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Hmm
If the future world is infinite, which it is, then it should be capable of holding infinite futures. And not to mention, if her ability itself got buffed and now she can access infinite futures, then shouldn't it just lead to her future world to contain that many amount of realities in real time as well ?
Her entire seeing the future and restricting it is connected to her future world crystal afterall.
In addition to there being no scan saying that crystals/futures "materialize", materialize can also simply mean "appear", so...
Furthermore, even looking at it from the point of view of "becoming real/physical", this still supports CRT's point, futures/possibility undeniably exist, even if in abstract form, which is stated by Nafta several times, if the future already exists (in abstract form), by "materializing", Nafta would be making something "non-physical" become something "physical", since there is no way Nafta is making futures go from "non-existent/non-real" to "existing/real", since the futures themselves already exist.
Personally, I'm seeing those separate possibilities as materialized reality already, rather than them existing in abstractual form.
Two reasons make it very inherent to me.
1. As shown in the scans and elaborated by the OP, Naphta's ability is not "materialization" in the strict sense of the word, but to "restrict" the current timeline to only meet a fixed future, out of the countless others that she restricted it amongst.
2. From the scans itself we can see that the spear unnaturally left Anos' hand and stabbed him. That is to say, even after Naphta's restriction he didn't take any action that would lead to such an outcome in the current timeline, he infact took the opposite of it (which is, he caught the spear).
From these two points we can deduct this much that the future, where Anos missed that spear, wasn't materialized (make it go real from abstract) by Naphta via her restriction process and neither the current Anos took any action for it to lead into such an outcome in a natural process, which in turn necessitates that the current timeline isn't the one which was twisted to reverse itself and then head towards another abstractual future and make it real. So for such unnatural shifting of reality to occur (where the spear slipped out and stabbed him despite him catching it) in such an abrupt sense, an alternate possibility must already exist in realised form where an alternate Anos' actions lead him to miss that spear. Then Naphta perceived that reality and simply picked that future and pasted it into the current timeline via her restriction.
And ofc, then you already have other scans which assert that the power of controlling or seeing future can't occur, if the future itself never existed. And the ones which talk about the possibilities having a "shape" equivalent to the world, suggesting that it's physical.
So ultimately, I think, it validates the alternate possibilities being actualities.
Sigh, here we go again.
I read the OP, and it is just the same thing from the previous threads; nothing really changed. I will make a reply later.
OP made their argument; I will make a reply; knowing how MGK threads go, I will not be replying to the 5+ people who will tag my argument unless the OP still has things to say.
“The Future World Crystal is the countless futures of this world; it is the shape of the world itself. What you are doing is competing to see who gets destroyed first between the world and yourself. The result should be clear as day.”
It says so in the work. You can understand that on this earth there are thousands of cubic meters of sea water, but a water tank with a volume of 100 cubic meters can only hold 100 cubic meters of sea water.
It says so in the work. You can understand that on this earth there are thousands of cubic meters of sea water, but a water tank with a volume of 100 cubic meters can only hold 100 cubic meters of sea water.
Why do I keep encountering people with no reading comprehension?
Literally in the OP Vol. 7 Naphta is the one who sees countless futures, Volume 7 Epilogue and beyond Naphta sees an infinite number of them. Not only is it stated nowhere that the maximum capacity is countless, the only reason countless is mentioned is because that is all she could see.
Until you find where it's said countless is the max capacity, I will no longer give any replies.
Where in volume 7 does it say "infinite future"? Even the epilogue chapter of volume 7 only says "countless future"
“I’ve been watching the entire time, you know,” Diedrich said after some
time had passed. “From the moment you first opened your Divine Eyes, my heart was captured. I’ve seen countless futures since receiving your Eyes, but I’ve been watching you the entire time too. You, the lonely god fighting in search of a future of hope.”
Diedrich stared straight into Naphta’s Eyes. In front of her calm expression, he smiled broadly in embarrassment.
“In short, no matter what I saw, I’ve only ever had eyes for you,” he declared boldly. “My eyes are as blind as ever. Even if the Divine Eyes showed me countless futures of death and despair, I couldn’t see any of it. No matter how impossible that may sound.”
“I’ve been watching the entire time, you know,” Diedrich said after some
time had passed. “From the moment you first opened your Divine Eyes, my heart was captured. I’ve seen countless futures since receiving your Eyes, but I’ve been watching you the entire time too. You, the lonely god fighting in search of a future of hope.”
Diedrich stared straight into Naphta’s Eyes. In front of her calm expression, he smiled broadly in embarrassment.
“In short, no matter what I saw, I’ve only ever had eyes for you,” he declared boldly. “My eyes are as blind as ever. Even if the Divine Eyes showed me countless futures of death and despair, I couldn’t see any of it. No matter how impossible that may sound.”
Let me ask, should the futures here be separate universes like the mwi and catbox theories? Infinite possibilities exist in real life too, but they are shown on one time axis, not many (the reason for requiring separate universes).
I think staffs are still celebrating the Christmas, but we don’t want to keep this thread going until next year, still have 1 more day left staffs we need you guys opinion ASAP
Let me ask, should the futures here be separate universes like the mwi and catbox theories? Infinite possibilities exist in real life too, but they are shown on one time axis, not many (the reason for requiring separate universes).
「Who’s to say?」
「In an unseen future lies hope」
「You may not be wrong. But it’s only unseen for now. There is Agaha’s prophecy. The First Sword Emperor peered into that darkness and learned that the world would perish. He warned that the Selection Judgment must never be brought to an end」
「Did the First Sword Emperor truly witness the end? It’s not as though anyone confirmed it」
「Exactly. But it’s because impossibility is invisible that people see hope, charging forward unaware that despair may lie at the end」
「If the path ahead is shrouded in uncertainty, Diederich, there’s no place for a prophet to step in. Regardless of the countless despairs (数多の絶望) or infinite tragedies (無限の悲劇) that come crashing down, I will smash them all without exception.」
Nothing is set in stone for the future. With the love of Nafta, infinite possibilities spread out ahead, people hold onto hope in their hearts to seize a better future. There is nothing to be afraid of, Dragon Knights.
The countless futures are all used as 数多の未来 and with the 数多 placed next to 無限 which implies that they are equivalent in context, plus with the outstraight "infinite possibilities" i can see the infinite futures.
The OP is saying that those futures are separate spacetimes/timelines /realities not mere possibilities regardless of whether they exist on the same time axis or not i guess
The points in this thread that need to be disproven are;
The futures/possibilities outrightly being equal to the world, called another reality.
The futures are clearly stated to exist along with the intricacies and mechanisms of Naphta's powers not being reliant on and differentiated from manifestation of probabilities.
This need to make every little thing seem like a big deal by going through mental gymnastics is tiring. A simple ability that allows you to see all possible futures and pick the one you want is turned into a big deal. There are dozens of fiction stories where a character can see possible futures and pick the one they want; this is not any different.
Honestly, I wanted to give a lengthy reply again, but then, reading the OP again, I realized he was simply insulting any opposition. And I find all he said ironic
Of all the points in the OP, this is the only one that matters, as the rest, while relevant, do not matter much for tiering.
The crystal is what contains these infinite possibilities and can materialize them, but the thing is, the thing in the crystal are just possibilities and not actual worlds, the crystal can cause the possibilities to materialize in the actual world. Are possibilities alternate realities or not?
First on the definition of terms, seeing as the understanding of these words are needed
Future: time regarded as still to come. (a period of time following the moment of speaking or writing)
Possibility: a thing that may happen or be the case. (A likelihood)
Probability: the quality or state of being probable (Probable: likely to happen or be the case.)
Happen: take place; occur
Reality: the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
I think understanding these words is necessary, and this argument will not be needed.
And here is what the author has to say about Nafta Abilities
He recalled what was said on the balcony of the Sword Emperor Palace.
“If the Prophet says the prophecy out loud, that prophecy becomes easier to overturn,” Diedrich said, slowly piecing things together. “If a future looks bad, you just have to act so that it doesn’t become reality...”
Why hadn’t Naphta shown him this future? The answer was easy to imagine.
“If there’s a future you want to happen no matter what,” Diedrich continued, “you can’t say that prophecy out loud. That applies to both you and me...”
If there was a prophecy Naphta didn’t want overturned under any circumstances, then she couldn’t tell the Prophet about it. It was the same as Diedrich did for the people of Agatha when he refrained from telling them of any bad futures. Diedrich’s trust in Naphta was why he hadn’t noticed this blind spot until now.
“Like the Demon King said, this blind spot is what led us here,” Naphta said. “Now, you’ll be able to reach the future that my Divine Eyes couldn’t see.”
Act so it does not become real, means they are not real yet
I, Naphta, swear to you that as long as we remain in the present, the future will resurrect no matter how many times you destroy it. In order to destroy the Future World Crystal, you must destroy all possible futures.” The crystal fragments rapidly increased in number and wrapped around us like a glittering sandstorm. “This is one more possible shape of the world. Sinner, you will now be condemned to exile in a restricted world.
However, using Veneziara on Leviangilma was nothing more than a possibility. The blade had to remain sheathed or its power would erase my past, present, and future self. No matter how powerful it was, a mere possibility couldn’t best the powers of the Goddess of the Future. She could just continue restricting the future to make it one where I didn’t draw the blade.
“Veneziara is a spell that realizes possibilities."
“Realizes possibilities? What are you saying?"
“Don’t you understand? When Levyngilma is in its sheath, there is a possibility for it to be drawn and a possibility for it not to be drawn. Using Veneziara, I made both of those possibilities come to be at once.”
Realizing possibilities means turning them into real.
Ceris had used the possibilities of the Sword of a Thousand Bolts to repel me and seal Leviangilma. But to think of this another way, in contrast to the reality in which I was right beside him, there was a possibility that I had been repelled and moved a short distance away. That possibility normally would have disappeared, but I had used Veneziara on it to turn it into reality.
Again, turn to reality; things that exist do not need to turn into things that exist as they exist already.
My argument still stands.
The spear came to a stop right before my nose. I had grabbed the shaft. “I can restrict the future. You will be unable to grasp the spear.” The moment the Goddess of the Future said that, the crystal spear slipped from my hand. I immediately dived aside, but the Future World Crystal surpassed my speed by a fraction and bore into my stomach. “Restrict, huh? I see. I suppose there could be a one-in-a-billion chance of me failing to grasp the spear. You used the Future World Crystal’s power to restrict the future and make that happen.”
There are a billion possible futures here, and in all of those futures, Anos was hit by the spear in one.
This is similar to this analogy.
when you hold a die and you want to roll it, you can have either of the 6 outcomes as a possibility, those 6 possibilities exists, but then cast the die and only one of those possibility is materialized, now nafta has the power to impose on the possibility she wants and that is the one that becomes real.
Until you cast the die, rolling a 1 or 2 is not actualized, just a possible future, which is what this is exactly.
2. I do not really understand what you mean by it fully, but I should say that Nafta is the god of the order of the future, and the future is filled with numerous possibilities from where she can pick the future she wants. So, is it possible for these futures to exist? yes they can become the next thing that happens, are these futures already physically playing out in a different timeline? Not at all.
These futures are not in her mind; there is an order that allows for numerous possible futures, and she gets to pick any she wants.
Unless she picks one, none of the future is actualized.
TLDR: Naphta has the ability to see all possible futures, and the Kandakuizorte that she holds is what contains these possibilities and allows her to restrict the future to any possibility she wants and make it a reality.
That is literally all her ability is all about: probabilities are simply probabilities, futures are futures and reality is reality. There is no need to take things out of context to make an upgrade of this type. Claiming all those worlds existed at once when the author called them possibilities/futures, etc., is just dishonest.
I will say again, no one is claiming these possibilities do not exist, they exist just as possibilities and are brought to reality by the power of Naphta. Simple.
Also, please, call the throwing around insults and passive-aggressive remarks are not necessary.
Not an argument just something I find fun. This was passed after the downgrade and which you guys decided to nuke mgk then.
— Secondly, there is the case of timelines that are connected at certain points in time. Unlike the scenario in which travel between universes is always possible through three-dimensional movement, connection between these timelines only occurs at specific times. At these moments, the timelines may be considered as the same universe. For instance, if a timeline splits into two, the timelines were once the same universe before the split occurred. Conversely, if two timelines merge into one, they become the same universe only after they have been fused. In such cases, destruction of a timeline is only accounted for if it was not connected to any other timeline for an infinite amount of time. Conversely, if numerous timelines were never separate for an infinite amount of time, they would be considered as one timeline for the purpose of tiering their destruction or creation.
This need to make every little thing seem like a big deal by going through mental gymnastics is tiring. A simple ability that allows you to see all possible futures and pick the one you want is turned into a big deal. There are dozens of fiction stories where a character can see possible futures and pick the one they want; this is not any different.
Honestly, I wanted to give a lengthy reply again, but then, reading the OP again, I realized he was simply insulting any opposition. And I find all he said ironic
Of all the points in the OP, this is the only one that matters, as the rest, while relevant, do not matter much for tiering.
First on the definition of terms, seeing as the understanding of these words are needed
Future: time regarded as still to come. (a period of time following the moment of speaking or writing)
Possibility: a thing that may happen or be the case. (A likelihood)
Probability: the quality or state of being probable (Probable: likely to happen or be the case.)
Happen: take place; occur
Reality: the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
I think understanding these words is necessary, and this argument will not be needed.
And here is what the author has to say about Nafta Abilities
Act so it does not become real, means they are not real yet
Possible futures mean probable things.
Realizing possibilities means turning them into real.
Again, turn to reality; things that exist do not need to turn into things that exist as they exist already.
My argument still stands.
There are a billion possible futures here, and in all of those futures, Anos was hit by the spear in one.
This is similar to this analogy.
Until you cast the die, rolling a 1 or 2 is not actualized, just a possible future, which is what this is exactly.
2. I do not really understand what you mean by it fully, but I should say that Nafta is the god of the order of the future, and the future is filled with numerous possibilities from where she can pick the future she wants. So, is it possible for these futures to exist? yes they can become the next thing that happens, are these futures already physically playing out in a different timeline? Not at all.
These futures are not in her mind; there is an order that allows for numerous possible futures, and she gets to pick any she wants.
Unless she picks one, none of the future is actualized.
TLDR: Naphta has the ability to see all possible futures, and the Kandakuizorte that she holds is what contains these possibilities and allows her to restrict the future to any possibility she wants and make it a reality.
That is literally all her ability is all about: probabilities are simply probabilities, futures are futures and reality is reality. There is no need to take things out of context to make an upgrade of this type. Claiming all those worlds existed at once when the author called them possibilities/futures, etc., is just dishonest.
I will say again, no one is claiming these possibilities do not exist, they exist just as possibilities and are brought to reality by the power of Naphta. Simple.
Also, please, call the throwing around insults and passive-aggressive remarks are not necessary.
Not an argument just something I find fun. This was passed after the downgrade and which you guys decided to nuke mgk then.
Meaning even if the crystal is an actual real world, it will simply be low 2-C.
The world is in possibilities, everything that happen is the result from possibilities (rolls the dice). That mean you just can choose the possibilities which already set, you cant create your own fate
Kandaquizorte encompasses all future/possibilities and is the future it self. The possibilities states to be equal to shape of the world, the shape of another world, meaning future is already being realised
future is not only future that not exist physically, but already materialized and already constructed by order. The number of future it self is infinite
Act so they don't become real doesn't mean they are not real, it means they are yet to happen. Yet to happen however doesn't mean they are not real, it just means the time hasn't come yet/they are yet to reach that point/such an event is yet to take place. You are simply taking words at face value and using that to your whims
They are possible futures in the sense that the world can move in any of those directions. They are events that haven't taken place in the present but will eventually happen and thus remain possible futures until they actually happen i.e. when time reaches that point.
Once again taking words at face value and is not an indication of them not being real.
Your argument still stands? You just copied probability manifestation which Anos, Celis and Graham use and has no bearing on Naphta's order and expect it to prove your point?
Probability manifestation was already shown to be different from what Naphta does. Those three realize or manifests possibilities, Naphta limits the future. Both of these were directly compared in the story and Naphta's is superior bacause compared to veneziara that manifests probability, Naphta limits the future to an event that has taken place.
Anos can manifest the possibility of him unsheathing Levingilma but it is useless when Naphta has limited the world to one where the sword isn't drawn
Except that isn't what Naphta said. That was a speculation on Anos part and he had never met Naphta before. Naphta never said there were a billion possible futures, Anos said out of every billion times, he might fail to catch the spear once then speculated Naphta used her powers to make that happen except what she actually did was overwrite the future and replace it with one where he did fail to catch it.
In the OP which you've ignored, it's blatantly pointed out how her powers cannot influence the past nor present. Anos catching the spear already places makes such a probability in the past or present still she limited the future to one where it wasn't caught.
Until you cast the die, rolling a 1 or 2 is not actualized, just a possible future, which is what this is exactly.
2. I do not really understand what you mean by it fully, but I should say that Nafta is the god of the order of the future, and the future is filled with numerous possibilities from where she can pick the future she wants. So, is it possible for these futures to exist? yes they can become the next thing that happens, are these futures already physically playing out in a different timeline? Not at all.
These futures are not in her mind; there is an order that allows for numerous possible futures, and she gets to pick any she wants.
Unless she picks one, none of the future is actualized.
TLDR: Naphta has the ability to see all possible futures, and the Kandakuizorte that she holds is what contains these possibilities and allows her to restrict the future to any possibility she wants and make it a reality.
Naphta sees the present from the past and she sees multiple presents. Kandaquizorte contains all the other realities and she uses it to overwrite the worlds future. The world not being destroyed by Egil Grone Angdroa was as a result of directing that destruction to those other realities.
That is literally all her ability is all about: probabilities are simply probabilities, futures are futures and reality is reality. There is no need to take things out of context to make an upgrade of this type. Claiming all those worlds existed at once when the author called them possibilities/futures, etc., is just dishonest.
Calling them possibilities is in line with calling something the future as the future is something that hasn't happened from the perspective of the past and present yet if one were to travel forward in time, the future is there. They only haven't happened in the reality the story is being narrated from. The author in a QnA also says parrallel worlds exist.
I will say again, no one is claiming these possibilities do not exist, they exist just as possibilities and are brought to reality by the power of Naphta. Simple.
No insults were thrown here. I literally edited this in my sandbox over 10x to make sure there were no hostile remarks. 58 messages on the thread and no one has complained about such a thing. If you find anything said in it offensive, that's a you problem especially since it's a counter to your thread. Keep such accusatory remarks to yourself or better yet, there's a thread where you can report such things. Let those in-charge weigh in on it. If anyone is trying to incite hate where it is not iit's you
The world is in possibilities, everything that happen is the result from possibilities (rolls the dice). That mean you just can choose the possibilities which already set, you cant create your own fate
Kandaquizorte encompasses all future/possibilities and is the future it self. The possibilities states to be equal to shape of the world, the shape of another world, meaning future is already being realised
future is not only future that not exist physically, but already materialized and already constructed by order. The number of future it self is infinite
I, Naphta, swear to you that as long as we remain in the present, the future will resurrect no matter how many times you destroy it. In order to destroy the Future World Crystal, you must destroy all possible futures.” The crystal fragments rapidly increased in number and wrapped around us like a glittering sandstorm. “This is one more possible shape of the world. Sinner, you will now be condemned to exile in a restricted world.
The whole context behind naftas abilities proves that the futures are not physical realities in any way,
the futures/possibilities exists ,yes they do
Are constructed according to order ,yes they are
They are a possible shape of the world ,yes they are
They are physical realities ,no the aren't
They are merely pontentialities,had had one in a billion chances of not catching that spear and that was what the world was restricted to ,all the billions of chances exist and are constructed according to order but only one became actuality,
It doesn't even make any sense to say nafta manifest a literal reality while all she does is restrict the world to a possibility/pontetiality
They have the same shape as the world (a continuum space-time infinite in size);
They are futures separate from each other;
They have a physical form (crystals) constructed by order, just as the universe (space-time) has an abstract physical form.
I'm pretty sure this is enough to at least prove that futures are universal in size. Especially when he follow two of guidelines to prove that a realm is the size of a universe.
If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes.
If they're stated to mirror "The Universe" or "Our Universe" or "The Real World", they would refer to being universes.
@Dog3352 futures exist as possibilities not as realities
King of the demons, I grant you this prophecy,” the Goddess of the
Future said as she turned the crystal in her hands towards me. “When these
eyes open, I, Naphta, will be able to see every future. Every possible
future, every miracle yet to pass, exists in the hands of the Goddess of the
Future. The victorious future you seek will spill from your hands, and you
will be deprived of any possibility to resist it.” She spoke in a matter-offact tone. “People can die of aggravated colds. They can trip over their
own feet and lose their lives. Everyone in this world lives by the rolls of
the gods’ dice. Facing me means facing the worst possible day for you
The spear came to a stop right before my nose. I had grabbed the shaft.
“I can restrict the future. You will be unable to grasp the spear.”
The moment the Goddess of the Future said that, the crystal spear
slipped from my hand. I immediately dived aside, but the Future World
Crystal surpassed my speed by a fraction and bore into my stomach.
“Restrict, huh? I see. I suppose there could be a one-in-a-billion chance
of me failing to grasp the spear. You used the Future World Crystal’s
power to restrict the future and make that happe
Well, there’s this thing called the trial of the Goddess of the Future,
you see,” Diedrich said, holding his chin in his hand. “Suppose there’s a
fight you have to win no matter what, but when you look into the future,
you find there’s no possible way to win it. What do you do?” He answered
his own question calmly. “It isn’t the job of the Prophet to turn tail and
To begin with, I'm not arguing that they are realities, I'm saying that they have a universal size, which is something that already has enough proof, regardless of whether they are possibilities or not, they still have physical form and have the same shape as world.
Futures exist;
They are built by order;
They have the same shape as the world (a space-time continuum infinite in size);
They are futures separate from each other;
They have a physical form (crystals) constructed by order, just as the universe (space-time) has an abstract physical form.
Honestly, I don't care if people accept them as other realities or not, they still meet the requirements to be a universal-sized structure.
And honestly, everything you said/showed has already been said and commented on in the CRT, nothing you said really refutes what's in the OP.
Anyway, we are simply done here, if you keep commenting the same things, it will just be derailment.
If there is anything I have learnt arguing is sometimes pointless this is one of the case. Just wait for staffs. @The_golden_and_silver_house94 has said all I would have said again.
