole worldview out the window.
I liked that Jiren himself acknowledge this, but him losing his cool and attempting to kill the spectators left a bad taste in my mouth. Just another reminder of how they ruined the potential this character had.
I liked that Jiren himself acknowledge this, but him losing his cool and attempting to kill the spectators left a bad taste in my mouth. Just another reminder of how they ruined the potential this character had.
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One of my favorite scenes is when Goku and Jiren fight, Jiren says "I seek for that which lies beyond strength" to which Goku responds "Yeah I want to get strong too".
Not only is it a pretty badass line from Jiren's part, but it's a funny in a subtle way which shows Goku's personality. Along with yet another contrast between the two characters.
One it shows how shallow and a bit dim Goku can be for completely misunderstanding Jiren's point. Jiren says he wants something beyond strength and Goku takes that as Jiren saying he wants strength itself. It's another funny "Goku's an idiot" joke without being super in your face like other ones are.
Two it shows the difference between their motivations for training. For Jiren strength is merely a means to an end. Something that he uses for his ultimate goal. For Goku strength is the ultimate goal. Jiren wants to be strong for the sake of getting something. Goku wants to be strong for the sake of being strong.
When you think about it, this could serve as an alternative explanation to why Goku's motivations allow him to surpass Jiren than just "friendship". Jiren only wants strength to use as a tool to get something else. Goku wants to get strength itself. Strength is secondary in Jiren's mind, yet primary in Goku's. So Goku is far more focussed on actually getting strong than Jiren is.
Not only is it a pretty badass line from Jiren's part, but it's a funny in a subtle way which shows Goku's personality. Along with yet another contrast between the two characters.
One it shows how shallow and a bit dim Goku can be for completely misunderstanding Jiren's point. Jiren says he wants something beyond strength and Goku takes that as Jiren saying he wants strength itself. It's another funny "Goku's an idiot" joke without being super in your face like other ones are.
Two it shows the difference between their motivations for training. For Jiren strength is merely a means to an end. Something that he uses for his ultimate goal. For Goku strength is the ultimate goal. Jiren wants to be strong for the sake of getting something. Goku wants to be strong for the sake of being strong.
When you think about it, this could serve as an alternative explanation to why Goku's motivations allow him to surpass Jiren than just "friendship". Jiren only wants strength to use as a tool to get something else. Goku wants to get strength itself. Strength is secondary in Jiren's mind, yet primary in Goku's. So Goku is far more focussed on actually getting strong than Jiren is.
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@Ryukama I'm gonna be really mad if we never find out what Jiren wants to wish for now. He wants something "beyond strength". That implies that it's still something that's intrinsically related to strength. What the hell could that be? What in the hell would be "beyond" strength? If he simply wanted something like absolute justice, why call that beyond strength? That's just a different thing entirely.
It almost makes me think Goku's "misunderstanding" really wasn't a misunderstanding. Because whatever Jiren wants, it's probably related to strength in some way.
It almost makes me think Goku's "misunderstanding" really wasn't a misunderstanding. Because whatever Jiren wants, it's probably related to strength in some way.
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@Melee My guess is Jiren wants that wish. And he's going to use the wish to bring back his loved ones. You can't bring back the dead with strength alone. So the wish of his is "beyond strength".
Herms said that Jiren's line could also be taken as "something that comes after strength". Which means Jiren will use strength to get to that goal.
Herms said that Jiren's line could also be taken as "something that comes after strength". Which means Jiren will use strength to get to that goal.
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@Ryukama I suppose that could be it, but hearing "beyond strength" makes me think he wants some type of power that he can't get by simply getting stronger and stronger. Almost like what we think of as hax or reality warping, or something that's just unreachable by training over and over, but also something that's probably tied to his worldview. It could be the power to bring back the dead, instead of wishing back the dead it self.
Or maybe he just wants to wish for friends that he can actually count on ovo
Edit: Come to think of it, if he wanted to wish for reliable friends, it almost makes me think that he actually attacked the bystanders out of jealousy of Goku. Jiren himself never had friends he could count on, yet here is Goku who has a bunch of friends and family members he's actually close to and is actually helping him win. Something he probably deep down always wanted but could never get. It's almost like Goku already has something that's beyond strength (friendship).
Jiren wants the power of friendship ovo, but not ovo because I'm somewhat serious.
Or maybe he just wants to wish for friends that he can actually count on ovo
Edit: Come to think of it, if he wanted to wish for reliable friends, it almost makes me think that he actually attacked the bystanders out of jealousy of Goku. Jiren himself never had friends he could count on, yet here is Goku who has a bunch of friends and family members he's actually close to and is actually helping him win. Something he probably deep down always wanted but could never get. It's almost like Goku already has something that's beyond strength (friendship).
Jiren wants the power of friendship ovo, but not ovo because I'm somewhat serious.
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Sorry to keep going on long tirades here. I just really like these past episodes and have really nowhere as to express my opinions.
Of course Jiren isn't the most well written or original character out there, but I like that the manga and these past few episodes have made him an actual character. Pretty much the entire arc he's been nothing but a piece of cardboard with an insanely high power level. Kai's statement "He's strong plain and simple" would've been a legit character analysis of him.
Now while one may argue that his backstory or motives may be "cliche" or "generic", it unravels an actual character who I still find pretty interesting.
For me Jiren is a man who's dedicated to justice due to the trauma he's been through as a child. However this trauma has also left Jiren with a lot of hatred and darkness in his heart, to the point where he doesn't even really know much of what justice really is.
Jiren also wants to never have to experience that pain again. He views personal strength as the way to ensure that, and "weak" reliance on others to be what caused that tragedy.
Therefore he's pursued "absolute strength" and isolated himself from all bonds in the process. However now his strength has now failed him, and the only explanation anyone has for why he's being beaten is because his opponent relied on his friends.
This fact enrages Jiren because it contradicts everything he thought was the problem and solution to his troubles. Relying on others made Goku stronger than Jiren. His entire ideaology is falling part.
Jiren lashes out and tries to insist that it isn't his beliefs that can be negated so easily, but Goku's. As such he attempts to murder the spectators, an act that is undeniably unfitting for a man of justice Jiren claims to be.
Not only that, but Goku ended up saving his friends and defeating Jiren with his friends being the cause of his strength. All of Jiren's core values of strength, justice and self reliance have been destroyed. And now Jiren is going to experience the pain he promised himself to prevent in the beginning.
He lies as nothing but an empty shell of his former self awaiting destruction. Then Goku's body takes its toll. Jiren has a second chance at everything, but only in the most dishonorable way. Jiren betrayed the last bit of his principals that he had. But it'll all be worth it as long as he gets that wins. Everything will all be worth it as long as he wins...
Essays and rants over ovo
Of course Jiren isn't the most well written or original character out there, but I like that the manga and these past few episodes have made him an actual character. Pretty much the entire arc he's been nothing but a piece of cardboard with an insanely high power level. Kai's statement "He's strong plain and simple" would've been a legit character analysis of him.
Now while one may argue that his backstory or motives may be "cliche" or "generic", it unravels an actual character who I still find pretty interesting.
For me Jiren is a man who's dedicated to justice due to the trauma he's been through as a child. However this trauma has also left Jiren with a lot of hatred and darkness in his heart, to the point where he doesn't even really know much of what justice really is.
Jiren also wants to never have to experience that pain again. He views personal strength as the way to ensure that, and "weak" reliance on others to be what caused that tragedy.
Therefore he's pursued "absolute strength" and isolated himself from all bonds in the process. However now his strength has now failed him, and the only explanation anyone has for why he's being beaten is because his opponent relied on his friends.
This fact enrages Jiren because it contradicts everything he thought was the problem and solution to his troubles. Relying on others made Goku stronger than Jiren. His entire ideaology is falling part.
Jiren lashes out and tries to insist that it isn't his beliefs that can be negated so easily, but Goku's. As such he attempts to murder the spectators, an act that is undeniably unfitting for a man of justice Jiren claims to be.
Not only that, but Goku ended up saving his friends and defeating Jiren with his friends being the cause of his strength. All of Jiren's core values of strength, justice and self reliance have been destroyed. And now Jiren is going to experience the pain he promised himself to prevent in the beginning.
He lies as nothing but an empty shell of his former self awaiting destruction. Then Goku's body takes its toll. Jiren has a second chance at everything, but only in the most dishonorable way. Jiren betrayed the last bit of his principals that he had. But it'll all be worth it as long as he gets that wins. Everything will all be worth it as long as he wins...
Essays and rants over ovo
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No! I need more Ryu-rants in my life! ovo
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Sorry. I probably didn't see your post saying a similar thing lol Hard to keep up with every post. But hey, great minds think alike?LordWhis said:
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Has One-Punch Man parodied Nakama power yet in the manga? If not, it would be hilarious if they did.
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@PaChi 2 How about reading it? My essay is an analysis on how Jiren's character has been expanded upon since his initial apperances.
Jiren called Toppo pathetic for it and praised Vegeta for defeating Toppo without having to give up who he is.
@Melee Not yet as I can recall, but I have always thought the same thing.
The difference between Goku and Jiren's motives remind of Saitama vs Vaccine Man. VM has all these deep reasons for wanting to be strong, Saitama does it "just for fun" which VM is disgusted in.
Jiren called Toppo pathetic for it and praised Vegeta for defeating Toppo without having to give up who he is.
@Melee Not yet as I can recall, but I have always thought the same thing.
The difference between Goku and Jiren's motives remind of Saitama vs Vaccine Man. VM has all these deep reasons for wanting to be strong, Saitama does it "just for fun" which VM is disgusted in.
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It's an essay over Jiren starting out that way, but slowly developing into something (though with a lot of generic and cliche tropes, but also has qualities that could be appreciated).PaChi2 said:
I could appreciate some of the depth Jiren has gotten now, but I really just don't like the overall direction they went with. I kind of want to say that I liked Jiren better when we knew nothing about him and his personality, and he was just a strong stoic guy. At least there's nothing to ruin in that state.
In other words, I'll take no back story and character development over a generic backstory and character development.
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@Melee You summed up perfectly what my essay was about, but I personally disagree with the paragraphs after. Even a bad character is better than no character at all in my opinion. And I don't think Jiren is that bad. I'd consider him to be around an average character.
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I'm still hoping that 17 and frieza fuse, 17's personality will be dominant and he'll win the tournament and ask for a boat with all of his friends and loved ones (Which includes everybody who died during the tournament !) on it.
It will be the sweetest and most fitting end to Super !
I can imagine the final scene- 17 is with his (full) family having fun. Vegeta is at a table with the U6 saiyans, learning about them. The GoDs are having some stupid argument (perhaps relating to rebuilding the universes ?) and the angels are getting ready to intervene. Tien and chiaotzu are in a corner smiling. Gotenks and Buu are fighting over food. Retired Belmod is doing a clown show for the children (including the Zenos). Roshi is being Pervy. And on one deck, Goku is trying to unconventionally teach UI to Gohan, Piccolo, Hit and Beerus while Whis (with sunglasses and a beach hat) watches on, smiling.
It will be the sweetest and most fitting end to Super !
I can imagine the final scene- 17 is with his (full) family having fun. Vegeta is at a table with the U6 saiyans, learning about them. The GoDs are having some stupid argument (perhaps relating to rebuilding the universes ?) and the angels are getting ready to intervene. Tien and chiaotzu are in a corner smiling. Gotenks and Buu are fighting over food. Retired Belmod is doing a clown show for the children (including the Zenos). Roshi is being Pervy. And on one deck, Goku is trying to unconventionally teach UI to Gohan, Piccolo, Hit and Beerus while Whis (with sunglasses and a beach hat) watches on, smiling.
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