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Dragon Ball Super - Broly and Gogeta Justification Proposal Remade
- Thread starter Firestorm808
- Start date
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- Tags
- dragon ball
- Status
- 91
- 9
Multiple issues with this thread.
1. It doesn't say the boundries of the universe couldn't handle them. It says the dimensional boundries or walls couldn't. If you're versed with Dragon Ball, you'll know that Earth is surrounded by dimensional walls. There are literally dimensional walls in the sky. Breaking them can lead to a parallel world. This was demonstrated by Buuhan against Vegito. This is also how they could travel between worlds when they were stuck in the HTC. So the walls or boundries it reffers to are not necessarily the universe's boundries. It can simply reffer to the dimensional boundries that surround Earth and are located in it's sky, which are much smaller than the universe.
2. There is nothing to suggest that they disintegrated the dimension. The scan says that the light of the dimension "crumbles away", which is just saying that they're leaving the world. We know that the "breaking" or "shattering" Broly and Gogeta do does not destroy the worlds they do it in, as Earth and the universe were completely fine. Furthermore, the size of the other dimension is never even given to begin with.
3. The "shattering reality" thing is not from the novel. It's somebody online describing the fight and how they interpretated it. Reality was fine. Hence, again, even Earth was not destroyed.
This feat is not all that impressive relative to other feats we have. And it's very vague. What dimensional barrier? We have multiple plausible and consistent explanations that are not "the boundries of the entire universe". What's the size of the other dimension? We don't know. What's more, these characters already scale at low 2-C even without this feat. There's no need to go through so many assumptions to try to treat this feat as low 2-C.
1. It doesn't say the boundries of the universe couldn't handle them. It says the dimensional boundries or walls couldn't. If you're versed with Dragon Ball, you'll know that Earth is surrounded by dimensional walls. There are literally dimensional walls in the sky. Breaking them can lead to a parallel world. This was demonstrated by Buuhan against Vegito. This is also how they could travel between worlds when they were stuck in the HTC. So the walls or boundries it reffers to are not necessarily the universe's boundries. It can simply reffer to the dimensional boundries that surround Earth and are located in it's sky, which are much smaller than the universe.
2. There is nothing to suggest that they disintegrated the dimension. The scan says that the light of the dimension "crumbles away", which is just saying that they're leaving the world. We know that the "breaking" or "shattering" Broly and Gogeta do does not destroy the worlds they do it in, as Earth and the universe were completely fine. Furthermore, the size of the other dimension is never even given to begin with.
3. The "shattering reality" thing is not from the novel. It's somebody online describing the fight and how they interpretated it. Reality was fine. Hence, again, even Earth was not destroyed.
This feat is not all that impressive relative to other feats we have. And it's very vague. What dimensional barrier? We have multiple plausible and consistent explanations that are not "the boundries of the entire universe". What's the size of the other dimension? We don't know. What's more, these characters already scale at low 2-C even without this feat. There's no need to go through so many assumptions to try to treat this feat as low 2-C.
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No. That's flawed. They never tried to destroy the dimension, so the dimension didn't tank energy the universe couldn't handle. The universe tanked SSJB Gogeta and FPSSJ Broly fighting after the powered up even further. So this logic doesn't apply. We can't judge how durable the dimension is based on merely "The dimension didn't instantly shatter when they fought.". That's like saying Earth is more durable than the entire dimension because it "tanked their energy".
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That's where you got it all wrong dude.
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Point is, this feat is not 2-C.
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Yeah it isn't 2-C.
Solid Low 2-C.
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This feat is not low 2-C. So no.
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I forgot to mention in my original response, but the final link which OP claims is a "confirmation" that it reffers to the universe, and has been used as evidence by the OP of the last thread, is not such in any way. It's pure dishonesty.
1. The quote is not from the novel or the movie. Somebody is being quoted on his own personal description of the fight. So him saying "universe" does not mean much when every translation says something different.
2. The underlined part where somebody says "Their power was too immense & too much for the universe to handle which is why reality shatters." is literally a random online user giving his interpretation on somebody else giving his interpretation. So essentially, this is literally OP using a random online as a source. And that same random is also using yet another random online as a source. The fact that OP and other people crop it out, present it as actual evidence and claim it's an official confirmation is nothing short or dishonesty in my mind. The fact that this is even attempted to be presented as evidence in this wiki is ridiculous.
As I've explained, nothing about the statement suggests it reffers to the universe's boundries and we have multiple equally, if not more, plausible and consistent explanations other than this.
I even found the exact comment that OP used as "official confirmation". From a random on Quora quoting another random as a source.
1. The quote is not from the novel or the movie. Somebody is being quoted on his own personal description of the fight. So him saying "universe" does not mean much when every translation says something different.
2. The underlined part where somebody says "Their power was too immense & too much for the universe to handle which is why reality shatters." is literally a random online user giving his interpretation on somebody else giving his interpretation. So essentially, this is literally OP using a random online as a source. And that same random is also using yet another random online as a source. The fact that OP and other people crop it out, present it as actual evidence and claim it's an official confirmation is nothing short or dishonesty in my mind. The fact that this is even attempted to be presented as evidence in this wiki is ridiculous.
As I've explained, nothing about the statement suggests it reffers to the universe's boundries and we have multiple equally, if not more, plausible and consistent explanations other than this.
I even found the exact comment that OP used as "official confirmation". From a random on Quora quoting another random as a source.
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Why are you refuting an OP which has already been rejected?
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Because as far as I've seen, nobody else has addressed the arguments properly. Nor has anyone else pointed out the flaws on top of flaws with this thread and this interpretation of the feat in general, which has been reposted several times on this wiki. Since these scans are being posted a lot lately, I figured that by debunking the thread in-depth, I will lower the amount of misinformation that's being spread. Rejecting something alone is not gonna convince people. Which is why explaining why it's wrong matters. At least in my opinion.
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Lol.ok
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Entering Dimension
それを利用して距離をとったゴジータが、腰こしのあたりで両手を重かさね、気き功こう波はの構えをとった。それに反応し、ブロリーも気功波の構えを取る。 「はあっ!!」 「がぁっ!!」 異次元の威い力りよくを持ったエネルギーが、ふたりの間で激突した。閃せん光こうがほとばしり、音のない爆発が広がった。 次の瞬間、ゴジータとブロリーは、異い様ような光の渦うず巻まく空間のなかにいた。 次元の境きよう界かいが、ふたりの放つエネルギーに耐えきれず、裂さけてしまったのだ。 その異変も気にかけず、ブロリーが突進する。さらに数発の応おう酬しゆうのあと、ゴジータの蹴りで吹っ飛ばされたブロリーは、空中で急ブレーキをかけ、体を震ふるわせながら気合いをこめていく。
Broly smashing Gogeta and causing more shattering
「うおあああああ!!」 爆発的な気の解放とともに、ブロリーの髪が緑がかった輝きを放ちはじめる。その気が、さらに大きく跳はねあがった。 だが、ゴジータは、それにもひるまず突っこんだ。 ブロリーの頰ほおにゴジータのパンチが食いこむ。顔を傾けただけでそれを受け止めたブロリーは、固めた拳をゴジータの腹に打ちこんだ。 「うあっ！」 一瞬、動きの止まったゴジータに、ブロリーの蹴りがまともにヒットする。そのまま吹き飛ばされ、空間の壁に激突したゴジータに、追ってきたブロリーが拳を叩きこんだ。 きらめくエネルギーの破は片へんをまき散らしながら、ゴジータがさらに吹き飛んでいく。 「だあーっ」
Exiting Dimension
その攻撃をかいくぐり、ブロリーはゴジータのもとへ向かう。ゴジータもまた、衝しよう撃げき波はを残してブロリーに向けて飛んだ。 ふたりのパンチが激突したとたん、ふたたび空間に異変が起きた。異空間の光が砕け散るように消え、もとの世界の風景が戻ってくる。 ブロリーとゴジータは、距離を置いて地上に降おりていた。 ブロリーは着地の勢いを殺しきれず、ずるずると滑すべってようやく止まる。なんとか構えは取っているが、ハアハアと肩で息をしていた。 「へへへ……」 一方、ゴジータはまったく疲れたようすがなかった。身を低くして構え、相手の出方をうかがう。 戦いは、終わりを迎むかえようとしていた。
"As Broly lands a punch, Gogeta is blown away. But using this to his advantage, the Gogeta who had just gained distance gathers his hands at hip level in preparation for a ki blast stance. In response to that, Broly does the same."
Haaa!! Gaaa!!
Energy containing the might of a different dimension collides between the two. A flash of light surges as a silent explosion expanded. The next instant, Gogeta and Broly found themselves within a dimension of swirling strange lights. The boundary of the dimension could not withstand the energy released by them and got torn apart.
Not even bothering with the event that had just happened, Broly charges forward. After a few more exchanges Broly gets blown away by Gogeta's kick, but quickly manages to stop himself mid-air and raise his power as his body begins to shake.
Uuoooooo!!
As Broly releases an explosive ki, his hair begins to glow green. His ki had just shot up even more. However, Gogeta proceeded to charge without wincing. Gogeta lands a punch on Broly's cheek, but all it does is tilt Broly's head."
Gogeta lands a punch on Broly's cheek, but all it does is tilt Broly's head, who then clenches his fist and drives it into Gogeta's belly.
Ugh!
In an instant, Broly proceeds to land a solid kick on the stunned Gogeta. Broly chases after Gogeta, who gets blown away and crashes into the walls of the dimension, and drives his fist into him. As the glittering energy gets smashed and blown into pieces, Gogeta is blown away once more.
Exiting Dimension
As Broly dodges the attack, he makes his way towards Gogeta. After leaving the opposing shockwave, Gogeta rushes towards Broly as well. The instant their punches collided, a chance is once again triggered within the dimension. As the light of the dimension crumbles away, the scenery of the original world returns. Broly and Gogeta land on the ground, keeping at a distance to each other. Unable to fully withstand the momentum of the landing, Broly slips along trailingly until he finally stops. Although he had assumed somewhat of a stance, he was breathing heavily.
Hehehe...
On the other hand, it seemed like Gogeta wasn't tired at all. He readied his pose, laying low and observed his opponent. The battle looked like it was about to end.
それを利用して距離をとったゴジータが、腰こしのあたりで両手を重かさね、気き功こう波はの構えをとった。それに反応し、ブロリーも気功波の構えを取る。 「はあっ!!」 「がぁっ!!」 異次元の威い力りよくを持ったエネルギーが、ふたりの間で激突した。閃せん光こうがほとばしり、音のない爆発が広がった。 次の瞬間、ゴジータとブロリーは、異い様ような光の渦うず巻まく空間のなかにいた。 次元の境きよう界かいが、ふたりの放つエネルギーに耐えきれず、裂さけてしまったのだ。 その異変も気にかけず、ブロリーが突進する。さらに数発の応おう酬しゆうのあと、ゴジータの蹴りで吹っ飛ばされたブロリーは、空中で急ブレーキをかけ、体を震ふるわせながら気合いをこめていく。
Broly smashing Gogeta and causing more shattering
「うおあああああ!!」 爆発的な気の解放とともに、ブロリーの髪が緑がかった輝きを放ちはじめる。その気が、さらに大きく跳はねあがった。 だが、ゴジータは、それにもひるまず突っこんだ。 ブロリーの頰ほおにゴジータのパンチが食いこむ。顔を傾けただけでそれを受け止めたブロリーは、固めた拳をゴジータの腹に打ちこんだ。 「うあっ！」 一瞬、動きの止まったゴジータに、ブロリーの蹴りがまともにヒットする。そのまま吹き飛ばされ、空間の壁に激突したゴジータに、追ってきたブロリーが拳を叩きこんだ。 きらめくエネルギーの破は片へんをまき散らしながら、ゴジータがさらに吹き飛んでいく。 「だあーっ」
Exiting Dimension
その攻撃をかいくぐり、ブロリーはゴジータのもとへ向かう。ゴジータもまた、衝しよう撃げき波はを残してブロリーに向けて飛んだ。 ふたりのパンチが激突したとたん、ふたたび空間に異変が起きた。異空間の光が砕け散るように消え、もとの世界の風景が戻ってくる。 ブロリーとゴジータは、距離を置いて地上に降おりていた。 ブロリーは着地の勢いを殺しきれず、ずるずると滑すべってようやく止まる。なんとか構えは取っているが、ハアハアと肩で息をしていた。 「へへへ……」 一方、ゴジータはまったく疲れたようすがなかった。身を低くして構え、相手の出方をうかがう。 戦いは、終わりを迎むかえようとしていた。
"As Broly lands a punch, Gogeta is blown away. But using this to his advantage, the Gogeta who had just gained distance gathers his hands at hip level in preparation for a ki blast stance. In response to that, Broly does the same."
Haaa!! Gaaa!!
Energy containing the might of a different dimension collides between the two. A flash of light surges as a silent explosion expanded. The next instant, Gogeta and Broly found themselves within a dimension of swirling strange lights. The boundary of the dimension could not withstand the energy released by them and got torn apart.
Not even bothering with the event that had just happened, Broly charges forward. After a few more exchanges Broly gets blown away by Gogeta's kick, but quickly manages to stop himself mid-air and raise his power as his body begins to shake.
Uuoooooo!!
As Broly releases an explosive ki, his hair begins to glow green. His ki had just shot up even more. However, Gogeta proceeded to charge without wincing. Gogeta lands a punch on Broly's cheek, but all it does is tilt Broly's head."
Gogeta lands a punch on Broly's cheek, but all it does is tilt Broly's head, who then clenches his fist and drives it into Gogeta's belly.
Ugh!
In an instant, Broly proceeds to land a solid kick on the stunned Gogeta. Broly chases after Gogeta, who gets blown away and crashes into the walls of the dimension, and drives his fist into him. As the glittering energy gets smashed and blown into pieces, Gogeta is blown away once more.
Exiting Dimension
As Broly dodges the attack, he makes his way towards Gogeta. After leaving the opposing shockwave, Gogeta rushes towards Broly as well. The instant their punches collided, a chance is once again triggered within the dimension. As the light of the dimension crumbles away, the scenery of the original world returns. Broly and Gogeta land on the ground, keeping at a distance to each other. Unable to fully withstand the momentum of the landing, Broly slips along trailingly until he finally stops. Although he had assumed somewhat of a stance, he was breathing heavily.
Hehehe...
On the other hand, it seemed like Gogeta wasn't tired at all. He readied his pose, laying low and observed his opponent. The battle looked like it was about to end.
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Didn't OP already show the translations? I don't see the point in posting them again.
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Hey, would Golden Frieza's shockwave sending SSJ Broly flying back some distance upon transformation be worth adding to the Golden Frieza key?
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Imo not really. To me Broly seemed to just be surprised by the transformation itself. It didn't really effect him at all.
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I forgot what the topic was. I think it was agreed the thing mentioned as Broly's own feat was agreed to not be a Low 2-C feat on its own. But there were talks about updating Golden Frieza's powerscaling justifications.
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As far as I am aware, the topics being discussed were attempting to give Broly and Gogeta Low 2-C justifications for creating and subsequently shattering a dimension (rejected, compensated with Limited Space-Time Manipulation for both) and giving Golden Frieza additional justifications for Low 2-C via withstanding Broly's onslaught (approved).
Aside from that, I have no idea what else is supposed to be going on here.
Aside from that, I have no idea what else is supposed to be going on here.
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Buuhan is already accepted as: It should be noted that Super Buu (with Gohan absorbed) could perform a Universe level+ feat via chain reaction with his Vice Shout. The technique warps space and breaks dimensional walls which would eventually cause the universe to collapse. However, this feat does not scale to other characters as they have never replicated it.) The wording here is used similarly but they did this with mere punches and it looks like they were using so much power the dimensional walls and universe couldn't handle it which transported them into a new dimension/reality
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Okay. Thank you for the reply. That seems fine to apply then.
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Why isn’t it being accepted?
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I'm fine with updating friezas justification
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Yeah, that is something I already agreed with.
Vietthai96
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I thought this finish already????. but anyway adding further justification for Frieza durability is good for me
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If they got transported because their power was surpassed the space time wouldn’t they scale to it fully?
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Yes, it's fine.
Spinoirr
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Yeah, the same thing happened in the manga so any one above ssj broly is low 2-C?
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Disagree with gogeta and broly but agree with freeza.
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No, I don't believe so. As I mentioned, the series of events indicates that they broke their way into another dimension, or possibly even created the space with their power, during their battle and simultaneously destroyed it. Much like Buuhan using his Vice Shout to make a portal out of that particular dimension through raw power, this would only indicate that they were able to casually warp space and time in order to breach through to another dimension during their battle. And, as stated previously, if we don't know the size of the space in which they destroyed was actually universal in size, then we cannot award them a Low 2-C for the feat.
Unless we're suddenly going to give Buuhan Low 2-C for the exact same thing. Or Vegeta for destroying the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Which is rather silly, in my opinion.
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Looking at the pages, it seems that these proposed changes have already been applied.
So...I'm pretty sure the business of this thread has been finished. I would say to close it for now, and if there's anything else anyone wants to say, they can request to have it reopened or make a new thread on the subject.
So...I'm pretty sure the business of this thread has been finished. I would say to close it for now, and if there's anything else anyone wants to say, they can request to have it reopened or make a new thread on the subject.
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