Dragon Ball: 3-A Macrocosm

[Tyranno223]

No, I'm pretty sure Whiz mentions this at some point around the very first few episodes of DBS

No, he's never been stated or shown to do that.

 

[Tyranno223]

prove it, cause you already misremembered one time, and I don't remember that

Damn, that's twice I was a second too slow.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Then stop using the anti feats for the movement stuff, cause you're arguing indirectly against them being anti feats

Okay, we're done with this point now, right?

I'm giving an alternative look to show it's something that people have considered, and my stance on that is that it's not a real anti feat for the cosmology

Unless given enough evidence, a contradiction with conventional logic is an anti-feat.
2+2 won't be 5 in fiction unless stated so, because 2+2 is conventionally 4.

Not really, it's literally a good piece of evidence that was never discredited

Chouzenshuu says in it's first page that it's the reviewed and improved version of the Daizenshuu, any info that has not made into Chouzenshuu is discredited.

It's like a game update, or a manga redraw, the old dialogue is no longer canon.

It also traveled to u6 too

Which is why U6 and U7 are not in different spacetimes.

a wall is a non-abiguous boundary

It's position can be ambiguous.
It's composition can be ambiguous.
We don't know

The proof is in them moving between the separate dimensions.

Circular logic.
"SDB don't debunk seperate dimension U6 and U7 because it can travel through separate dimensions like U6 and U7"

The SDB are meant to discredit the idea of U6 and U7 being separate dimensions.

Straw man again, not a random guess, as the evidence points us to it

We only see physical movement.

the evidence is them doing so, despite there being walls as is stated by the chozenshuu. That already implies theres something special about them moving, proving it's not out of the question.

The wall separates the afterlife and the universe, not two universes.

 

[Nostredam]

What??? Dude, what are you on? What else could they possibly be talking about? Have you even seen the scans in the dragon box saying the kaioshin realm is a separate dimension too?

More like what are you on, because being called a "separate dimension" is by no means proof of a different space-time continuum, just different space. This is standardly applied to any pocket space that doesn't satisfy the conditions of the Tiering System in the Low 2-C section:

Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale.

Following your logic, any pocket dimension in fiction would be automatically Low 2-C in size if it's stated that said dimension is "separated" from the universe (which just includes its 3D space, not even the four dimensional continuum in it).

What else do you want them to tell you to tell you that they're separate spacetime continuums? they're stated separate dimensions and also separated by spacetime. They're inaccessible by normal 3d movement. It makes no sense.

Your text comprehension is something else ... the "separated by spacetime" part is not even on this section, as it only appears in the Afterlife quote. All showed here, in this section, is literally boundaries in the same space-time continuum, which by itself doesn't support anything regarding 2-C ratings, as I've explained in the first parts of the OP which you appearently ignored. There's not "separate spacetime continuum", only separated regions of the same continuum.

Also, where is the proof of it being "inaccessible" (in a mathematical sense, like a higher-dimensional space) by normal 3D movement?

This is so unrelated, it literally has nothing to do with anything.

It has to do with everything, as even things like black holes (3D events) can distort the fabric of spacetime due to its mass and being a boundary to it, which precisely discards mentions like "dimensional walls" to prove full 4D independent spacetime continuums. Again, that's already in the OP, you conveniently just answered what suited better for your "reasoning".

That's not what was being used, the statement about the seaprate realms being separated by spacetime is what shows it

And who says I have to reply to what you want in the first place? Lol dude. This section refers to the fact that people (not specifically you) use the "dimensional walls" quote to prove that the realms are separated by spacetime continuums, which is not. The quote of "separated by spacetime", again, is not on this section. Don't fool yourself with that Straw Man and actually READ the OP.

That's not what the kanji says! the kanji says jikuu, which means spacetime.

Thanks for confirming that you didn't actually read the thread; Quoting myself:

People would say that the narrator is indeed talking about a 4D Space-Time Continuum for the Afterlife, because he mentions Jikū, which relates to four dimensional continuum. While that is true, this is not the only definition of Jikū

You're pretty much here just to state what you like it to be instead of reading the proposals and arguments from the thread. Either you are intellectually dishonest or simply too self-absorbed to actually care from people's opinion that differs from yours.

This doesn't say 3d wall.. ever!!!

The wall is not 3D despite literally separating a 3D construct like the Living World (a.k.a Universe with planets, stars, etc)? I see. I guess the wall is 4D because that's what your mind give you to interpret ...

They can be a small distance within a 4th axis

No source for that one. The distance is 3D basing off the entire premisse of the guide asserting that the realms are physically separated from each other (like all the 3D matter from the universe). Again, read the OP.

Forgot to respond to this, there doesn't need to be an uncountably infinite distance between 2 spacetime continuums? They can be aligned in a 4th axis of space, and have a finite distance bewtween them.

Eh dude ... you are literally talking about an fourth SPATIAL dimension ... the entire topic here is the given Spacetime Continuum explained in Einstein's Theory of Relativity, where the fourth dimension is time, and not a spatial measure like the other three dimensions of space.

Jisho lists ONLY spacetime and space-time as the definitions, not space and time...

And how exactly that disproves the Wikitionary and the already explained context about the scene? Again, you conveniently reply what you want.

Completely incorrect? You can have multiple spacetime continuums in the same larger structure. not a debunk of anything. Things like dc has hypertime, which encompasses an infinite multiverse.

Do you realize how bad your argument is? It's not like I'm saying that some fictions can't have multiple STC in the same larger structure (that's why the Macrocosm is argued to be 2-C after all), but the entire point is that time travels can create a full copy of the Macrocosm despite them being realized in any area of it. Zamasu/Trunks/etc by making time travels in the Living World also affects the temporal axis of regions like the Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm, which is why Zamasu could kill the 12 Gods of Destruction in the first place. If the Macrocosm had separate spacetime continuums, then said time travels could only, for example, make a copy of the Living World, not the other structures.

Also, what kind of example is that? The Hypertime from DC Comics can fit in having multiple STC in said context because the timelines from it diverge from the existing ones, creating new realities and sometimes overlapping with others before diverging again. Literally, your example is simply Wrong with an Capital W.

it would still be special movement.

There is no "special movement" dude. The way Whis and other angels travel from point A to point B is by physical and standard travel measured by also standard formulas like V = D / T. Whis literally states that he need 26 minutes to travel from Beerus' planet to Kaio's planet, despite Beerus' planet being on the Living World as showed before, and despite Kaio's planet being on the Afterlife.

Next:​

1. The RoSaT being outside of U7 statement irrelevant now, per these threads where it's been accepted that U7 usually refers to the Living World, and RoSaT itself was re-accepted as being part of the Macrocosm.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-cosmology-minor-revision.153563/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/reintroducting-htc-to-the-macrocosm-dbs.152032/

The Universe 7 does not refer to the Living World. I literally showed a scan where it can be see clearly that the 12 Universes have their own Macrocosm plus Kaioshin Realm. Whatever headcanon there is in those two threads, they won't change the aforementioned fact.

2. RoSaT or Sugoroku Space were never accepted to be Low 2-C structures on the Wiki, just planet sized space-times, which is accepted to be a thing per Wiki Standards. This is a thing for countless verses. You're going have to change the Standards themselves to say being Earth sized somehow means they can't be space-times.

I never claimed they were accepted to be Low 2-C, that's why I typed this:

I'm not entirely sure if this wiki uses the RoSaT as a supporting evidence for 2-C Macrocosm, but regardless, I'll address it as well.

I also never claimed that you can't have an earth-sized spacetime, I said that you can't have an earth-sized spacetime continuum.

3. The Sugoroku Space isn't reached through a wormhole, the DB wiki is a non canon fan source. Nowhere in the show or any official source is it said they used a wormhole to get there, it's never elaborated how the Space Tanuki ended up falling into there.

You are right. The DB wiki was used simply as elaboration on how the SS works; albeit it doesn't change the premisse of the argument.

And what you're arguing about it being a different region of the universe while simultaneously acknowledging it being between dimensions is not only self contradictory, it goes against all given information on it where it's shown to be a completely different place from dimensions like the Universe and Kaioshin Realm, existing between space-times.

It's not "self contradictory". It is a region of the universe precisely because it is a place between dimensions (space and time) of said universe. Really, the very link explains that:

The wormhole theory postulates that a theoretical passage through space-time could create shortcuts for long journeys across the universe. Wormholes are predicted by the theory of general relativity. But be wary: wormholes bring with them the dangers of sudden collapse, high radiation and dangerous contact with exotic matter.

The OP already asserts that the idea of existing out of something or between something is not remotely close to prove a different four dimensional continuum, so I dunno why you act like this is some special proof.

And I'm pretty sure even Wormhole theory does propose it can connect different space-times.

Quoting myself again:

While in some sci-fi verses an wormhole can connect to parallel universes (or timelines), there's no evidence for that in Dragon Ball and, as such, we have to use the standard definition of a wormhole, which doesn't prove the existence of more than one space-time continuum.

Just read the OP. Moving:

This is such a gross misinterpretation of the dictionary entry. It's not saying it can mean "space and time as separate elements", because "Time and Space" and "Space-time" can absolutely be synonymous as different ways of referring to the same thing as 4-D spacetime.

In this case, the structure of the word makes it very clear it does, because it's literally the japanese equivalent of "space-time" as in, the singular, compound noun.

空間 "Space"
時間 "Time"
時空 "Space-Time"
By nature it's not referring "time" and "space" separately, because it's literally the single compound noun in itself that merges the two into space-time.

This is actually the only good argument so far. I can agree that space and time can be synonymous for "spacetime", but I also explained why there's a context behind the scene that just can't be ignored so easily when arguing about the Afterlife being another spacetime continuum. Hence, it can also stick with both terms separately due to that reasoning. Of course, if you actually refute the inconsistencies, your argument will be much more credible.

Being figuratively (or even literally) above the universe isn't mutually exclusive with being a different dimension at all.

It is a direct proof that the Macrocosm's areas are separated physically from each other. That's literally stated in the first scan of this section and complemented with others. Also, I never said (again) that it's not a different dimension, I said it's not a spacetime continuum. It's not figurative either, don't know where you get that from.

And that description about a physical wall with stamps is literally just metaphorical description of the visual representation map, the series itself clearly shows there's no such thing when showing the universe.

It's not metaphorical or "visual", it's literally a direct statement asserting the limits of the universe, with said wall being one of them. It's not needed to be shown visually when descriptions about the place cover it; that doesn't debunk nothing at all.

And the last scan about having marked limits or a poorly defined border (literally abstract things) has zero bearing on whether it's a different dimension and space-time.

Quoting myself yet again:

So we can have in mind that the realms of the Macrocosm share the same space and the only limits/borders between them are literally spatially based (their position in space, like the Afterlife being above the universe), with some of those limits being even poorly defined. Indeed, nothing even close to be a uncountable infinity gap, which is the distance between two 4D space-time continuums.

The Macrocosm having marked limits and a poorly defined boundary between its regions seems like the distance of two 4D structures for you?

This whole part is just the weirdest circular reasoning with a clear confirmation bias to interpret everything in a way that implies they're the same space when they're not.

Instead of explaining why each quote is supposedly wrong, you opted for calling me bias. Nice copium.

The distance between space-times or how they're separated and what it means for this sort of thing is completely unquantifiable by any conventional metric for this to matter, it's complete psuedoscience.

Indeed, it's unquantifiable by using 3D metric. Meanwhile, the showings of the Instant Transmission ability only reaching finite distance while still being able to get to the Afterlife from earth pretty much sums it up that the distance between them is not even infinite in 3D measures, much less 4D ones.

It's never stated anywhere that Shin can't travel through space-time without the Time Ring, he just needs it to travel to the different parallel timelines which are already considered higher structures to the conventional space-time universes and their Afterlives.

He literally needs it to pass through timelines individually, it's on the very scan. Also, the Macrocosm share the same temporal axis, meaning that the Time Rings are "higher structures" because they encompassess said singular time axis that covers all given realms of the Macrocosm. Again, it's on the OP.

The same applies to each parallel timeline having their own versions of the 12 universes themselves, but this logic isn't accepted for compositing them into one space-time, so there's no reason it would change anything here, now that the Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm have indeed been accepted as space-times too.

Because the 12 Universes also share the same spacetime continuums. It's literally why Zamasu could kill the 12 GoD's in the same timeline. The individual universes wouldn't be affected by the temporal change of a single one of them if they were independent spacetime continuums.

Next:​

Well since everyone has already pretty much responded I still do wanna address the Gohan bit Goku literally did sense Gohan’s Ki which is how they got there in the first place so I don’t know why you’re claiming he didn’t? Also he senses kid trunks Ki from Beerus’s planet as well so those are some weird points

He literally didn't sensed. Check:

No, it's just like I thought; I can't lock onto anyone's energy from here, it's too faint.

The context is talking about the range of the IT:

Yeah but ... this far?

He could only sense Gohan when the latter goes Super Saiyan, because the aura from it reached enough distance to be sensed on Beerus' planet. That doesn't debunk the fact that the IT can reach Afterlife from earth but can't reach a finite distance like Beerus' planet from planet earth. IT only worked because of Gohan's aura, not Goku's range.

Also that Kaioshin point isnt true at all the kais are linked to a certain g.o.d Shin dying would kill Beerus but not Champa because only that specific Shin and Beerus are linked together so that doesnt prove anything either

Sorry, but that has nothing to do with the CRT. I never said that a singular Kaioshin like Shin is linked to multiple GoD's; what I said is that Zamasu could kill all of the Kaioshins despite making a time travel that wasn't executed in the Kaioshin Realm, meaning that said time travel can copy all the structure of the Macrocosm and in turn proves that all of it share the same temporal axis. If the Kaioshin Realm is a different spacetime like people here are claiming, it wouldn't be copied when Zamasu did the time travel, as it would only affect the time from the Living World, for example.

The Trunks statement literally is pretty much the same whichever version you use

No, it's not. Read the OP:

Essentially, neither of them is saying that each action creates branching timelines or anything like that, but rather that each action in the past can create different futures/timelines. That's the very reason why there's only 6 Time Rings in Super; the sixth one was created because Beerus killed Zamasu in the past and that lead to a different timeline where Zamasu no longer existed. If any action creates branching timelines, there wouldn't be only 6 Time Rings.

Moving:

and the 6 time rings are just in that specific box and time travel being forbidden doesn’t mean that there can’t be a crap ton of timelines even In like XV2 they have to stop the time breakers who make distorted timelines and try to reduce the amount of distorted timelines

You are literally using Xenoverse's plot to support your argument, which is not canon. Canon DB has only six timelines, and the idea of the boxes having more of them was already contested in detail by the OP (me).

I also wanna point out that U11 isn’t the only universe with time rings even U7 has been shown to have time rings as Shin has his own set of time rings which is probably from a countless amount of time boxes and why would a time box not have time rings? Theres many things supporting this fact and not any supporting that only that single time box exists which U11 uses

I'm fully aware that there are time rings in other universes, but the total amount of them is only 6. And it doesn't matter if the rings exist in other universes as said universes share the same temporal axis. There's no proof of the other boxes having time rings and OP already demonstrates that.

Next:​

​

So basically you're saying that Buu creates black holes? If you're saying that, I disagree.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that even a black hole, which is a Tier 4 (3D) event, can warp the fabric of spacetime and define boundaries in it due to its mass, meaning that going by physics alone, any standard mention of "dimensional wall/barrier/thing" is not enough to prove different continuums, given that even 3D events can do that.

? That's not a very convincing argument, they are in two different dimensions after all so I don't see the point of this.

The point is the full context on why they are in different times in the first place.

yes

That's no proof dude. The Kanzenshuu, unlike the Daizenshuu and Chozenshu, is a fan-made site, not an guide or anything like that. Even there it doesn't say the universe is "sci-fi" regardless.

In fact, I can also use that same page to support my argument about the 12 Universes being affected by a single time travel in only one of them:

• Parallel Timelines: Alternate versions of the twelve universes created through time travel. Future Trunks inhabits a devastated Earth in a parallel timeline, but this is part of an alternate version of all twelve universes, and is not to be confused with how Universe 6 and 7 each contain their own version of Earth.

Of course, I'm not doing that. The source material is enough.

Besides, the scan about the universe being sci-fi doesn't support it being Low 2-C; Timeline (Low 2-C) = Time (Fourth Dimension) > Space > Universe (3-A). The Universe is not Low 2-C, the Spacetime Continuum that encompassess it is.

Next:​

Throwing in theory's isn't going to get you far here, you would have to prove that is how it actually works in dragon ball and prove that it discredits different spacetimes which were accepted many times over. We know the fabric of spacetime is literally just dimensional walls that separate all time and space of each dimension in the macrocosm, not some theory of relativity shit, it plays no factor here.

Actual LMAO! The Theory of Relativity applies to any standard fictional piece of fiction as it's the most accurate model we have of our reality. It's not some "shit" like your ignorance says. In fact, do you realize that the Macrocosm is only argued to be 2-C because of relativity in the first place? If we ignore the latter, the Macrocosm would be quite simply a fodder 3-A structure since there's no spacetime measure to get it higher, like Minkowski Spacetime which is based on Einstein's theory.

Again, you're just relying on theories without proving that is what's actually going on here, read the tiering system for more information on spacetime and when it is actually being affected

What about YOU read the Tiering System? The latter directly links an explanation about Einstein's Spacetime which you're saying it's invalid, lol:

Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale.

Here's the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

Quoting:

Until the 20th century, it was assumed that the three-dimensional geometry of the universe (its spatial expression in terms of coordinates, distances, and directions) was independent of one-dimensional time. The physicist Albert Einstein helped develop the idea of spacetime as part of his theory of relativity. Prior to his pioneering work, scientists had two separate theories to explain physical phenomena: Isaac Newton's laws of physics described the motion of massive objects, while James Clerk Maxwell's electromagnetic models explained the properties of light. However, in 1905, Einstein based a work on special relativity on two postulates:

• The laws of physics are invariant (i.e., identical) in all inertial systems (i.e., non-accelerating frames of reference)
• The speed of light in vacuum is the same for all inertial observers, regardless of the motion of the light source.

Get lost with that.

buuhan's vice shout wasn't breaking down some 3 dimensional spatial barrier, it was literally affecting all of space and time in the macrocosm which was already accepted in ultima's crt, and it's not a singular spacetime, thats like saying you cant have multiple spacetimes because they are all under the same timeline, or that each spacetime isnt actually separated by spacetime because its under a bigger one, it doesn't work like that, we have proof of the macrocosms holding their own spacetimes, because it was literally stated for the dimensions to be separated by space and time, and the existence of spatialtemporal barriers that can be broken. It happened in the buu saga, and the broly arc, with numerous statements from GT. All the spacetimes are literally just under a bigger spacetime (the timeline) its the same concept for ROSAT, it being contained within a bigger spacetime does not disprove 2-C.

Already contested all of that in OP. No proof of Buuhan "affecting all of space and time", he was just breaking the dimensional walls that marks a boundary in the upper realms, which is why the alternate dimensions would crash onto the Living World. The rest you mentioned is irrelevant, as I never claimed that a timeline can't encompass more than one spacetime cotinuum; you pretty much didn't understand the argument despite being very clear cut.

On this wiki, spacetimes are determined by having a different time axis, and being separated by a physical 3d volume, and its already accepted that the ROSAT does reside in the macrocosm as a subspace with the suguroku space as well, it seems you are lacking some knowledge on the tiering system, which makes your argument not make any sense.

You are the only one who's lacking knowledge on the Tiering System, by literally saying something so stupid like "Theory of Relativity doesn't apply here" despite the very Tiering System applying it. And it only counts as Low 2-C if the spacetime is on a universal scale, something that both RoSaT and the Sugoroku Space doesn't have. Funny how you blatantly ignored that part and think I wasn't going to notice:

Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale.

Moving:

Earth-sized spacetime continuums are a thing, it is just a pocket dimension, a spacetime being less than universal in size does not disprove being a spacetime, it just won't qualify as low 2-C. And this just means that you can have different spacetimes in another, which is part of the reason why the macrocosm is 2-C.

--

Why are you using the dragon ball wiki? Its fan made and only tells us the definition based on their perspective, we know that I.T or Kai kai can teleport between dimensions, and goku fell mid teleportation, which is when he fell into it, there is not wormhole mentioned at all, and your logic is flawed here, because "slipping between dimensions" in and of itself proves its not apart of any of the realms in the macrocosm and exist as its own spacetime continuum between dimensions.

Already repplied those above. Next:

Um no, it is concrete evidence that its only accessible by dying, or teleportation there I.E (dimensional travel) which teleportation techniques have been shown to do.

Correction: an 3D, finite-ranged teleportation technique.

This is your headcanon and misinterpretation of the statement entirely, they are on a separate space completely, theres no arguing semantics in this, the afterlife and living realm are spatially disconnected from each other, hence the different "space" part.

What are you talking about? They are separated by "space and time" meaning goku and gohan are on completely different time axis and physical spaces entirely. ^ months in the afterlife is still 6 months on earth, just because time flows at the same rate, doesn't mean they are on the same time axis entirely.

This sentence is just littered with head canon and more misinterpretation to the statement.

Not even worth addressing that. Not only a repetition, but it's basically summarize in you calling my argument a headcanon, while not giving any substantial proof on that.

What do you mean it has no reason? Its purpose is to literally tell us they are on different dimensions entirely, it is very specific that the narrator is literally talking about separated by time and space, as in different dimensions, goku is literally on another plane of reality, you are just saying stuff to suit YOUR narrative and how you choose to see it except for accepting it for what it really is, especially when we have multiple statements of separation of space and time. The narrator is obviously making it clear that they are in two very different places of reality entirely and they have to both endure harsh trials without each other, you saying it has no reason to is just your narrative. Also why would space and time be referred to separately? When the narrator could have just said something else, like how the are just in a different place? The show went out of its way to be super specific and tell us the afterlife and world of the living are separated by time and space, literally. These aren't convincing arguments/

Do you realize that the very fact that the narrator talking about that in the context of both being separated to endure their trials (which are time-based things, the time Goku spent in the Afterlife and the time Gohan spent training) already demonstrates that there's no reason for him to bring a concept of Physics like spacetime? Literally, the entire point is summarized in OP and I even said that people can refer to the next section if they don't get convinced. Here is where you are the one twisting the meaning of the scans in order to suit your narrative:

This doesn't mean anything, two 4d spaces can still be on top of each other, what does this prove?

They can't, lol, at least not in 3D space which is what the universe is. The Afterlife is separated from the Living World by a wall and their boundary it's poorly defined. That's not 4D gap of distance.

Your arguments fall apart when you realize that being above, below, or beside something doesn't prove different spacetimes.

Then you debunked yourself because I was just using that to argue that they aren't different spacetimes. Lmfao

And this has been proven wrong already since we know theres the existence of spatialtemporal barriers that separate the realms, so this argument is invalid.

Basically: "the guide saying the universe is divided, separated and having its limits marked is invalid because I said so."

In all honesty, you're straight up making your own s--- with that. Having a dimensional barrier doesn't mean a separate spacetime continuum and also doesn't mean that something can't be divided by 3D measures, as even events with finite amount of energy like wormholes and black holes can do that.

What are you talking about? He did sense gohan's ki, not only that but the show, the dub of all things contradicted you, goku said it was to faint to sense, and once he powered up, the ki signature got stronger so he could teleport. The distance between realms is unquantifiable which is why we have stomp matches in tier 2 btw. And this proves nothing for distance at all, he has sensed ki from the afterlife and from beerus planet, so no this proves nothing and you contradicted yourself lmao.

Already rebutted that with the other user in this same comment.

And shin not being able to travel through spacetime without the time ring is flat out wrong. He needs the time ring to travel to different timelines and time periods, he can travel through spacetime just fine, because he was able to travel from the afterlife to the living world.

Denying the antecedent.

This proves nothing that the macrocosms share the same temporal axis, them sharing the same timeline does not equal being the same spacetime, as i already discussed that you can have a spacetime inside of a bigger spacetime.

Then why time-traveling in the Living World also creates a copy of the entire Macrocosm, if the Living World is supposedly its own space-time continuum in contrast to the Afterlife? Answer that, I'm dying to know.

What? Universe 7 is the macrocosm, it is everything encompassed within that spacetime continuum, it would not be tier 3 because it is already proven that the entirety of spacetime already exist beyond all the matter than holds it.

I only see statements and 0 proofs. Macrocosm = all the matter encompassed by the 4D continuum.

See luffys thread on why DB follows many worlds interpretation, there are the gray timelines which are the timelines that have already existed, and then the timelines in the box that are created everytime somebody time travels, that is why parallel worlds are created.

You mean the same dude who used a fan-made scan coming from a fan-made blog to prove that DB is 2-B/2-A? Lol

Still not even 10 timelines in the verse. DB being a "quantum multiverse" was destroyed in the OP.

Next:​

This is where I deal the death blow:

NO, you do not need "space-time continuum" stated specifically to qualify for Tier 2. Blatant mentions of "separate space and time" or similar, or mentions of "separate pasts, presents and futures" along side proof of spatial separation where physical travel is more or less impossible is more than enough to qualify for Tier 2 as per our standards.

This is the one single reason where I have to disagree with your entire CRT.

I never claimed that "space-time continuum" is the only way to qualify for Tier 2. I don't even know what exactly you're addressing here. However, saying that this single reason is enough for you to disagree with the entire CRT makes me think if you even checked the inconsistencies section, which I can tell you haven't.

End~​

 

[Nostredam]

Also, why are some DB supporters acting like childs thinking that they already "refuted" the entire thread when the latter just got created?

More importantly, why comments like this were put here?

Jesus, this was an absolute slaughter . Anyway, count me as disagree for Guac and the others reasons.

What is the need on mentioning Jesus in a thread about the power of nonexistent drawings and act like someone got "slaughtered" here? I really expected this wiki to be more serious, but it seems that people can go too personal over fictional characters to the point of making ad hominens and throwing religion outta nowhere (even if it's used as an expression, it's still disrespectful).

Anyway, I don't have all the time to be online contesting every single user. I have some necessities, like the need of sleep. Don't y'all expect this thread to be "debunked" just because I'm late on repplying to 5 users or more at the same time. I'm willing to debate politely if the people on this thread does the same, just that. Peace.

 

[Harith0cell]

disagree via guacamolefcher reason.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Okay, we're done with this point now, right?

Yeah, we agree it's a non-point

Unless given enough evidence, a contradiction with conventional logic is an anti-feat.
2+2 won't be 5 in fiction unless stated so, because 2+2 is conventionally 4.

No, because in this case it's actually 2+3 = 5, and you're saying that it has to be equal to 2, because most of the time when you see additions it's 2+ 2 and 2 + 2 = 4, therefore, you're saying it 2 + 3 = 4 here

Circular logic.
"SDB don't debunk seperate dimension U6 and U7 because it can travel through separate dimensions like U6 and U7"

The SDB are meant to discredit the idea of U6 and U7 being separate dimensions.

we previously agreed on the movement thing, or at least I thought. I think I already adressed this point.

We only see physical movement.

We already went to penalties on this, I think we can say agree to disagree, though I think abundantly, I argued for it better.

The wall separates the afterlife and the universe, not two universes.

both are hermetically sealed, so there is literally a barrier separating them and the two universes too

 

[KLOL506]

Also, why are some DB supporters acting like childs thinking that they already "refuted" the entire thread when the latter just got created?

DB Supporters doing it doesn't mean you get to play the same card, don't do it again.

 

[Planck69]

Also, why are some DB supporters acting like childs thinking that they already "refuted" the entire thread when the latter just got created?

More importantly, why comments like this were put here?

What is the need on mentioning Jesus in a thread about the power of nonexistent drawings and act like someone got "slaughtered" here? I really expected this wiki to be more serious, but it seems that people can go too personal over fictional characters to the point of making ad hominens and throwing religion outta nowhere (even if it's used as an expression, it's still disrespectful).

Anyway, I don't have all the time to be online contesting every single user. I have some necessities, like the need of sleep. Don't y'all expect this thread to be "debunked" just because I'm late on repplying to 5 users or more at the same time. I'm willing to debate politely if the people on this thread does the same, just that. Peace.

This isn't an ad hominem. Nor is using Jesus in an expression lol. Is the comment itself out of place? Kinda. But thinking this is some outright malice is very thin-skinned.

 

[Planck69]

Anyway, I'll call some more staff over here.

@Maverick_Zero_X @KingTempest @Elizhaa @Celestial_Pegasus @Lonkitt @LephyrTheRevanchist

Any input?

 

[RoyGundam]

What is the need on mentioning Jesus in a thread about the power of nonexistent drawings and act like someone got "slaughtered" here?

It's just a common expression to show exasperation

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

More like what are you on, because being called a "separate dimension" is by no means proof of a different space-time continuum, just different space. This is standardly applied to any pocket space that doesn't satisfy the conditions of the Tiering System in the Low 2-C section:

What? it's literally supporting evidence, adding to the fact that they're separated by spacetime

Following your logic, any pocket dimension in fiction would be automatically Low 2-C in size if it's stated that said dimension is "separated" from the universe (which just includes its 3D space, not even the four dimensional continuum in it).

I never said this, and non-sequitor. They'd be their own dimensions, but they wouldn't be counted as universal+ unless they have 3-A contents

Your text comprehension is something else ... the "separated by spacetime" part is not even on this section, as it only appears in the Afterlife quote. All showed here, in this section, is literally boundaries in the same space-time continuum, which by itself doesn't support anything regarding 2-C ratings, as I've explained in the first parts of the OP which you appearently ignored. There's not "separate spacetime continuum", only separated regions of the same continuum.

Also, where is the proof of it being "inaccessible" (in a mathematical sense, like a higher-dimensional space) by normal 3D movement?

KLOL already adressed this argument. The proof is literally in the series and the daizenshuu also.

It has to do with everything, as even things like black holes (3D events) can distort the fabric of spacetime due to its mass and being a boundary to it, which precisely discards mentions like "dimensional walls" to prove full 4D independent spacetime continuums. Again, that's already in the OP, you conveniently just answered what suited better for your "reasoning".

You'd be inherently conceding the realms are separated by dimensional walls, ie separate dimensions!

And who says I have to reply to what you want in the first place? Lol dude. This section refers to the fact that people (not specifically you) use the "dimensional walls" quote to prove that the realms are separated by spacetime continuums, which is not. The quote of "separated by spacetime", again, is not on this section. Don't fool yourself with that Straw Man and actually READ the OP.

I did so brah. Also it seemed a bit odd that you were online and reacting, yet not even arguing for your position

Thanks for confirming that you didn't actually read the thread; Quoting myself:


You're pretty much here just to state what you like it to be instead of reading the proposals and arguments from the thread. Either you are intellectually dishonest or simply too self-absorbed to actually care from people's opinion that differs from yours.

Actually, I did literally refute it with Jisho.

The wall is not 3D despite literally separating a 3D construct like the Living World (a.k.a Universe with planets, stars, etc)? I see. I guess the wall is 4D because that's what your mind give you to interpret ...

Nope, it's actually what takes into account the statements of realms being separate dimensions and separated by spacetime!!!

Eh dude ... you are literally talking about an fourth SPATIAL dimension ... the entire topic here is the given Spacetime Continuum explained in Einstein's Theory of Relativity, where the fourth dimension is time, and not a spatial measure like the other three dimensions of space.

that's ok to have between 2 spacetime continuums

And how exactly that disproves the Wikitionary and the already explained context about the scene? Again, you conveniently reply what you want.

Nice, wikipedia is your rebuttal

Do you realize how bad your argument is? It's not like I'm saying that some fictions can't have multiple STC in the same larger structure (that's why the Macrocosm is argued to be 2-C after all), but the entire point is that time travels can create a full copy of the Macrocosm despite them being realized in any area of it. Zamasu/Trunks/etc by making time travels in the Living World also affects the temporal axis of regions like the Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm, which is why Zamasu could kill the 12 Gods of Destruction in the first place. If the Macrocosm had separate spacetime continuums, then said time travels could only, for example, make a copy of the Living World, not the other structures.

Also, what kind of example is that? The Hypertime from DC Comics can fit in having multiple STC in said context because the timelines from it diverge from the existing ones, creating new realities and sometimes overlapping with others before diverging again. Literally, your example is simply Wrong with an Capital W.

Again, you haven't explained why this hyperspecific DB only rule can't imply the creation of a 2-C timeline

There is no "special movement" dude. The way Whis and other angels travel from point A to point B is by physical and standard travel measured by also standard formulas like V = D / T. Whis literally states that he need 26 minutes to travel from Beerus' planet to Kaio's planet, despite Beerus' planet being on the Living World as showed before, and despite Kaio's planet being on the Afterlife.

Ok, travel in a 4th axis consists in special movement, as he's not just doing it in a velocity vector with 3 coordinates, it's 4!

I also never claimed that you can't have an earth-sized spacetime, I said that you can't have an earth-sized spacetime continuum.

It's literally just a dimension that's earth sized in 3d contents. You literally can have an earth sized spacetime (3d contents), hell, you could even have a grape sized one, but destroying it wouldn't be a universal+ feat because of wiki rules

Indeed, it's unquantifiable by using 3D metric. Meanwhile, the showings of the Instant Transmission ability only reaching finite distance while still being able to get to the Afterlife from earth pretty much sums it up that the distance between them is not even infinite in 3D measures, much less 4D ones.

WHAT??? Distance is a linear measure, there is no such thing as 3d distance or 4d distance

What about YOU read the Tiering System? The latter directly links an explanation about Einstein's Spacetime which you're saying it's invalid, lol:

This whole discussion is basically you inputting your headcanon as to how gravity and spacetime bending somehow means that separate dimensions can be affected in this context

In all honesty, you're straight up making your own s--- with that. Having a dimensional barrier doesn't mean a separate spacetime continuum and also doesn't mean that something can't be divided by 3D measures, as even events with finite amount of energy like wormholes and black holes can do that.

It literally does when the dimensional barrier is also spacetime!!!

I never claimed that "space-time continuum" is the only way to qualify for Tier 2. I don't even know what exactly you're addressing here. However, saying that this single reason is enough for you to disagree with the entire CRT makes me think if you even checked the inconsistencies section, which I can tell you haven't.

Disrespectful, in my opinion. What he's saying is that your CRT is basically saying that you need hyper-specific powerscaling and science lingo in a meticulous way to qualify for tier 2,

that's what he was saying.

 

[Lonkitt]

I disagree

 

[Phsccarvalho]

You mean the same dude who used a fan-made scan coming from a fan-made blog to prove that DB is 2-B/2-A? Lol

Still not even 10 timelines in the verse. DB being a "quantum multiverse" was destroyed in the OP.

Wouldn't it be better to bring this to another CRT? This is a bit disjointed on Macrocosm's part and in long CRTs people usually just disagree or accept everything, so they can end up not focusing on everything. So this point might end up being overlooked (especially not counting the OP votes on things)

Anyway, I won't stay here because I woke up late and I'm too lazy to read everything.

 

[Hasty12345]

does the 48 hour thing apply to every CRT or just accepted ones?

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Wouldn't it be better to bring this to another CRT? This is a bit disjointed on Macrocosm's part and in long CRTs people usually just disagree or accept everything, so they can end up not focusing on everything. So this point might end up being overlooked (especially not counting the OP votes on things)

Anyway, I won't stay here because I woke up late and I'm too lazy to read everything.

Agree with you on this, it's really 2 separate CRTs, that should've been done at different times. OP sliced the pizza too big

does the 48 hour thing apply to every CRT or just accepted ones?

What is the 48 hour thing?

 

[Hasty12345]

Every

I'll set a timer and remind you as soon as this crt can be closed for being rejected

 

[Padaruyos]

Disagree FRA

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Disagree FRA.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Alright, I've let the OP respond to some counter arguments, as well as some other discussions happen. I'm not convinced by the OP or any of Topaz's counter arguments thus far.

Mark me down for disagree FRA.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

It's better to have a civil debate on both sides. This changes nothing on your lives. Please don't insult each other over drawings, stress makes life shorter.

 

[KLOL506]

Every

No, just the ones that have been accepted. A proposal was made to do the same for CRTs that got rejected, but that ironically got rejected too.

So no, overwhelming rejection results in instant or near-instant thread closure.

 

[Padaruyos]

So, most people including staff disagreed with this CRT, what do we do now?

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Is there any counter arguments towards the swirling light’s dimension thread which was recently accepted and further solidified 2-C DB?

I’m leaning towards disagreeing for now

Apparently not

 

[Planck69]

I mean, it's been rejected so whether or not we wait the 48 hours, it doesn't change much.

I do think that we should let it stay open for a bit so that any more staff or members can vote.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

They are. If they travel physically between universes, they being separate spacetimes falls flat.

If you want to claim they have any sort of hax when just spreading through universes, you need evidence.

We already adressed these points previously, I refuted them substantially.

 

[KLOL506]

So, most people including staff disagreed with this CRT, what do we do now?

You can either wait for a few more staff to hit the nail in the proverbial coffin, or you can just close the thread at this instant.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

We already adressed these points previously, I refuted them substantially.

I disagree with the state of your refutation, I don't see any reason as to why U6 or U7 would be separate in a temporal sense. But I have not convinced the debaters here, so I will humbly concede, and accept defeat.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

The Universe 7 does not refer to the Living World. I literally showed a scan where it can be see clearly that the 12 Universes have their own Macrocosm plus Kaioshin Realm.

That scan doesn't say what you think it does. You're misconstruing vaguely placed labelling to give an interpretation that flagrantly contradicts other given information.

At any rate, we know the "Universe" part refers to the bottom part, as in, the Living World, as said map is a copy paste of the one drawn by Toriyama for the Daizenshuu, which has actual arrows to show which is which and isn't reliant on vague labelling.

この中が宇宙 "this is the universe"

Whatever headcanon there is in those two threads, they won't change the aforementioned fact.

"Whatever headcanon" you mean actual deliberated, accepted direct evidence? Nah, you best actually refute it, because as it stands it renders that entire part of the OP about RoSaT not being part of the Macrocosm moot.

I never claimed they were accepted to be Low 2-C, that's why I typed this:



I also never claimed that you can't have an earth-sized spacetime, I said that you can't have an earth-sized spacetime continuum.

What...? An Earth sized spacetime IS an Earth sized continuum, it's the same thing on here. I really recommend you do some research on the Wiki's standards before saying something like Earth sized space-time continuums can't be a thing here.

You are right. The DB wiki was used simply as elaboration on how the SS works; albeit it doesn't change the premisse of the argument.



It's not "self contradictory". It is a region of the universe precisely because it is a place between dimensions (space and time) of said universe. Really, the very link explains that:

Yeah, with information unverifiable in any semblance of source material. Not valid whatsoever.

What? That makes zero sense. The Universe IS one of the dimensions themselves in question. Something between dimensions by definition is separated from the things it's between, it's not a region of the universe from that alone because then it'd be in said dimension. The Chozenshu also states this, which you would've known if you took the time to read the threads I linked.

どの世界にも属さない
〈亜空間〉
That which doesn't belong to the world
〈Subspace〉

この他、【図1】の世界のどこにも属さない「亜空間」が存在している。
Also, there are subspaces that don't belong anywhere in the world depicted in [Fig.1].

Figure 1 (図1) refers to the standard diagram of the Macrocosm that was depicted on the page previous to it.

そこでは「時間」や「空間」といった概念がなく、どのエリアからも切り離された次元の間に位置している。
There isn't a concept of Time or Space there, they are located between dimensions and detached from any area.

Just in any case 「時間」や「空間」is literally "time and space"
"概念がなく" is literally "no concept, lacks concept, without concept"
「精神と時の部屋」や「スゴロク空間」などが確認されている。
The "Room of Spirit and Time" and "Sugoroku Space" have been confirmed.

Basically, between the dimensions of the Dragon Ball world (As the entirety of the Macrocosm) exist subspaces that aren't a part of the diagram, they not only lack concepts of space and time, but are also detached from any area. Of them, the existence of the "Room of Spirit and Time" and "Sugoroku Space" have been confirmed (I think other places have also been confirmed as Subspace either in other guides or the series itself, but I don't remember for sure, could be wrong as well)

The OP already asserts that the idea of existing out of something or between something is not remotely close to prove a different four dimensional continuum, so I dunno why you act like this is some special proof.



Quoting myself again:



Just read the OP. Moving:

I've read it. It's a non argument here:
-There's actually other individual evidence for them being space-times.
-The mention of wormholes in the first place is literally a completely baseless claim sourced from a non canon fanmade wiki making a... baseless claim.

This is actually the only good argument so far. I can agree that space and time can be synonymous for "spacetime", but I also explained why there's a context behind the scene that just can't be ignored so easily when arguing about the Afterlife being another spacetime continuum. Hence, it can also stick with both terms separately due to that reasoning. Of course, if you actually refute the inconsistencies, your argument will be much more credible.

Nope, it actually can be completely ignored because said "context" is an interpretation founded on saying "space and time" could've been said separately in that scene, which I debunked to be the case. I'm not saying space and time can be synonymous with space-time, I'm saying it literally is in this particular case, because the phrase itself used is literally, space-time.
Again:

空間 "Space"
時間 "Time"
時空 "Space-Time"

comound noun - Google Search

spacetime - Google Search

https://www.google.com/search?q=時空
Look into it.

It is a direct proof that the Macrocosm's areas are separated physically from each other. That's literally stated in the first scan of this section and complemented with others. Also, I never said (again) that it's not a different dimension, I said it's not a spacetime continuum. It's not figurative either, don't know where you get that from.

And? That doesn't prove or disprove anything in regards to them being spacetimes or not, different spacetimes are indeed physically separated too.

Also, you literally debunk the very point you're trying to argue yourself about only physical separation with the bolded part. To quote myself on this matter:

This is one thing I will never get about these DB universe CRTs. You have people clearly complacent to or even outright acknowledging the fact that these places are separate spaces regardless of space-time or not, while simultaneously trying to hold arguments about physical travel and whatnot, being literally self contradictory. Physical travel isn't possible between separate spaces.

It's not metaphorical or "visual", it's literally a direct statement asserting the limits of the universe, with said wall being one of them. It's not needed to be shown visually when descriptions about the place cover it; that doesn't debunk nothing at all.



Quoting myself yet again:



The Macrocosm having marked limits and a poorly defined boundary between its regions seems like the distance of two 4D structures for you?

No, because in the actual show itself where we get real visuals of the entire universe, we see that no such wall exists, meaning it's either just the metaphorical part of the representative map, or it's not some conventional physical wall like you're trying to argue. Earth is literally at the edge of the universe yet it's nowhere in sight. What gives? Either way, it doesn't help your case at all.

Marked limits and defined boundaries are by definition abstract, conceptual things. They aren't literally physical cosmological aspects of the Macrocosm and even if they were, that doesn't remotely debunk them being 2-C structures.

Indeed, it's unquantifiable by using 3D metric. Meanwhile, the showings of the Instant Transmission ability only reaching finite distance while still being able to get to the Afterlife from earth pretty much sums it up that the distance between them is not even infinite in 3D measures, much less 4D ones.

As several users above have already debunked and explained this point in detail, I don't think I need to say anything further.

He literally needs it to pass through timelines individually, it's on the very scan. Also, the Macrocosm share the same temporal axis, meaning that the Time Rings are "higher structures" because they encompassess said singular time axis that covers all given realms of the Macrocosm. Again, it's on the OP.



Because the 12 Universes also share the same spacetime continuums. It's literally why Zamasu could kill the 12 GoD's in the same timeline. The individual universes wouldn't be affected by the temporal change of a single one of them if they were independent spacetime continuums.

Yeah, I don't think I have any reason to further refute a literal for 7 years now refuted and rejected same argument about the simultaneous temporal changes somehow making these literal different universes and dimensions all with their own evidence for being space-times all one spacetime now. Lol, honestly.

 

[TiltedFN]

Next:​

Actual LMAO! The Theory of Relativity applies to any standard fictional piece of fiction as it's the most accurate model we have of our reality. It's not some "shit" like your ignorance says. In fact, do you realize that the Macrocosm is only argued to be 2-C because of relativity in the first place? If we ignore the latter, the Macrocosm would be quite simply a fodder 3-A structure since there's no spacetime measure to get it higher, like Minkowski Spacetime which is based on Einstein's theory.

I never said that theory of relativity doesn't apply doesn't apply at all, I'm saying that what you brought up "Essentially, the idea of General Relativity refers that the "fabric" of the space-time continuum can curve upon itself due to the phenomenon of gravity. The more mass a object has, the deeper the curve. This explains why black holes can create distortions in the fabric of space-time, because their mass is high enough to do it, despite obviously not being Low 2-C phenomenons or whatsoever" literally NOTHING! That's why i said bringing up these theory's does nothing for your argument because we already know the existence of spatialtemporal barriers. You're implying these separate spacetimes are just a different area of one spacetime which is wrong, these are completely separate realities, your "evidence" has nothing to do with this at all. These boundaries are LITERALLY spacetime itself, and these dimensions are separated by them, this doesn't help you.

Already contested all of that in OP. No proof of Buuhan "affecting all of space and time", he was just breaking the dimensional walls that marks a boundary in the upper realms, which is why the alternate dimensions would crash onto the Living World. The rest you mentioned is irrelevant, as I never claimed that a timeline can't encompass more than one spacetime cotinuum; you pretty much didn't understand the argument despite being very clear cut.

These boundaries are literally spacetime, again, go look at ultima's crt and he will explain that all spacetime between the realms were going to get completely destroyed, and the two realms would smash into each other.

You are the only one who's lacking knowledge on the Tiering System, by literally saying something so stupid like "Theory of Relativity doesn't apply here" despite the very Tiering System applying it. And it only counts as Low 2-C if the spacetime is on a universal scale, something that both RoSaT and the Sugoroku Space doesn't have. Funny how you blatantly ignored that part and think I wasn't going to notice:



Moving:

Already addressed this, and i never claimed the rosat and sugoroku space or universal in size, i didn't ignore it because it makes no difference, they are located between spacetimes, between the dimensions of the macrocosm, so what point are you trying to make here? Funny how you haven't debunked them being between spacetimes lmao.

Correction: an 3D, finite-ranged teleportation technique.

What do you mean 3d? I.T is counted as dimensional travel, and who says its finite? It could be infinite for all we know, stop assuming shit.

Not even worth addressing that. Not only a repetition, but it's basically summarize in you calling my argument a headcanon, while not giving any substantial proof on that.

No I think you should address how you are just arguing semantics again, how your argument is completely baseless and makes absolutely no sense within the context of the show.

Do you realize that the very fact that the narrator talking about that in the context of both being separated to endure their trials (which are time-based things, the time Goku spent in the Afterlife and the time Gohan spent training) already demonstrates that there's no reason for him to bring a concept of Physics like spacetime? Literally, the entire point is summarized in OP and I even said that people can refer to the next section if they don't get convinced. Here is where you are the one twisting the meaning of the scans in order to suit your narrative:

This is you denying it again lol, "separated by time and space" clearly refers to a literal sense, taking into account they are on two different planes of existence and we have had multiple statements of the afterlife and living realm being two different spacetimes.

They can't, lol, at least not in 3D space which is what the universe is. The Afterlife is separated from the Living World by a wall and their boundary it's poorly defined. That's not 4D gap of distance.

What? Afterlife is separated by a spatialtemporal barrier, not some physical 3d boundary like you are suggesting, and why can't you travel in different directions to get to a different spacetime when traveling though time and space? Says who? You? With no evidence that it can't even tho there are examples that it can be. Like supreme kai traveling in a specific direction when he was taking goku to the kaioshin realm.

Then you debunked yourself because I was just using that to argue that they aren't different spacetimes. Lmfao

I mean't doesn't prove they aren't different spacetimes.

Basically: "the guide saying the universe is divided, separated and having its limits marked is invalid because I said so."

In all honesty, you're straight up making your own s--- with that. Having a dimensional barrier doesn't mean a separate spacetime continuum and also doesn't mean that something can't be divided by 3D measures, as even events with finite amount of energy like wormholes and black holes can do that.

"its limits marked" what limits? The universe being divided into different spacetimes actually just proves my argument even more, you have no proof that the dimensions are divided by a 3d measure, its just pure speculation, ignoring information, your own head canon, blatant misinterpretation to fit your narrative.

Already rebutted that with the other user in this same comment.

And it got refuted

Denying the antecedent.

nice rebuttal

Then why time-traveling in the Living World also creates a copy of the entire Macrocosm, if the Living World is supposedly its own space-time continuum in contrast to the Afterlife? Answer that, I'm dying to know.

And why does that matter? Time traveling affects the entire timeline, which then creates another timeline which have the 12 universe, this proves nothing to suggest that they aren't different spacetimes.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I was told to close this thread

 

[Lonkitt]

No, just the ones that have been accepted. A proposal was made to do the same for CRTs that got rejected, but that ironically got rejected too.

So no, overwhelming rejection results in instant or near-instant thread closure.

Sorry about that. I misread the question at the time. Yes, you’re right. It’s not every thread and overwhelming disagreement leads to a quick shutdown

My apologies

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Apologies for posting on an already closed thread, so may not be seen. But a lot of this is literally nothing but knit picking at its finest. Sense when are we going against things clearly elaborated on our Universe page such as "Separated by time and space combined with being universe sized" while various Japanese words clearly means "Space-Time" and not "Space or Time"? There are also plenty of strawmen regarding the RoSaT/HTC about us assuming it's a universe as opposed to a planet sized pocket reality with it's own flow of time different by 360x.

But long story short, we already have RoSaT part of the entire Macrocosm of Universe 7 just outside the living universe, afterlife, Demon Realm, and Kaioshin Realm. That, and the 12 Universes are clearly different bodies of spaces given they literally tell you cross dimensional travel is something only Angels are naturally capable of and it's due to a special ability. It's not an anti-feat against the Universes being separate but just a feat for them specifically. And contradicted by the fact that Hit cannot travel to other universes without a ship built for dimensional travel. SSJGemini and Guaco are clearly the ones who made the best elaborate arguments here, so props to them.