Introduction
One of the most controversial Fictional Discussion topics in recent years is the question that
Son Goku and other
Dragon Ball characters are either
Universe busters (be it
3-A,
High 3-A or
Low 2-C) or
Multiverse busters (be it
2-C, in this case). There are several arguments for each side, and the most prominent when talking about
Low Multiversal levels of power is the idea of the
Macrocosm (a.k.a the
Universe 7 and others) being a small multiverse (i.e small set of space-time continuums). That leads to major arguments involving that all Universal feats in Toei/Super affecting the entire structure of the Universe should be considered
2-C feats, as we can see below:
In this Content Revision Thread, however, I will explain my point of view on why the above reasoning is
wrong, countering most of the arguments used by people and explaining the
inconsistencies presented in the series about the idea of the Macrocosm being a
2-C structure. I'll use as a reference the
blog highlighted above in bold and underline, and also other arguments that I've encountered that supposedly support this idea. Also, in the last section of the aforementioned blog, there's a
note explaining that the full cosmology of Dragon Ball is
2-B, which I also disagree with and which I'll also explain why I consider it totally wrong. Without further ado, let's begin.
Dimensional/Space-Time Walls/Barriers
The first argument is based on the idea that the realms contained within the Macrocosm are separated by
dimensional walls, something that can also be expressed in the fact that they are separated by
space-time (dimensional) barriers. In equivalence,
separated by space-time. This argument is mostly used explaining the mechanic of Super Buu/Buuhan's feat and it's also used to proportionally scale the realms of the Macrocosm as having their individual space-time continuums.
What is wrong here is that being separated by dimensional walls is
nowhere near close to prove that something automatically has a different space-time
continuum. Most fictional feats that start in the
Low 2-C ratings depends heavily on
correctly interpretating
Einstein's Theory of Relativity, and when we follow its postulates correctly, we find out that a
singular space-time continuum can be separated by "walls" or "barriers" without needing another space-time continuum. Let's see:
Source #1:
Source #2:
Essentially, the idea of General Relativity refers that the "fabric" of the space-time continuum can curve upon itself due to the phenomenon of gravity. The more mass a object has, the deeper the curve. This explains why
black holes can create distortions in the fabric of space-time, because their mass is high enough to do it, despite obviously not being
Low 2-C phenomenons or whatsoever:
Basically, having a space-time (dimensional) boundary/limit/wall/barrier does not prove a different
continuum, but rather a different state in the fabric of space-time due to the massive quantities of mass in certain regions. Indeed,
that's the reason why Buuhan breaking through the dimensional walls would lead alternate dimensions to crash onto the Living World, because the wall is a boundary to their mass and the upper limit to not crash down. In short, any standard mention asserting a boundary in space-time can't be used to prove a
2-C structure, as it still falls under the same singular space-time continuum, which is precisely why 3D phenomenons/objects can distort space-time in the first place.
Room of Spirit and Time & Sugoroku Space
I'm not entirely sure if this wiki uses the
RoSaT as a supporting evidence for
2-C Macrocosm, but regardless, I'll address it as well.
The RoSaT is an another dimension outside the Universe 7 where the flow of time is different. As far as I know, having a
"different flow of time" is not enough in the standards of this wiki to be considered another space-time continuum (which is true), so I'll skip explaining that. The interesting part comes from the
Chozenshu 4, in
The World of Dragon Ball section:
People get from this quote the idea that both RoSaT and Sugoroku Space are different space-time continuums, because they "lack" a "concept" of time and space. People also get from it the idea that while the RoSaT is stated to exist outside the Universe 7, it can be applied to the general structure of the Macrocosm as it exists as a
Subspace within it.
Regardless of it existing within the Macrocosm or not, the first part is wrong.
"Lacking a concept of time and space" is a non-literal speech of the guide to emphasize the fact that the RoSaT lacks a conventional flow of time, as we can see in the exact same section of the Chozenshu 4:
Not only that, but this same guide explains that those Subspaces are
Earth-sized, as we can see in another passage of the RoSaT (which is coherent from the manga were Goku says it is as big as the Earth, anyway):
What is important with that information is that
"earth-sized space-time continuums" are not a thing, or at least, not something that guarantees a
Low 2-C size, basing off the aforementioned Theory of Relativity, which asserts that a 4D Space-Time Continuum is only possible in universal models, something that the
Tiering System perfectly recognizes:
With that said, the RoSaT definitely is irrelevant here, and so is the Sugoroku Space if we folow the above analogy of the subspaces (what the Sugoroku Space is along with the RoSaT) being earth-sized. However, to not make this look unfair, let's address the Sugoroku Space separately:
The Sugoroku Space is argued to be a different space-time continuum by having the description of being
an area between dimensions (space and time). That, as you people can tell, falls under the same argument of the Dimensional/Space-Time Walls/Barriers, literally. Let's take for example a real life idea about the phenomenon called
Wormhole:
Basically, a wormhole acts as a structure that can connect different points/locations/areas
of the same space-time continuum, for example,
other regions of the universe (what the Sugoroku Space is). If we follow the definition we have of the Sugoroku Space,
which is a world where people are sent when they are sucked into a wormhole or otherwise slip between dimensions, it's very clear cut that said space is only a subset region between two points of space and time of the universe, and not a full independent 4D continuum. While in some sci-fi verses an wormhole can connect to parallel universes (or timelines), there's no evidence for that in Dragon Ball and, as such, we have to use the standard definition of a wormhole, which doesn't prove the existence of more than one space-time continuum.
Afterlife
Perhaps the most tricky of all. The Afterlife is argued to be a separate space-time continuum because of the narration at the end of episode 8 from Dragon Ball Z:
Firstly, this will be the only thing that I'll respond in this section. Other mentions like the Afterlife supposedly having no time (more exactly, a different flow of time) or it being impossible to travel to it by normal means are gonna be ignored, since those things are irrelevant to argue about a different space-time continuum (especially because they refer to the astral nature of the place, which is why it's not accessible normally); at best, they can be used as
supporting evidence, and not
concrete evidence. With that said, while the quote seems straightforward, a little deep context is not mentioned:
Essentially, the narrator is not talking about (or insinuating) the Afterlife being a space-time continuum, but rather the
situation both Goku and Gohan are, making a parallel as they are in different places and times. People would say that the narrator is indeed talking about a 4D Space-Time Continuum for the Afterlife, because he mentions
Jikū, which relates to four dimensional continuum. While that is true,
this is not the only definition of Jikū:
There are two definitions: one explaining a 4D continuum (the topic of this thread) and other explaining space and time as
separate elements (i.e not a continuum). The one the narrator uses is obviously both elements separately. Not only the very sub makes it clear that the quote is
"Separated by time and space" instead of
"Separated by spacetime", but there's also the fact that narration has
no reason to talk about a 4D continuum in the scene; in turn, it
has reasons to talk about both elements as a parallel to Goku and Gohan's trials, which I explained above. If people somehow are still not convinced with that, I suggest skipping through the
Inconsistencies section, which is right below.
Inconsistencies
Physical Distance
The realms within the Macrocosm are clearly noted to be separeted
physically (a.k.a by standard three-dimensional space) from each other. I'll put the quotes in order:
The reason why the Other World (Afterlife) is said to be beyond the universe is because its stands
literally above it:
Because both are in the same (3D) space, separated only by a wall with stamps:
Additional evidence, which is even more clear:
So we can have in mind that the realms of the Macrocosm share the same space and the only limits/borders between them are literally spatially based (their position in space, like the Afterlife being above the universe), with some of those limits being even poorly defined. Indeed, nothing even close to be a
uncountable infinity gap, which is the distance between two 4D space-time continuums.
Teleportation Technique
The Instant Transmission technique is based on feeling the ki and moving to where it is. As seen and stated, this ability depends on how far the user can feel:
We know that this technique has been shown several times to travel from earth to the Afterlife. Goku can sense ki from the earth, but even so,
he was unable to sense Gohan's ki while being on Beerus's planet, which
is located within the Mortal Universe. What that means is that the distance between the Afterlife and the Living World is
finite, as Goku is capable of reaching the Afterlife with IT by sensing ki from the earth, but it's unable to do so in Beerus' planet, meaning the distance between the latter and the Afterlife is
greater than the distance between the Afterlife and our planet earth, despite Beerus' planet still being on the Mortal Universe.
Furthermore,
Shin can't travel through space-time without the Time Ring, but he can use the TP technique to go from the Kaioshin Realm to earth:
Time Axis
All the realms within the Macrocosm share the same temporal axis (some of them have variations as we have seen above, but it's fundamentally the same axis of time in the timeline), as proven by Dragon Ball Super:
In this scene, Goku is directly addressing to Zamasu the fact that when the latter traveled through time, he could kill all the Gods of Destruction by killing their Supreme Kais, which means that a time travel, idependently to the plane where you realize it, simultaneasly affect the temporal axis of all the given structures of the Macrocosm, which includes the Kaioshin Realm where the Supreme Kais live.
It's directly showed that the 12 Universes have their own version of the Macrocosm plus the Kaioshin Realm, so Zamasu being able to kill all of them basing off a single time travel means that all given structures in the Macrocosm obey to the same space-time continuum, including the Kaioshin Realm. In equivalence,
one space-time continuum.
Conclusions
The realms are spatially separated by a finite distance within a singular four dimensional continuum that covers the entire Macrocosm. That's it.
Why Not Low 2-C?
With that said, the Macrocosm is not
2-C,
and neither is High 3-A. We have options of it being either
3-A or
Low 2-C. By the title of this CRT, it's very clear in which one I belive.
Why not
Low 2-C then? It's because
Low 2-C only goes to the entirety of the space-time continuum. As seen above, the space-time continuum
encompasses the Macrocosm, not the other way around; hence, it's
Tier 3 only, as any
Tier 2 structure in Dragon Ball would go to the Timelines themselves, or simply the entire scope of the universe regarding its dimensions (three spatial and one temporal). Arguing that the Macrocosm itself is
Low 2-C is flawed because it would be the equivalent of saying something like:
Obviously, that's not how it works. Destroying the Macrocosm is
3-A, while destroying the Macrocosm plus the four dimensional continuum in which it resides is
Low 2-C.
The "2-B" Cosmology
As I said in the beginning, this was a
note in the blog were I mainly contested the arguments for
2-C Macrocosm, so I decided to put it here also. The DB cosmology is argued to be
2-B due to two scans.
Trunks' Statement
The first one is Trunks' statement about
each action creating a new timeline, which people associate with the
many-worlds interpretation. Despite being something clearly contradictory with Dragon Ball Super (we'll see that soon), this is actually a
mistranslation from the
Kanzenban edition of the original Dragon Ball manga. The
VIZ translation states this:
And here's the Japanese one:
Essentially, neither of them is saying that each action creates branching timelines or anything like that, but rather that each action
in the past can create different futures/timelines. That's the very reason why there's only 6 Time Rings in Super;
the sixth one was created because Beerus killed Zamasu in the past and that lead to a different timeline where Zamasu no longer existed. If
any action creates branching timelines, there wouldn't be only 6 Time Rings. Speaking of that ...
Gowasu's Boxes
People would try to cover the above mentioned by saying there's much more than just six time rings,
as they're only a fraction of the total amount of "timelines" in many other boxes. This argument is even worse than the previous one.
For starters, it was
never said that those boxes also have time rings in it. The fact that one box has doesn't necessarily mean that the others have too, especially considering that Gowasu himself states that it was
strictly forbidden to travel to the past, since that would create another timeline:
It would be pretty much nonsensical that timelines were being created constantly if it is forbidden to do so. In fact, Gowasu also
indirectly states that those boxes are not filled with Time Rings:
Basically, Gowasu asserts that the time rings are for the new parallel worlds that emerged from changing the past. In the same scan above, he literally gets surprised by the existence of an
fourth time ring, saying that its number increased since he last cheked. This obviously means that there are not "countless timelines" in those boxes, since the creation of said timelines not only is restricted, but it's also showed to be only a very few of them, and Gowasu, who is responsable to verify said timelines, quite literally gets surprised by the amount of only four of them (because it's forbidden to create new ones). Nothing more to say here.
Conclusions
Dragon Ball only has a
2-C cosmology and its Macrocosms are
3-A, above the baseline though. For now,
nearly all the profiles that have a
2-C key should be changed either with
3-A or
Low 2-C.
www.kanzenshuu.com
