DMC PoC continued

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Yea except there is also another quote from the game that says the savior is holding many melted down bodies and souls of demons within him

Good for you, Sanctus clearly says their bodies will be melted and become the core of the savior, nothing about his soul.

I will explain the whole high godly state and why it's necessary later but for now you know that poc explicitly says that they regenerate back as long as "they persist" meaning what we hearing is most likely nero will(which isn't something new given characters like zamasu are capable of existing as pure will only)

Then it isn't a high godly state and this won't work. There has to be literally nothing of them to come back.

and melted = gone in this case because his body,soul,mind,concept and memories are gone no longer existing

Nice, now you know why Dante SPECIFICALLY NEEDED YAMATO TO SAVE HIM, this isn't something he can do.

did but nothing in the page mentions that willpower also is necessarily to be gone to get high godly regeneration

It says you must be gone, including the most fundamental part of your existence and wouldn't you know it? DMC clearly states names are that and everything, literally everything for a demon is in the soul. To believe they have some sort of will independent of the soul (that literally contains everything) is baseless, not only that but the quote literally says "All but the weakest demons do not care what they lose, their bodies, their names, their souls or everything"

This "persist" thing can't be anything and certainly it isn't some kind of willpower.

Yea but the problem is that the yamato went through it only it didn't got destroyed like the rest and it's clearly fine as you can see

1) the gem is destroyed, you can literally see that shit 2) Yamato doesn't need to destroy the gem to do the separation stuff anyways 3)Watch the whole video, all the gems are destroyed in a similar fashion. For reference destroyed isn't the same as erased, I can destroy a wall and it could only have a big ass hole in the middle, I can destroy a phone and it can be pretty much in one piece, etc, etc.

Then he could have y'know used yamato way earlier instead of trying to destroy every single gem on the savior especially since his main goal is to save nero

Its not my fault they decided to create a story and keep the people entertained with some stakes and fights instead of cutting the PIS away and ending everything immediately. This is like asking why didn't Dante kill Arius in 2 or why he went like a dumbass wasting time in fortuna instead of fixing everything

can "game is rushed" works as a counter argument?

Considering the novel only says one, 1, uno, gems was destroyed and the game actually shows all of them... no, not even in a million years

The page for high godly says that to you need to regenerate from being destroyed physically,mentally,spiritually and one more fundamental aspect doesn't matter if it is conceptually,narratively,informationlly(is that even a word?) or any kinda of fundamental aspect of your being and also the whole high godly state thing is the only thing that separates it being a regeneration feat or a resurrection feat since there are characters who have a absurd levels of resurrection like coming back from being from existence and such

See above. The difference between resurrection and regeneration is that the first one brings you back to life, it doesn't necessarily brings a body or a concept without further context, second one is meant to reconstruct your body and whatever pieces are missing up to whatever fundamental shit was gone

Well yea because in dmc4 nero needs the yamato to activate his devil trigger which have much regeneration to his base with all the physiology shenanigans

Two things here, Nero doesn't have a devil trigger in 4, the spectral shit is more like a stand forced out by Yamato than a DT and Nero gained all the basic physiology shit when he was "awakened" by Yamato, he doesn't need it anymore to keep that stuff.

Wut? you can't say that he will be confident that he killed him if he didn't see him dying because the scene you brought is makes it vague and if that actually dante perspective then it should strike him more of confusion more than confidence

That's pure logic. If I shoot someone in the head/torso/vital area I will be 100% confident I killed them and yet there can be a ton of factors that can happen for that someone to not die, same thing here. The key is that Dante mortally wounds Mundus and sees him trying to flee only to start getting vaped and bam he is back in the demon world. From his PoV (which is our PoV as players too, remember that little detail) Mundus is dead.

Yea except I'm not comparing in there potency I'm just saying that he if a weaker version was to shows it like instinct reaction

Thats literally what you were implying with the whole "a younger version has the same ability so he should do it" Is the same thing as saying that Vol 1 Dante can soul hax Mundus because DMC2 Dante has that power.

Again if this is actually exactly how dante saw it then he should be confused about it like if the scene went all flashy and white how that's make him sure he killed him it makes no sense like he didn't die infort of him

Already explained it above, not only that but Mundus is presumably inside the pocket dimension at that point too so the likely hood of Dante sensing him is nonexistent.

That's because one is completely dead while the other is trying to regenerate back and dante was more talking about the island collapse and was more on the assumption that the explosion of the island was going to kill them

There you go, he was trying to regenerate and accomplished nothing (considering he is exactly the same as the last time we see him). Dante was literally talking about Mundus, this is literally shown when the fight ends and Dante is tired af and Mundus mocking him for it.

Its literally him knowing he will die at Mundus hands but with the satisfaction that Mundus will perish there due to the last fight.

My next post is the last, hopefully this can finally end.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

This is my last comment, this thread is going nowhere and you people keep posting despite being wrong instead of letting Staff evaluate this shit.

I made a proposal in the sever based on the regeneration discussion here, basically normal demons get the regeneration proposed by the OP just fine, the twins and any hybrid between human and demon will only get High-Godly overtime in base (up to 10 years based on Nelo) and/or in Devil Trigger State as that's their true form and the true expression of their demonic power, the rest of the regen for them stays the same.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dmc-poc-continued.127739/post-4311768 in this post is the proposal for the soul hax and its scaling to tier 1

The rest of the hax seems uncontested and videos/scans have been linked accordingly in other comments iirc.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Antvasima alright I think we’re done debating. You can call the rest of the staff members to decide.

 

[Antvasima]

We need single post explanations of the arguments that they need to evaluate first.

 

[Theglassman12]

The arguments for adding to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence Souls (9-D): Pinnacle of Combat has a lore info in a loading screen regarding how souls function and how they're supposed to be a 9-D form from a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path.

High Godly regen for strong demons: Another PoC lore info regarding demons being able to restore their souls, names, and bodies as long as they persist. And some other random feats like Nelo Angelo regenerating from his entire body vanishing with an assumption that Dante couldn't see his soul therefore he destroyed it but vergil came back after 10 years, and Mundus being destroyed but coming back in DMC1.

Arguments against being added to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence for Souls (9-D): Souls being portrayed like this is severely inconsistent for the series given in the mainline games souls are shown to be the devil arms Dante uses throughout the games. And this is a thing for literally every single devil arm but they're never shown or portrayed to be from a higher dimensional source as normal people can easily interact with them given Dante sells his weapons to random people and these people who lack natural magic in the series can just interact with these supposed higher dimensional souls.

High Godly regen for strong demons: It's not consistent with the mainline games given you have numerous showings of demons dying when their soul is destroyed, such as Nightmare in DMC 1, Griffon in DMC 1, Nightmare Griffon and Shadow in DMC 5, Dante despite being a strong demon is getting his soul sucked away by the Neo Generator in DMC 3 to which the game shows it being a threat while Dante is in Devil Trigger state, yet he still dies despite being able to channel his DT all because his soul is removed from his body.

Here's the rest of the abilities being argued in the previous thread which was closed thanks to the derailment.

Also refer to Tony's comment above since he also has his own arguments on souls and HDE stuff. Other than that this should be the entire argument in the CRT for both sides.

 

[Dienomite22]

Arguments against being added to the page:

High Godly regen for strong demons: It's not consistent with the mainline games given you have numerous showings of demons dying when their soul is destroyed, such as Nightmare in DMC 1, Griffon in DMC 1, Nightmare Griffon and Shadow in DMC 5, Dante despite being a strong demon is getting his soul sucked away by the Neo Generator in DMC 3 to which the game shows it being a threat while Dante is in Devil Trigger state, yet he still dies despite being able to channel his DT all because his soul is removed from his body.

This debate is ultimately whatever to me but I think every instance you mentioned in the post are unique and special cases involving artificial demons, hybrids, and one unknown with Griffon's death in DMC1 being done by Mundus who we can argue back and forth bypassed the High Godly or just destroyed Griffon's soul. But the main thing I would like to bring up is an alternative look at the meaning behind the description for high-godly demon souls.

"Creatures that have existed since before the creation of the human world, spawned by the primordial chaos that preceded reality and formed by the demon world. All but the weakest demons do not care what they lose, their bodies, their names, their souls or everything, as long as they persist they can regenerate and continue fighting without rest."

The statement for High Godly mentions that as long as the demon persists they will regenerate and continue to fight without rest. The description is also saying "If a demon does not persist, then they will not regenerate.". Persistence is the key part of their regeneration according to the description and if they no longer are willing or have the ability to persist then they will die. I would like to entertain the idea that High Godly would be given based on a demon's persistence.

If we follow this logic then it can very well explain demons seemingly dying from just having their soul or body destroyed.

DMC1 Nightmare: Nightmare is an artificial demon/literal weapon whose soul is also artificially created and not one that existed before the human world or was spawned by primordial chaos that preceded reality and thus is not a demon that is described in the description above. But let's say Nightmare does fall into that description, Nightmare is a demon with statements that repeatedly state it has little to no thought process and only follows its orders given to it by Mundus which is: Destruction. A mindless weapon whose sole purpose is to destroy is likely not that persistent and only meant to follow orders.

DMC1 Griffon: Going by my proposal you can likely assume what I'm going to say here. Griffon simply lacked persistence after being killed by someone he was extremely loyal to for thousands of years. (Naturally, you should be able to see one of the major weaknesses of this persistence based High Godly)

DMC5 Nightmare, Griffon, Shadow: Another special case here. The DMC5 version of these characters are not demons that would fit into the High Godly description above and are only alive because they are spawned for Vergil's unconscious thoughts and work off V's magic who is no longer around at the time of their deaths so they used the remaining magic in V's cane that is seen floating in the background of the boss fight. But let's once again entertain the idea that they fit the description and forget that they are gone once V's magic is sapped, they knew they couldn't defeat Dante and they wanted to die as Griffon describes his, Shadow and Nightmare's death as "the end of Vergil's nightmares". Nightmare, Shadow, and Griffon were not persistent at all.

Neo-Generator: I personally chalk this up to hybrids being a special case and not falling in line with the description above for High Godly demons or only getting possibly. Though I would like the mention the Japanese text for the Neo-Generator originally states that it absorbs the soul and turns it into power/energy, not just removes it or absorbs it. I can post the scans if that ever is needed.

Tl;dr just voicing my concerns with some of Glass's examples and proposing the idea that Demon's High Godly is based on persistence which can explain seemingly contradictory anti-feats in the series.

I'm not here to argue back and forth because I want this thread and the other thread to be done but I just couldn't help but bring up these points.

 

[Antvasima]

The arguments for adding to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence Souls (9-D): Pinnacle of Combat has a lore info in a loading screen regarding how souls function and how they're supposed to be a 9-D form from a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path.

High Godly regen for strong demons: Another PoC lore info regarding demons being able to restore their souls, names, and bodies as long as they persist. And some other random feats like Nelo Angelo regenerating from his entire body vanishing with an assumption that Dante couldn't see his soul therefore he destroyed it but vergil came back after 10 years, and Mundus being destroyed but coming back in DMC1.

Arguments against being added to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence for Souls (9-D): Souls being portrayed like this is severely inconsistent for the series given in the mainline games souls are shown to be the devil arms Dante uses throughout the games. And this is a thing for literally every single devil arm but they're never shown or portrayed to be from a higher dimensional source as normal people can easily interact with them given Dante sells his weapons to random people and these people who lack natural magic in the series can just interact with these supposed higher dimensional souls.

High Godly regen for strong demons: It's not consistent with the mainline games given you have numerous showings of demons dying when their soul is destroyed, such as Nightmare in DMC 1, Griffon in DMC 1, Nightmare Griffon and Shadow in DMC 5, Dante despite being a strong demon is getting his soul sucked away by the Neo Generator in DMC 3 to which the game shows it being a threat while Dante is in Devil Trigger state, yet he still dies despite being able to channel his DT all because his soul is removed from his body.

Here's the rest of the abilities being argued in the previous thread which was closed thanks to the derailment.

Also refer to Tony's comment above since he also has his own arguments on souls and HDE stuff. Other than that this should be the entire argument in the CRT for both sides.

I think that the arguments against make better sense.

@JustSomeWeirdo @Crabwhale @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Everything12

What do you think about this?

 

[Moritzva]

First off, I am very happy Glassman was able to sum up the arguments as he did, it makes it a lot easier for me to grasp a debate I know nothing about.

9-D seems… eh, I think the counterarguments are legitimate cause for concern and I don’t really want to approve it. However, in regards to regeneration, Dienomite brought up a really solid counterpoint for someone like me who doesn’t know the verse mechanics, so I’d rather hold onto my opinion until that debate shapes up properly.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Sevil Natas]

sorry for taking too long to respond, I've been sick these very few days so I didn't really have the energy to care about the wiki but now that i feel better I'm going to address as much as I can :

first this :

Souls being portrayed like this is severely inconsistent for the series given in the mainline games souls are shown to be the devil arms Dante uses throughout the games. And this is a thing for literally every single devil arm but they're never shown or portrayed to be from a higher dimensional source as normal people can easily interact with them given Dante sells his weapons to random people and these people who lack natural magic in the series can just interact with these supposed higher dimensional souls.

Devil arms are very different from souls. devil arms are only made from souls they are not souls themselves, in fact they are completely physical objects, the soul is the shining ball of light that appears before the weapon takes shape from it, so using devil arms as an argument to dismiss something that is in the soul is very flawed since the 2 are drastically different from what is shown in the statements, souls are nonphysical objects that contains the concept and information of the being within them whilst devil arms are physical weapons that take shape from a demon's soul when it's defeated or willingly gave itself to someone.

in regards to regeneration, i agree with tony's proposal of high-godly for twins in their DT states

as to what Dienomite suggested i could also get behind will based regeneration as well, but keep in mind to persist can also mean to exist in some cases, and also there are weapons in the series capable of nullifying regeneration & they're quite common, so that is also an answer to the supposedly contradictory feats as I've stated above multiple times above w. also the stuff about griffon, shadow and nightmares soul being destroyed that was done by ppl with regen negation in their profiles, I'm not sure why they're even being used

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Sorry I was away for few days....I have exams going currently.
But I have 2 days of downtime before next exam days on account of new year holiday and study time, so today I'll make my arguements at night in couple of hrs after this post.

sorry for taking too long to respond, I've been sick these very few days so I didn't really have the energy to care about the wiki

Nice to hear you are well now.

 

[Antvasima]

The arguments for adding to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence Souls (9-D): Pinnacle of Combat has a lore info in a loading screen regarding how souls function and how they're supposed to be a 9-D form from a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path.

High Godly regen for strong demons: Another PoC lore info regarding demons being able to restore their souls, names, and bodies as long as they persist. And some other random feats like Nelo Angelo regenerating from his entire body vanishing with an assumption that Dante couldn't see his soul therefore he destroyed it but vergil came back after 10 years, and Mundus being destroyed but coming back in DMC1.

Arguments against being added to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence for Souls (9-D): Souls being portrayed like this is severely inconsistent for the series given in the mainline games souls are shown to be the devil arms Dante uses throughout the games. And this is a thing for literally every single devil arm but they're never shown or portrayed to be from a higher dimensional source as normal people can easily interact with them given Dante sells his weapons to random people and these people who lack natural magic in the series can just interact with these supposed higher dimensional souls.

High Godly regen for strong demons: It's not consistent with the mainline games given you have numerous showings of demons dying when their soul is destroyed, such as Nightmare in DMC 1, Griffon in DMC 1, Nightmare Griffon and Shadow in DMC 5, Dante despite being a strong demon is getting his soul sucked away by the Neo Generator in DMC 3 to which the game shows it being a threat while Dante is in Devil Trigger state, yet he still dies despite being able to channel his DT all because his soul is removed from his body.

Here's the rest of the abilities being argued in the previous thread which was closed thanks to the derailment.

Also refer to Tony's comment above since he also has his own arguments on souls and HDE stuff. Other than that this should be the entire argument in the CRT for both sides.

@ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions

Your help with evaluating this would also be appreciated.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah this all seems very sketchy especially since the source is a mobile game that loosely follows canon. All this is very outlier-y with it being exclusive to PoC and demonstrated literally no where else.

I'm against High-Godly and 9D.

 

[KLOL506]

I'd recommend re-tagging DarkGrath and CrimsonStarFallen once more. LordGriffin1000 is neutral AFAIK.

 

[Antvasima]

The arguments for adding to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence Souls (9-D): Pinnacle of Combat has a lore info in a loading screen regarding how souls function and how they're supposed to be a 9-D form from a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path.

High Godly regen for strong demons: Another PoC lore info regarding demons being able to restore their souls, names, and bodies as long as they persist. And some other random feats like Nelo Angelo regenerating from his entire body vanishing with an assumption that Dante couldn't see his soul therefore he destroyed it but vergil came back after 10 years, and Mundus being destroyed but coming back in DMC1.

Arguments against being added to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence for Souls (9-D): Souls being portrayed like this is severely inconsistent for the series given in the mainline games souls are shown to be the devil arms Dante uses throughout the games. And this is a thing for literally every single devil arm but they're never shown or portrayed to be from a higher dimensional source as normal people can easily interact with them given Dante sells his weapons to random people and these people who lack natural magic in the series can just interact with these supposed higher dimensional souls.

High Godly regen for strong demons: It's not consistent with the mainline games given you have numerous showings of demons dying when their soul is destroyed, such as Nightmare in DMC 1, Griffon in DMC 1, Nightmare Griffon and Shadow in DMC 5, Dante despite being a strong demon is getting his soul sucked away by the Neo Generator in DMC 3 to which the game shows it being a threat while Dante is in Devil Trigger state, yet he still dies despite being able to channel his DT all because his soul is removed from his body.

Here's the rest of the abilities being argued in the previous thread which was closed thanks to the derailment.

Also refer to Tony's comment above since he also has his own arguments on souls and HDE stuff. Other than that this should be the entire argument in the CRT for both sides.

@DarkGrath @CrimsonStarFallen

What do you think about this?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, thank you for helping out Sir Ovens.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I certainly agree that POC gave many statements without the series really backing them up (With some few exceptions of course), but that's the biggest problem when only one part of the series wank the rest to insanely higher levels, it will need more proof, and eventually something will end up as outlier, even if the quote itself is blalant

Regardless, this has been debated for enough time, sometimes both sides just reach a point where they can't get anything from the other, let's just wait for the remaining staff to comment, I can add what needs to be added after everything is over

 

[Antvasima]

What is the staff consensus here so far?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

With latest and updated proposal as mentioned for staff thread:-
Agree:- Elizhaa, DDM, Klol, DarkGrath, Crimson,

Disagree:- Glass, Moritzva?, Ovens

Tell me if I miss someone.

Also my exams are over today so I'll be making my comment tomorrow since its midnight now pls don't conclude before that.

 

[LordGinSama]

Is PoC even canon? I know it's overviewed by Capcom but that doesn't necessarily make it canon. Regardless I don't believe there's really enough consistency in verse that'll support 9-D and High Godly imo.

 

[KLOL506]

Is PoC even canon? I know it's overviewed by Capcom but that doesn't necessarily make it canon.

We already went through this in a CRT. Which you were on and agreed to.

 

[LordGinSama]

We already went through this in a CRT. Which you were on and agreed to.

Will reply to this later, granted I didn't pay attention to the PoC stuff as much as I was on board with the regeneration section.

 

[KLOL506]

Agree:- Elizhaa, DDM, Klol, DarkGrath, Crimson,

Ya forgot Ultima agreeing to 9-D.

 

[Antvasima]

Can each side explain the arguments for and against this upgrade in easy to understand manners please? I can ask more staff members for input afterwards.

Personally, 1-C sounds too high for the DMC cast, unless the higher dimensions are explicitly treated as higher infinities.

 

[KLOL506]

Can each side explain the arguments for and against this upgrade in easy to understand manners please? I can ask more staff members for input afterwards.

Here

Personally, 1-C sounds too high for the DMC cast, unless the higher dimensions are explicitly treated as higher infinities.

Ultima said that the 9-dimensional existence would only be HDE and not AP, thus 1-C isn't happening either, not until and unless we get explicit confirmation of said dimensions being higher infinites. Hence, we're not pursuing any changes in AP at the moment.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the clarifications. I will ask for input then.

 

[Antvasima]

The arguments for adding to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence Souls (9-D): Pinnacle of Combat has a lore info in a loading screen regarding how souls function and how they're supposed to be a 9-D form from a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path.

High Godly regen for strong demons: Another PoC lore info regarding demons being able to restore their souls, names, and bodies as long as they persist. And some other random feats like Nelo Angelo regenerating from his entire body vanishing with an assumption that Dante couldn't see his soul therefore he destroyed it but vergil came back after 10 years, and Mundus being destroyed but coming back in DMC1.

Arguments against being added to the page:

Higher Dimensional Existence for Souls (9-D): Souls being portrayed like this is severely inconsistent for the series given in the mainline games souls are shown to be the devil arms Dante uses throughout the games. And this is a thing for literally every single devil arm but they're never shown or portrayed to be from a higher dimensional source as normal people can easily interact with them given Dante sells his weapons to random people and these people who lack natural magic in the series can just interact with these supposed higher dimensional souls.

High Godly regen for strong demons: It's not consistent with the mainline games given you have numerous showings of demons dying when their soul is destroyed, such as Nightmare in DMC 1, Griffon in DMC 1, Nightmare Griffon and Shadow in DMC 5, Dante despite being a strong demon is getting his soul sucked away by the Neo Generator in DMC 3 to which the game shows it being a threat while Dante is in Devil Trigger state, yet he still dies despite being able to channel his DT all because his soul is removed from his body.

Here's the rest of the abilities being argued in the previous thread which was closed thanks to the derailment.

Also refer to Tony's comment above since he also has his own arguments on souls and HDE stuff. Other than that this should be the entire argument in the CRT for both sides.

@SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Ogbunabali @Abstractions

Would any of you be willing to help with evaluating this please?

 

[Sevil Natas]

for clarifications, the stuff on OP about 9D is HDE only, not Tier 1, some might argue it applies to hax, but what I am proposing on the OP is 9D HDE only, its does not apply to potency

 

[KLOL506]

for clarifications, the stuff on OP about 9D is HDE only, not Tier 1, some might argue it applies to hax, but what I am proposing on the OP is 9D HDE only, its does not apply to potency

This.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that does not seem very controversial then. High-Godly Regeneration needs very good justifications though.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

No one proposed 1-C, only that their souls had 9-D levels of HDE and spatial intangibility which scales to those levels of non-physical interaction and range to some extent.

 

[Theglassman12]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

HDE is rather uncontroversial, but what is the evidence for High-Godly Regeneration?

 

[Theglassman12]

A scan saying demons can regenerate anything and keep fighting, even their soul which is conceptual.

 

[EFÍTÉ]

The scan Glass mentioned above

 

[Lightning_XXI]

HDE is rather uncontroversial, but what is the evidence for High-Godly Regeneration?

One side is still against adding HDE from what I know

I've been reading through the discussion (tiresome, not gonna lie) again, just to be clear, I overall agree with Glass' points on Regeneration, although I'm fine with HDE

 

[LordGinSama]

I also agree with Glass tbh.

 

[Antvasima]

A scan saying demons can regenerate anything and keep fighting, even their soul which is conceptual.

The scan Glass mentioned above

That doesn't seem like anywhere near sufficiently solid evidence for such an extreme rating as High-Godly Regeneration, "just" Mid-Godly in itself.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, can somebody summarise the evidence for HDE as well please?

 

[Theglassman12]

It's already made, just contact staff and ask for their input.