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that still doesn't mean anything, we don't know when or where Vergil came back, since there's a lot of reasons that could explain his absence, him being trapped in the Demon world is one of them for example, so yeah Vergils feat remain unknown timeframe wise unless we get statementsWe literally have DMC 1 and DMC 5 be a 10 year gap, Vergil only shows up in 5 of all times to get his sword back when if we're going by this logic of him coming back before then why didn't he show up in Fortuna to get Yamato back from the Order? You're raising more questions than answers here.
Vergil does scale to it since he did regenerate from the destruction of his soul, Sparda is a full demon so he scales to it, DT is literally them but full on demons so they definitely scale to it there. its not that hard, either neo-generator has regen negation (which is a pretty common thing in the verse) or him dying to it is simply an outlier, probably the former since then we'd end up with no contradictionsYou're ignoring my point, Dante was threatened to die as stated by Jester in canon cutscenes in DMC 3. Merely having his soul ripped out from his body is enough to kill him even when he was in DT. This contradicts any of the Sparda Heritage characters scaling to this level of regen, because if they can truly come back from their souls being destroyed then why the hell is that considered deadly to dante in cutscenes? On top of the mission description backing it up, as well as the entire mission literally being a time limit based on your health and you dying the moment your health is gone?
Did you actually bother to read this comment I made in the last thread? Because I linked this here where you find the Sin Scythe enemy files. Pay attention next time because I hate having to repeat myself.
yeah the escape from death part is more of a gameplay tip explaining how to play against one of the enemies attacks, not a lore statement.Paragraph 7 - They'll stab their prey with their scythes and immobilize them to
steal their souls. Quickly move the Left Analog Stick back and
forth to free yourself from death.
if you actually look at the cutscene. Cerberus was referring to the bright object when he said "take my soul", that's obviously the soul he was referring to, not the physical weapon it later forms. the physical devil arms being the souls themselves doesn't even solve your problem even if we axe the 9D statement entirely. since then regular ppl would still be able to interact with abstract concepts & information, which is a thing a normal human being isn't capable of doingSaid physical objects are stated to be their souls. Cerberus literally says it himself so why are we going to assume otherwise?
In order to get this discussion going again that is.Should I send a notifications to any participants in this thread, and if so, to which ones?
its not that hard, either neo-generator has regen negation (which is a pretty common thing in the verse) or him dying to it is simply an outlier, probably the former since then we'd end up with no contradictions
恶魔猎手
人类自古以来就从事这种职业,危及他们的生命,因为在这个世界上没有任何武器可以伤害恶魔。
人类的聪明才智使猎人创造了伤害和杀死恶魔的最佳和唯一存在的方法,创造了用来自冥界的材料制造的奇怪武器。
以火攻火。
Demon hunters
Humans have been engaged in this profession since ancient times, endangering their lives because there are no weapons in this world that can harm demons.
Human ingenuity has led hunters to create the best and only method that exists to harm and kill demons, creating strange weapons made of materials from the underworld.
Fight fire with fire.
Read carefully, the context in the interview says when human dies in specific on DMC3 (while the ideia came from DMC2), so by all means the people that died in DMC3 turned into SIN demons also, the corruption thing also occours too there's sequence of events happening, either by returning to the demon world and not being able to overcome the demon world/ demonic energy/essence or just by interacting with those demons like i said, there's sequence of events happening; We take look at Msira's profile in dmc2, its basically a avatar of greed, looking at the graphic arts, it also says '' people who have been consumed by evil'', going with DMC 3 we see that Arkham turns into this mass of demonic form based on his heart after not being able to handle sparda's power, to note that he goes from sparda form to this mass of demonic body, which goes along with what its showed in the Deadly fortune novel vol 1 (basically DMC4's novel) where the shape of the demon form is based in the subconscious, the ascension tries to give people demonic energy/essence, which if the person fails at the ceremony, they will go berserk instead of retaining their conscious, which goes along with people turning into demons based on their unconscious desires, so yes people don't need to become Msira or Sin demons by default, its up to the subconscious desire of the individual. I could have answered this with less text, but i decided to give context
The way he's tasked to manage the souls is up to interpretation, could be him taking the souls, him not having to physically interfere and just making sure the souls returns and if needed returns to specific places in the demon world (in the case of Hell sins).
the problem here that it will clearly create a contradiction here because the novels pretty much supports that nero is within the savior because dante said that he is hidden somewhere in the savior because if he totally merged with it then it wouldn't matter in which spot he is held by
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/835961338714128384/914843661471215616/Screenshot_-_Drive.jpg
I will argue that the gems in the savior is what stopping him from regenerating back because when dante destroyed one of them we immediately get to the scene of nero waking up and started to remember himself and other people as which we know the mind and memories are contained within the soul proofing that got melted with his body as well
https://media.discordapp.net/attach...384/914865520417853500/Screenshot_-_Drive.jpg
https://media.discordapp.net/attach...384/914844441821462578/Screenshot_-_Drive.jpg
https://media.discordapp.net/attach...384/914844442094075924/Screenshot_-_Drive.jpg
Nero stated that when he woke up he tried to do something but couldn't because he didn't completely come back because(logically)there is still the other gems in the savior
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/835961338714128384/914844442308005928/Screenshot_-_Drive.jpg
Dante himself stated that he was sensing nero and his feelings inside there as well which is the reason why he start attacking the gem on the savior chest that leads to the core by using rebellion
https://media.discordapp.net/attach...384/914844441553043466/Screenshot_-_Drive.jpg
and mind you this all happened before dante thinking to use yamato to free him so if nero lost his individuality none that would have happened and those statements honestly seems vague and more of a metaphorical especially alot of it comes from sanctus the guy have god complex and believes himself to be destined to rule and says high shit about himself and the savior so which do you pick as a strongor evidence?A flowery language vs an actual scene happening? it's pretty clear how things goes
I don't see how it's vague you even have statements that dante final attack made mundus completely vanish
and it's not flowery at all that dante can completely eradicate someone if he wanted to just like how he did to nelo,argosax and echidna and also "he couldn't have destroyed his soul with it" argument wouldn't make sense at all because dante who can see souls believed that he actually killed mundus
I have one problem with this and it's more out of curiosity but from where did you get that vergil needed 10 years to regenerate because I'm pretty sure we treat that feat as unknown in time he took to come back
He is inside the savior obviously, he was melted inside to become the core, the heart of the weapon. Both game and novel say this, that is the spot dante was trying to find. This doesn't debunk or support anything.
This would be good and all but the new translation goes against what we previously had. Nero never lost his mind inside the savior, he just lost all sense of self and his memories there. To quote the novel:
"I didn’t know why. I couldn’t remember my name, only that I didn’t want to forget it. Who am I? I couldn’t talk or make a sound, or form a coherent thought. All I knew was that I felt like I’d lost something important - someone I cared about? Part of myself? Both?" Deadly Fortune, Vol 2. P. 29-30
Mind you all of this is before Dante goes to fight the savior. This alone debunks our previous notion of Nero fully becoming one with the savior and obviously debunks this miserable High-Godly attempt.
This doesn't help considering that Dante breaks all the gems and Nero only comes back after he uses Yamato so no, the gems don't keep him from regenerating, what keeps him from coming back is him being part of the savior to an unknown degree which is why, once again, Dante needed Yamato to save his ass.
I don't understand what you mean with the little part at the end but as I mentioned this above but yeah, Nero lost his individuality/sense of self but he wasn't fully one with the savior as he could still think, he still existed. This obviously shows there was part of nero still existing which as we know is far from enough to get High-Godly regen.
In the end this basically amounts to nothing, no godly regen nor fully merging with the savior which might end up downgrading Yamato in the process, thank you for that one tho
Mundus:
And yet the cutscene doesn't show much of that besides a flash of light when Mundus was still being destroyed and we are back to the demon world.
So, he only soul haxed Nelo to death he didn't "completely eradicate"him in the literal sense since parts of his armor still existed and made it to fortuna, just his soul.
Argosax was killed by DMC2 Dante, someone who is leagues and magnitudes higher than this version of Dante same with the one that killed Echidna and iirc people attribute that to deconstruction with E&I
And Dante never saw Mundus vanish till the very end, as I said above, we only stay inside the dimension up until half of mundus gets destroyed then a flash of light and bam back to the demon world, from our perspective (which is the same as Dante) we never see him get completely destroyed so saying "he didn't see his soul so he got fully eradicated" is wrong. I acknowledge the guide saying he vanished but that on its own isn't enough and barely got us Low-Godly in the original regen thread, this isn't gonna fly with High-Godly.
Fair enoughBecause he literally shows up after more than 10 years, if he was able to come back earlier I assure you he would have gone for Yamato ASAP... and he didn't
And it will go against the QUOTE from the game that the savior can melt down both the body and the soul which again the soul contains all aspects of their beings he lost his concept(name) and his memories which both held in the soul so I don't see why his mind shouldn't gone through the same process and so it's more of what I like to call "high godly state" it means they are still alive in a conventional sense that all what it implies there.
".....as long as they persist they can regenerate continue fighting without rest"
Demons don't die even aftet losing everything....they still exist in a way and "persist" before regeneration...thats the state of existence Nero is trapped in.
And Nero didn't gain sentience untill Dante+Yamato started fighting Saviour outside. Its the presence of Yamato outside that allows him to "wake up" slightly. Its not untill he is separated later that he regenerates on his own. So before Dante approaches Saviour....Nero is completely gone inside Savior's heart.
Yamato never healed him there....it just awakened his power. We know what that does to Sparda descendants..especially their physiology and regeneration by extension.My problem here couldn't yamato just automatically healed nero from the start like it did with agnus?
The only thing that been discussed right now is high godly regeneration and higher dimensional existence so far we are just waiting for glass response for nowSo what are the conclusions here so far, and what still needs to be discussed and evaluated?
Okay.The only thing that been discussed right now is high godly regeneration and higher dimensional existence so far we are just waiting for glass response for now
Glass agreed with Type4&8 along with Negation.we still havent come to a conclusion about a single thing so here's the votes on the topics under discussion for this thread(regen, type 4 & 8 neg & HDE souls):
Agree : EFITE, deadman, gliver, DarkGrath
Disagree : Glass
the others I'm not sure which side they're on. so I'll leave it at that
oh yeah i forgot about that, my bGlass agreed with Type4&8 along with Negation.
HiGodly he only seems to disagree for Sparda Heritage....or atleast thinks combat inapplicable. Still disgarees with 9D.
Okay. No problem.I have finals this week, I’ll finish this thread when I finish my exams.
pretty sure KLOK said he also agree so he should be counted as wellwe still havent come to a conclusion about a single thing so here's the votes on the topics under discussion for this thread(regen & HDE souls):
Agree : EFITE, deadman, gliver, DarkGrath
Disagree : Glass
the others I'm not sure which side they're on. so I'll leave it at that
".....as long as they persist they can regenerate continue fighting without rest"
Demons don't die even aftet losing everything....they still exist in a way and "persist" before regeneration...thats the state of existence Nero is trapped in.
And Nero didn't gain sentience untill Dante+Yamato started fighting Saviour outside. Its the presence of Yamato outside that allows him to "wake up" slightly. Its not untill he is separated later that he regenerates on his own. So before Dante approaches Saviour....Nero is completely gone inside Savior's heart.
no it's infact you who's basing this off of headcanon, Vergil's feat is unknown, that's what I am saying, we cant assume it was 10 years because that's when he decided to show up in the main story, actually what is said in Nico's reports contradicts thisYes it does mean something, again if Vergil is so willingly able to walk into Nero's house to rip his own son's arm off to get Yamato back to get his powers back, he would've done this a long time ago if he was already back, especially at Fortuna where he would've just barged in to get Yamato from the order like he did to Nero. Unless you have proof Vergil came back way later which isn't proven whatsoever here, this is based off headcanon.
he went to the underworld after he exploded, this is what usually happens when demons die, they get sent to the underworld, not only does this imply his regen time was actually shorter, this explains his absence, he was trapped in the underworldSon of the legendary dark knight and Dante's brother.
Lady says he once lost to Dante and got his ass thrown into the depths of the underworld.
Later, he turned his sword— the Yamato—on himself, using its power to cleave demon from human and so sever everything that was holding back his demonic side.
So V was the humanity he left by the wayside...
Well, they're back together now. Vergil's weakened days are over
his soul was destroyed because 1. dante couldn't see it 2. because he went to the underworld after which is what happens when demons dieVergil's non combat applicable feat of regenerating from his soul being gone, which btw we have no proof his soul was destroyed, we know his body was destroyed but not his soul, especially considering nelo angelo's soul isn't exactly his soul, but Vergil's soul put inside the armor for Mundus to control him in the first place
that just gives it regeneration negation, it being able to kill Dante doesn't mean anti-feat for his regeneration, it means regeneration negation for the neo-generator, All but the weakest demons can regenerate from having their souls destroyed that's what's also stated by reliable sources of information.No what's common in the verse is the fact that they would state weapons being able to kill others. Neo Generator has one thing and one thing only, sucking out your soul. Dante dies when his soul is gone in DT, that's flat out shown and stated in cutscenes by reliable source of information.
yeah this solidifies Dante scaling to it. unless we got reason to assume the neo-generator doesn't have regeneration negation (in this case we have reason to assume the opposite cus it's a magical weapon & that's a common thing with them from the statements above) it's not an anti-feat for Dantes regeneration, it's a feat for the neo-generator which gives it regen negationDevil Trigger Dante
If you're a demon and you see this, you know you've screwed up. This is Dante's "gettin' it done" look.
He may only be half demon, but when that half is the blood of Sparda, that's some high-octane gas you're working with. Most full demons don't stand a chance.
Not only can he move faster and hit harder than anything else in the room, his wounds heal up in a flash. This is the full demon-killin' package
yes they can steal souls, what i disagree with, is that they can kill dante by using that, not only does that break the story narratively (a random fodder demon being able to kill the most powerful devil hunter in the verse) but the statement used to prove that they can.So we're ignoring the whole lore bit of them stealing their souls? Because that's kind of important to my argument against sparda heritage characters having the regen.
is not even talking about Dante, it's a gameplay tip directed at the playerParagraph 7 - They'll stab their prey with their scythes and immobilize them to
steal their souls. Quickly move the Left Analog Stick back and
forth to free yourself from death
i know what he said, the weapon itself is not the soul, it's something made from it, when he said take my soul, Dante took the bright object which is the soul and made a physical weapon from it, so they're not the same and by your logic, we might as well axe everything that makes the soul a soul including its non-corporeality, because "normal people could touch it" , btw 3D beings can interact with higher dimensional objects, they just cannot reach all of it because it's infinitely larger but they can touch it, so even if we go by your ridiculous logic it's still not valid proof to disprove the 9D statementDude, Cerberus literally says take my soul and go forth. Dante takes the devil arms he leaves behind. How is that hard to understand that when he says soul, he means the devil arms? What else did dante take in that cutscene that wasn't the cerberus weapon? So that just means they're not that hard to affect if normal people can touch devil arms, simple as that.
alright I'm back, hopefully no more delays.
@Deadguy He didn't kinda die, he just got his ass kicked. If he died at that very moment against DSS Dante and revived the series would've mentioned that very important information like it did with Nero actually dying in DMC 4 before he got Yamato's powers for the first time, otherwise why the hell is he still alive in the island when he chases Dante in the human world?
Occams razor would point to the fact Mundus is still alive, and used the last of his energy to chase dante down to kill him before he got Jackpotted back to the demon world.
Idk, the fact that in DMC 5 Dante didn't believe that Vergil returned since he believed he was dead for the longest time until V dropped the bombshell on him and he wanted to confirm if it really was him or not. Can you provide evidence that actually proved Mundus died? Because you haven't proved it yet which doesn't help the high godly argument you're making.
Literally this scan right her flat out says after holding Yamato, Nero's body is reforming itself. This again proves this feat isn't something Nero did on his own as he needed outside help to regenerate his body from the savior.
The opposite.Occams razor would point to the fact Mundus is still alive, and used the last of his energy to chase dante down to kill him before he got Jackpotted back to the demon world.
I gave 3 options, where the 3 one indirectly says all encounters he had till he the neo-generator is removed is canon, so he just life stealed demon's souls to keep himself alive.How did he adapt when he never uses the neo generator again? Hell DMC 1 has the same mission type where you have your life being drained by the guiding light that can kill Dante so you can't really say he adapted otherwise that wouldn't have worked on him again. He can and will die to the Neo generator when Jester tells him and mocks him for being unable to withstand the device in the first place. Can you address the literal cutscene that is said by a reliable character where he backs up the point that the generator can kill dante?
The problem isBecause Mundus can warp away? He can dimension hop as shown in the game when he gets a portal open in his beaten state to the human world, it's not out of left field to assume he can do that to recover, otherwise there would've been a statement on him flat out dying.
@Deadguy Do you have any statements of Mundus in this timeline dying at all? Because the last last confrontation tells us otherwise when he's still alive. Also again, destroy doesn't mean literally erased to a conceptual level, things still exist despite being destroyed.
Because Mundus can warp away? He can dimension hop as shown in the game when he gets a portal open in his beaten state to the human world, it's not out of left field to assume he can do that to recover, otherwise there would've been a statement on him flat out dying.
So he wouldn't know if they're dead, meaning he can't confirm if vergil was actually dead or not when his body exploded, so vergil's point is rendered moot.
since there is the very same quote in the new oneThe new translation really doesn't change anything it's just fix some typos here and therey'all just boomers
Again it really doesn't mean much cuz all it proves that nero is still alive in that high godly state not capable of regenerating
doesn't mean much
literally proof of nero still existing in some way inside the savior
The problem here is that dante didn't really break all the gems in the savior he still have the one in his chest(which proves even more that the gems are what keeping nero like that because dante started to destroy it and dante primary goal was to free nero) yes he showed to destroy the one in his chest in the gameplay but cutscene says otherwise(the novel pretty much shows that after dante destroyed gem on his back dante immediately send yamato there but let's not get ahead of ourselves here)
As again nero was still alive beyond fundamental sense like a character with limited high godly regeneration because they need days to come back but they are still alive same thing case nero
there is a reason why we are using the guide here
well it doesn't matter that much if it was implied that a weaker versions of him capable of doing it like instinct reaction was an ability only dmc2 dante and above have it but dmc 1 novel showed also to have it making all of his keys to have this ability and iirc dante can use deconstruction when he shoots multiple bullets and not a single one
Let me put it like this we the players when we saw that we didn't exactly knew what hell was happening but saying dante didn't know what happened as well won't make any sense since narratively dante want to kill mundus and why so would he leave the devil sword sparda the thing that can make his revenge so possible behind? simple because he was sure that he killed him so yes in the player perspective it is kinda confusing but not in dante perspective that plus the fact that the underworld was collapsing the very same way in the alternate reality with the difference where void mundus actually died and never come back while this mundus was able to in less than 5 minutes
no it's infact you who's basing this off of headcanon, Vergil's feat is unknown, that's what I am saying, we cant assume it was 10 years because that's when he decided to show up in the main story, actually what is said in Nico's reports contradicts this
he went to the underworld after he exploded, this is what usually happens when demons die, they get sent to the underworld, not only does this imply his regen time was actually shorter, this explains his absence, he was trapped in the underworld
1) I was using the new translationdumbassbecause the old one was more or less explicit with the whole "becoming a unique existence within the savior"
2) The quote from the game says their bodies will melt together to form the core of the savior, nothing about souls for Nero. But regardless it doesn't matter because Nero still exist within the savior is some way or another which, again, is not enough for some godly regen.
This "high godly state" you talk about is pure headcanon, even more so considering what the actual requirements for the thing are here and what the quote from poc says, there has to be nothing left, literally nothing but here his body is melted and if we accept say the savior melted his soul then that too, both meltted and part of the savior, not erased and gone out of existence.
Go and read the regen page, this is not even close to enough proof for high godly regen
1) Dante broke all the gems, you can even see that when he stabs the savior with Yamato. So no, the gems aren't keeping Nero from coming back.
2) Dante wanted to save Nero, yes, but he knew only Yamato could do that as there wasn't any other way to get him out.
I don't really think you know what the novel is to the game, it is complementary material, it shows other stuff that wasn't in the game but it CAN'T contradict the game. If the game shows Dante broke all the gems and the novel says only 1 was broken then we discard that from the novel and keep what the game shows.
That's not how it works, for High Godly all aspects of your existence need to be gone, if he is still there in some way, shape or form that ain't High Godly fam
Not only that but he did not recover from that and could not recover from that, yamato was needed to save his ass.
Being alive =/= regenerating and "being alive" already goes against the requirements for HG
Same deal with deadly fortune above, if it contradicts the game then though luck and efi needs to go and cry or something.
It doesn't even help as to quote the guide
"How many times had he attacked? Dante's selfless slash finally inflicted a fatal wound on the demon emperor's strong body. Mundus, sensing his doom, wriggled in pain and disappeared into the void. This was the end of the battle." "It was, without a doubt, the demon emperor who was supposed to have been destroyed."
This shit is pretty vague and literally goes in line with Dante's perspective in game as he only sees Mundus trying to fly away and suddenly is back to the demon world, in fact here is the whole thing. Its obvious that from HIS perspective Mundus was killed. Of course that didn't happen otherwise we would have see the DW collapse like with the alternative universe Mundus.
It matters a lot, the same example you gave doesn't work when the feat from Vol 1 is something like fighting Gilver and it was just him trying to keep up with him on top of already having seen all his moves and knowing his fighting style, unlike Vol 2 where he dodges his way through a danmaku of weapons and attacks from the very omnipresent void he is inside without even knowing how he is doing it.
The deconstruction thing has never been stated to be dependent on multiple bullets or some other arbitrary parameter, in the novel he just shots once with the guns and thats pretty much what takes to kill gilver.
In short a weaker version can't and will never compare to the strongest in terms of abilities. You can see tons of examples besides this one.
I already explained above and the quotes from the guide support it, he inflicts a mortal wound upon Mundus and he tries to flee the fight only to get half of his body vaporized and Dante is transported to the demon world. From his perspective he has done it, he "killed" Mundus and therefore there was no need to keep the sword.
The underworld collapsing is because Mundus was dying, Dante himself even calls him out on that saying that both will die in the final showdown (Mundus because of his injuries and Dante at his hands) and Void Mundus death seems to trigger the collapse way faster than this one too.
The sins were actually still able to use their powers even when their names are gone like the one that trapped vergil in illusions and another made dante blood boil out of his body so yea and this hax is treated as special power in the verse that demons simply can't negate this special effect and s good antithesis to that is vergil since mundus(btw this feat was accepted here) took away his name and gave him nelo angelo name and when he got killed by dante in dmc1 he regenerated back by his original name but all that points jumps from my original point since you said that you need statements of him getting destroyed conceptually but I showed that demons don't die and can still use their powers if they were conceptually gone so even if he got conceptually destroyed the underworld still wouldn't have start collapsing@Deadguy Those demons needed others to give their powers back when their name is gone, you do realize that with names being concepts this shoots the high godly argument in the foot even harder if they can't even regenerate their names.
Okay can you explain how void mundus was able to sustain the demon realm without having a physical body since you stated that some parts of his body still existing yet the demon realm was going to collapse so as you can see even if his body was gone he doesn't need it to keep the underworld stableIf you destroyed every aspect of his being and he died that just proves even more high godly DMC doesn't exist when the lore doesn't back it up with any showcase of high godly feats. I'm talking about Mundus still existing despite being "destroyed" He can still exist with some parts of his body being around despite being destroyed, being destroyed doesn't prove high godly as you literally need all aspects of your existence to be gone and then regenerated from that.
Again he didn't fully kill him because he regenerated back(mainly because of the underworld collapsing supporting it that I don't see you addressing anywhere) and as again demons can live without their names and destroying the soul=destroying every aspect of their being which fortunately for us that dante can see soulsThat doesn't help your point when Dante didn't kill him in the end and was still alive, which again is still not high godly regeneration as you need specific statements of his entire existance down to the conceptual level being destroyed.
You seems to misunderstood me here what I stated that dante could know if they are alive or not if they have mid godly that dependent on the soul because he can see souls but high godly however he have nothing to make sure that he killed them or if they have some layers of resistance to his regeneration negation mundus and nelo are good examplesSo then why are you arguing regeneration negation if Dante suddenly doesn't know how demon regeneration works here? You're flip flopping your argument here.