- 10,344
- 11,896
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
DMC PoC continued
- Thread starter Theglassman12
- Start date
- Status
- 6,135
- 4,213
Its past midnight...and I am too sleepy to care.
- 923
- 439
that still doesn't mean anything, we don't know when or where Vergil came back, since there's a lot of reasons that could explain his absence, him being trapped in the Demon world is one of them for example, so yeah Vergils feat remain unknown timeframe wise unless we get statements
Vergil does scale to it since he did regenerate from the destruction of his soul, Sparda is a full demon so he scales to it, DT is literally them but full on demons so they definitely scale to it there. its not that hard, either neo-generator has regen negation (which is a pretty common thing in the verse) or him dying to it is simply an outlier, probably the former since then we'd end up with no contradictions
yeah the escape from death part is more of a gameplay tip explaining how to play against one of the enemies attacks, not a lore statement.
if you actually look at the cutscene. Cerberus was referring to the bright object when he said "take my soul", that's obviously the soul he was referring to, not the physical weapon it later forms. the physical devil arms being the souls themselves doesn't even solve your problem even if we axe the 9D statement entirely. since then regular ppl would still be able to interact with abstract concepts & information, which is a thing a normal human being isn't capable of doing
- 167,856
- 76,474
In order to get this discussion going again that is.
- 6,135
- 4,213
- 8,805
- 2,864
@EFÍTÉ
The interview can say whatever it wants, doesn't matter because the in game stuff clearly says they are being corrupted by the demon world, this is further backed up by the same interview you are using along with the DMC2 section of the graphic arts. The most important part is that the people aren't the sins you see in game, its told in game files very specifically they are demons using sand as their avatar to create bodies, nothing about humans so this literally doesn't work. Their intention means nothing when the game says otherwise.
I don't know why you bring the rest when it has nothing to do with it.
Considering the scans says something along the lines of "souls are sent there" the interpretation is obvious, this guy is taking the souls of the people that die and sending them to the hells and you can only get another interpretation with some wacky mental gimnastics.
@Deadguy
He is inside the savior obviously, he was melted inside to become the core, the heart of the weapon. Both game and novel say this, that is the spot dante was trying to find. This doesn't debunk or support anything.
This would be good and all but the new translation goes against what we previously had. Nero never lost his mind inside the savior, he just lost all sense of self and his memories there. To quote the novel:
"I didn’t know why. I couldn’t remember my name, only that I didn’t want to forget it. Who am I? I couldn’t talk or make a sound, or form a coherent thought. All I knew was that I felt like I’d lost something important - someone I cared about? Part of myself? Both?" Deadly Fortune, Vol 2. P. 29-30
Mind you all of this is before Dante goes to fight the savior. This alone debunks our previous notion of Nero fully becoming one with the savior and obviously debunks this miserable High-Godly attempt.
This doesn't help considering that Dante breaks all the gems and Nero only comes back after he uses Yamato so no, the gems don't keep him from regenerating, what keeps him from coming back is him being part of the savior to an unknown degree which is why, once again, Dante needed Yamato to save his ass.
I don't understand what you mean with the little part at the end but as I mentioned this above but yeah, Nero lost his individuality/sense of self but he wasn't fully one with the savior as he could still think, he still existed. This obviously shows there was part of nero still existing which as we know is far from enough to get High-Godly regen.
In the end this basically amounts to nothing, no godly regen nor fully merging with the savior which might end up downgrading Yamato in the process, thank you for that one tho
Mundus:
And yet the cutscene doesn't show much of that besides a flash of light when Mundus was still being destroyed and we are back to the demon world.
So, he only soul haxed Nelo to death he didn't "completely eradicate" him in the literal sense since parts of his armor still existed and made it to fortuna, just his soul. Argosax was killed by DMC2 Dante, someone who is leagues and magnitudes higher than this version of Dante same with the one that killed Echidna and iirc people attribute that to deconstruction with E&I.
And Dante never saw Mundus vanish till the very end, as I said above, we only stay inside the dimension up until half of mundus gets destroyed then a flash of light and bam back to the demon world, from our perspective (which is the same as Dante) we never see him get completely destroyed so saying "he didn't see his soul so he got fully eradicated" is wrong. I acknowledge the guide saying he vanished but that on its own isn't enough and barely got us Low-Godly in the original regen thread, this isn't gonna fly with High-Godly.
Because he literally shows up after more than 10 years, if he was able to come back earlier I assure you he would have gone for Yamato ASAP... and he didn't
@Theglassman12
We discussed this before and I saw something here about Abigail being the feat instead of Nero's.
To clarify, Nero feat only came to light when we made the Low-Godly thread, it wasn't used before not because it wasn't applicable but because we didn't knew about it. Now the feat is done 100% by Nero, Yamato didn't regenerate his body or anything, it literally separated him from the savior, basically what Vergil did with V and Urizen after that Nero (as a soul) started regenerating his melted body.
The interview can say whatever it wants, doesn't matter because the in game stuff clearly says they are being corrupted by the demon world, this is further backed up by the same interview you are using along with the DMC2 section of the graphic arts. The most important part is that the people aren't the sins you see in game, its told in game files very specifically they are demons using sand as their avatar to create bodies, nothing about humans so this literally doesn't work. Their intention means nothing when the game says otherwise.
I don't know why you bring the rest when it has nothing to do with it.
Considering the scans says something along the lines of "souls are sent there" the interpretation is obvious, this guy is taking the souls of the people that die and sending them to the hells and you can only get another interpretation with some wacky mental gimnastics.
@Deadguy
He is inside the savior obviously, he was melted inside to become the core, the heart of the weapon. Both game and novel say this, that is the spot dante was trying to find. This doesn't debunk or support anything.
This would be good and all but the new translation goes against what we previously had. Nero never lost his mind inside the savior, he just lost all sense of self and his memories there. To quote the novel:
"I didn’t know why. I couldn’t remember my name, only that I didn’t want to forget it. Who am I? I couldn’t talk or make a sound, or form a coherent thought. All I knew was that I felt like I’d lost something important - someone I cared about? Part of myself? Both?" Deadly Fortune, Vol 2. P. 29-30
Mind you all of this is before Dante goes to fight the savior. This alone debunks our previous notion of Nero fully becoming one with the savior and obviously debunks this miserable High-Godly attempt.
This doesn't help considering that Dante breaks all the gems and Nero only comes back after he uses Yamato so no, the gems don't keep him from regenerating, what keeps him from coming back is him being part of the savior to an unknown degree which is why, once again, Dante needed Yamato to save his ass.
I don't understand what you mean with the little part at the end but as I mentioned this above but yeah, Nero lost his individuality/sense of self but he wasn't fully one with the savior as he could still think, he still existed. This obviously shows there was part of nero still existing which as we know is far from enough to get High-Godly regen.
In the end this basically amounts to nothing, no godly regen nor fully merging with the savior which might end up downgrading Yamato in the process, thank you for that one tho
Mundus:
And yet the cutscene doesn't show much of that besides a flash of light when Mundus was still being destroyed and we are back to the demon world.
So, he only soul haxed Nelo to death he didn't "completely eradicate" him in the literal sense since parts of his armor still existed and made it to fortuna, just his soul. Argosax was killed by DMC2 Dante, someone who is leagues and magnitudes higher than this version of Dante same with the one that killed Echidna and iirc people attribute that to deconstruction with E&I.
And Dante never saw Mundus vanish till the very end, as I said above, we only stay inside the dimension up until half of mundus gets destroyed then a flash of light and bam back to the demon world, from our perspective (which is the same as Dante) we never see him get completely destroyed so saying "he didn't see his soul so he got fully eradicated" is wrong. I acknowledge the guide saying he vanished but that on its own isn't enough and barely got us Low-Godly in the original regen thread, this isn't gonna fly with High-Godly.
Because he literally shows up after more than 10 years, if he was able to come back earlier I assure you he would have gone for Yamato ASAP... and he didn't
@Theglassman12
We discussed this before and I saw something here about Abigail being the feat instead of Nero's.
To clarify, Nero feat only came to light when we made the Low-Godly thread, it wasn't used before not because it wasn't applicable but because we didn't knew about it. Now the feat is done 100% by Nero, Yamato didn't regenerate his body or anything, it literally separated him from the savior, basically what Vergil did with V and Urizen after that Nero (as a soul) started regenerating his melted body.
- 290
- 152
It debunks the notion that nero has become one being with the savior cuz then it won't really matter in which spot he is held by but it doesn't matter that much anyway
The new translation really doesn't change anything it's just fix some typos here and there
since there is the very same quote in the new one
And it will go against the QUOTE from the game that the savior can melt down both the body and the soul which again the soul contains all aspects of their beings he lost his concept(name) and his memories which both held in the soul so I don't see why his mind shouldn't gone through the same process and so it's more of what I like to call "high godly state" it means they are still alive in a conventional sense that all what it implies there
Again it really doesn't mean much cuz all it proves that nero is still alive in that high godly state not capable of regenerating
The problem here is that dante didn't really break all the gems in the savior he still have the one in his chest(which proves even more that the gems are what keeping nero like that because dante started to destroy it and dante primary goal was to free nero) yes he showed to destroy the one in his chest in the gameplay but cutscene says otherwise(the novel pretty much shows that after dante destroyed gem on his back dante immediately send yamato there but let's not get ahead of ourselves here)
As again nero was still alive beyond fundamental sense like a character with limited high godly regeneration because they need days to come back but they are still alive same thing case nero
there is a reason why we are using the guide here
Oh yea I remember that
well it doesn't matter that much if it was implied that a weaker versions of him capable of doing it like instinct reaction was an ability only dmc2 dante and above have it but dmc 1 novel showed also to have it making all of his keys to have this ability and iirc dante can use deconstruction when he shoots multiple bullets and not a single one
Let me put it like this we the players when we saw that we didn't exactly knew what hell was happening but saying dante didn't know what happened as well won't make any sense since narratively dante want to kill mundus and why so would he leave the devil sword sparda the thing that can make his revenge so possible behind? simple because he was sure that he killed him so yes in the player perspective it is kinda confusing but not in dante perspective that plus the fact that the underworld was collapsing the very same way in the alternate reality with the difference where void mundus actually died and never come back while this mundus was able to in less than 5 minutes
Fair enough
Last edited:
- 6,135
- 4,213
".....as long as they persist they can regenerate continue fighting without rest"
Demons don't die even aftet losing everything....they still exist in a way and "persist" before regeneration...thats the state of existence Nero is trapped in.
And Nero didn't gain sentience untill Dante+Yamato started fighting Saviour outside. Its the presence of Yamato outside that allows him to "wake up" slightly. Its not untill he is separated later that he regenerates on his own. So before Dante approaches Saviour....Nero is completely gone inside Savior's heart.
- 290
- 152
My problem here couldn't yamato just automatically healed nero from the start like it did with agnus?
- 6,135
- 4,213
Yamato never healed him there....it just awakened his power. We know what that does to Sparda descendants..especially their physiology and regeneration by extension.
- 290
- 152
The only thing that been discussed right now is high godly regeneration and higher dimensional existence so far we are just waiting for glass response for now
- 167,856
- 76,474
- 20,083
- 10,871
- Thread starter
- #136
I have finals this week, I’ll finish this thread when I finish my exams.
- 923
- 439
we still havent come to a conclusion about a single thing so here's the votes on the topics under discussion for this thread(regen & HDE souls):
Agree : EFITE, deadman, gliver, DarkGrath
Disagree : Glass
the others I'm not sure which side they're on. so I'll leave it at that
Agree : EFITE, deadman, gliver, DarkGrath
Disagree : Glass
the others I'm not sure which side they're on. so I'll leave it at that
Last edited:
- 6,135
- 4,213
Glass agreed with Type4&8 along with Negation.
HiGodly he only seems to disagree for Sparda Heritage....or atleast thinks combat inapplicable. Still disgarees with 9D.
- 923
- 439
oh yeah i forgot about that, my b
as for regeneration I dont think he changed his arguments, since they still pretty much rely on the same points, well if he did it wasn't clear enough
- 167,856
- 76,474
Okay. No problem.
- 290
- 152
pretty sure KLOK said he also agree so he should be counted as well
- 1,577
- 350
Just a thing i wanna mention about demons having a "non existence will".
If Yamato is capable to separe Nero from the Savior when he was traped inside there, Yamato should have the ability to interact with NEP2 beings by being able to interact with something that don't exist on a conceptual level (Aka Nero's will), since he lost his soul and body there after they are melted by the Savior.
Same for every demon and Sparda boy that can kill demons for good and they never come back for a second round.
- 20,083
- 10,871
- Thread starter
- #143
Sorry for the long wait, exams and a certain wiki project have kept me on hold from commenting. I’ll respond tomorrow.
- 20,083
- 10,871
- Thread starter
- #145
alright I'm back, hopefully no more delays.
@Deadguy He didn't kinda die, he just got his ass kicked. If he died at that very moment against DSS Dante and revived the series would've mentioned that very important information like it did with Nero actually dying in DMC 4 before he got Yamato's powers for the first time, otherwise why the hell is he still alive in the island when he chases Dante in the human world? Occams razor would point to the fact Mundus is still alive, and used the last of his energy to chase dante down to kill him before he got Jackpotted back to the demon world.
Idk, the fact that in DMC 5 Dante didn't believe that Vergil returned since he believed he was dead for the longest time until V dropped the bombshell on him and he wanted to confirm if it really was him or not. Can you provide evidence that actually proved Mundus died? Because you haven't proved it yet which doesn't help the high godly argument you're making.
Literally this scan right her flat out says after holding Yamato, Nero's body is reforming itself. This again proves this feat isn't something Nero did on his own as he needed outside help to regenerate his body from the savior.
@Sevil Natas Yes it does mean something, again if Vergil is so willingly able to walk into Nero's house to rip his own son's arm off to get Yamato back to get his powers back, he would've done this a long time ago if he was already back, especially at Fortuna where he would've just barged in to get Yamato from the order like he did to Nero. Unless you have proof Vergil came back way later which isn't proven whatsoever here, this is based off headcanon.
Vergil's non combat applicable feat of regenerating from his soul being gone, which btw we have no proof his soul was destroyed, we know his body was destroyed but not his soul, especially considering nelo angelo's soul isn't exactly his soul, but Vergil's soul put inside the armor for Mundus to control him in the first place. No what's common in the verse is the fact that they would state weapons being able to kill others. Neo Generator has one thing and one thing only, sucking out your soul. Dante dies when his soul is gone in DT, that's flat out shown and stated in cutscenes by reliable source of information.
So we're ignoring the whole lore bit of them stealing their souls? Because that's kind of important to my argument against sparda heritage characters having the regen.
Dude, Cerberus literally says take my soul and go forth. Dante takes the devil arms he leaves behind. How is that hard to understand that when he says soul, he means the devil arms? What else did dante take in that cutscene that wasn't the cerberus weapon? So that just means they're not that hard to affect if normal people can touch devil arms, simple as that.
@Deadguy He didn't kinda die, he just got his ass kicked. If he died at that very moment against DSS Dante and revived the series would've mentioned that very important information like it did with Nero actually dying in DMC 4 before he got Yamato's powers for the first time, otherwise why the hell is he still alive in the island when he chases Dante in the human world? Occams razor would point to the fact Mundus is still alive, and used the last of his energy to chase dante down to kill him before he got Jackpotted back to the demon world.
Idk, the fact that in DMC 5 Dante didn't believe that Vergil returned since he believed he was dead for the longest time until V dropped the bombshell on him and he wanted to confirm if it really was him or not. Can you provide evidence that actually proved Mundus died? Because you haven't proved it yet which doesn't help the high godly argument you're making.
Literally this scan right her flat out says after holding Yamato, Nero's body is reforming itself. This again proves this feat isn't something Nero did on his own as he needed outside help to regenerate his body from the savior.
@Sevil Natas Yes it does mean something, again if Vergil is so willingly able to walk into Nero's house to rip his own son's arm off to get Yamato back to get his powers back, he would've done this a long time ago if he was already back, especially at Fortuna where he would've just barged in to get Yamato from the order like he did to Nero. Unless you have proof Vergil came back way later which isn't proven whatsoever here, this is based off headcanon.
Vergil's non combat applicable feat of regenerating from his soul being gone, which btw we have no proof his soul was destroyed, we know his body was destroyed but not his soul, especially considering nelo angelo's soul isn't exactly his soul, but Vergil's soul put inside the armor for Mundus to control him in the first place. No what's common in the verse is the fact that they would state weapons being able to kill others. Neo Generator has one thing and one thing only, sucking out your soul. Dante dies when his soul is gone in DT, that's flat out shown and stated in cutscenes by reliable source of information.
So we're ignoring the whole lore bit of them stealing their souls? Because that's kind of important to my argument against sparda heritage characters having the regen.
Dude, Cerberus literally says take my soul and go forth. Dante takes the devil arms he leaves behind. How is that hard to understand that when he says soul, he means the devil arms? What else did dante take in that cutscene that wasn't the cerberus weapon? So that just means they're not that hard to affect if normal people can touch devil arms, simple as that.
- 20,083
- 10,871
- Thread starter
- #147
You're welcome, like I said when we're done done with the debating I'll tag you, me and the other side will give our arguments and the staff can give their thoughts.
- 923
- 439
no it's infact you who's basing this off of headcanon, Vergil's feat is unknown, that's what I am saying, we cant assume it was 10 years because that's when he decided to show up in the main story, actually what is said in Nico's reports contradicts this
he went to the underworld after he exploded, this is what usually happens when demons die, they get sent to the underworld, not only does this imply his regen time was actually shorter, this explains his absence, he was trapped in the underworld
his soul was destroyed because 1. dante couldn't see it 2. because he went to the underworld after which is what happens when demons die
that just gives it regeneration negation, it being able to kill Dante doesn't mean anti-feat for his regeneration, it means regeneration negation for the neo-generator, All but the weakest demons can regenerate from having their souls destroyed that's what's also stated by reliable sources of information.
meaning demon regen is tied to power, that's what we accepted for years now pretty much, and this statement
yeah this solidifies Dante scaling to it. unless we got reason to assume the neo-generator doesn't have regeneration negation (in this case we have reason to assume the opposite cus it's a magical weapon & that's a common thing with them from the statements above) it's not an anti-feat for Dantes regeneration, it's a feat for the neo-generator which gives it regen negation
yes they can steal souls, what i disagree with, is that they can kill dante by using that, not only does that break the story narratively (a random fodder demon being able to kill the most powerful devil hunter in the verse) but the statement used to prove that they can.
is not even talking about Dante, it's a gameplay tip directed at the player
i know what he said, the weapon itself is not the soul, it's something made from it, when he said take my soul, Dante took the bright object which is the soul and made a physical weapon from it, so they're not the same and by your logic, we might as well axe everything that makes the soul a soul including its non-corporeality, because "normal people could touch it" , btw 3D beings can interact with higher dimensional objects, they just cannot reach all of it because it's infinitely larger but they can touch it, so even if we go by your ridiculous logic it's still not valid proof to disprove the 9D statement
- 290
- 152
But... they did because the underworld was collapsing after that something can happen only if mundus died and then you have the guide saying that he got "destroyed" which if you don't think they mean kill then I don't know what it means to you
Again the problem here is dante because let's say mundus warped away then why dante is so confident that he killed him if he wasn't sure like us of what exactly happened in that moment like wouldn't he consider the fact that he possibly teleported as you can see it contradicts it narratively because mundus is possibly most being he hates and he got the point across that he wanted him dead so if dante didn't deliver the killing blow then he shouldn't have thought he actually killed him(that plus the underworld collapse thing that you should take into consideration)
Well you see the problem here is that if say there is a character with high godly regeneration dante wouldn't actually know if they are legitimately dead or not so and again I provided with evidence with dante killing intention and the underworld collapsing
So as gilver pointed out this feat will make it applicable to just their devil trigger form since dmc4 nero can't access to his devil trigger without yamato so basically we will do the same thing we did with mid godly regeneration which make it overtime in their base form and then combat applicable in their devil trigger
I believe it's good to conclude it now because we are going forth and back with some arguments and this thread was open for like a month or so and let the staff do their thing
Last edited:
- 506
- 170
The opposite.
I not bringing the scans again, but they point out to diferent outcome. Occams Razor would benefit those scans.
While i get glass points, the standard on the wiki here considers non-canon deaths to be invalid.
About the Neo-Generator
Dante after Devil Triggers doens't show any physical signs of weakness, and the pain he felt in the end is the Neo-Generator being removed from him, which can fall into three factors.
1-He adapted
2-Can regenerate faster than the damage caused by the neo-generator
3- Or Dante is capable of life stealing demons.
On any case, he doens't die to neo-generator.
- 20,083
- 10,871
- Thread starter
- #151
@Sevil Natas That's referring to DMC 3 Vergil, not Nelo Angelo, in the mallet island that Lady herself wouldn't know the specifics since she wasn't there in the first place.
When was he thrown back into the underworld in 1? Your only example is in 3 where he willingly fell there because he wanted to be like his dad, Vergil was never stated to go to the underworld when he lost as Nelo angelo. Also Dante wasn't exactly able to see clearly given his eyes were covered so the fact that his soul can be intact is still there, especially when we have no statements that their soul is gone.
No it doesn't, it would've given extra information like how Beowulf's eye couldn't heal because of sparda if it actually had regeneration negation. Also again, Dante is half human and half demon, he's not a full blown demon like others are, and the fact remains he literally dies if his soul was gone among other things proves he doesn't scale to full blown demons with everything everything.
Them stealing souls which can be lethal if it works, on top of the neo generator being lethal to dante proves my point that having his soul being removed results in instant death for him.
How the **** are you telling me the weapon is not the soul when the light literally forms into the weapon? It's still their ******* soul, if Beowulf tells Dante to take his soul and go forth, and the only thing he takes is his devil arm, why would that not be their own soul? Especially when we have that as part of their physiology page to begin with. Also if the fact that these souls are just objects that anyone can normally interact with it shoots the argument of it being 9-D in the foot if they can just normally interact with it with no explanation on how or why they can despite stating to be a higher dimensional source.
@Deadguy Do you have any statements of Mundus in this timeline dying at all? Because the last last confrontation tells us otherwise when he's still alive. Also again, destroy doesn't mean literally erased to a conceptual level, things still exist despite being destroyed.
Because Mundus can warp away? He can dimension hop as shown in the game when he gets a portal open in his beaten state to the human world, it's not out of left field to assume he can do that to recover, otherwise there would've been a statement on him flat out dying.
So he wouldn't know if they're dead, meaning he can't confirm if vergil was actually dead or not when his body exploded, so vergil's point is rendered moot.
That's fine by me
@EFÍTÉ How did he adapt when he never uses the neo generator again? Hell DMC 1 has the same mission type where you have your life being drained by the guiding light that can kill Dante so you can't really say he adapted otherwise that wouldn't have worked on him again. He can and will die to the Neo generator when Jester tells him and mocks him for being unable to withstand the device in the first place. Can you address the literal cutscene that is said by a reliable character where he backs up the point that the generator can kill dante?
When was he thrown back into the underworld in 1? Your only example is in 3 where he willingly fell there because he wanted to be like his dad, Vergil was never stated to go to the underworld when he lost as Nelo angelo. Also Dante wasn't exactly able to see clearly given his eyes were covered so the fact that his soul can be intact is still there, especially when we have no statements that their soul is gone.
No it doesn't, it would've given extra information like how Beowulf's eye couldn't heal because of sparda if it actually had regeneration negation. Also again, Dante is half human and half demon, he's not a full blown demon like others are, and the fact remains he literally dies if his soul was gone among other things proves he doesn't scale to full blown demons with everything everything.
Them stealing souls which can be lethal if it works, on top of the neo generator being lethal to dante proves my point that having his soul being removed results in instant death for him.
How the **** are you telling me the weapon is not the soul when the light literally forms into the weapon? It's still their ******* soul, if Beowulf tells Dante to take his soul and go forth, and the only thing he takes is his devil arm, why would that not be their own soul? Especially when we have that as part of their physiology page to begin with. Also if the fact that these souls are just objects that anyone can normally interact with it shoots the argument of it being 9-D in the foot if they can just normally interact with it with no explanation on how or why they can despite stating to be a higher dimensional source.
@Deadguy Do you have any statements of Mundus in this timeline dying at all? Because the last last confrontation tells us otherwise when he's still alive. Also again, destroy doesn't mean literally erased to a conceptual level, things still exist despite being destroyed.
Because Mundus can warp away? He can dimension hop as shown in the game when he gets a portal open in his beaten state to the human world, it's not out of left field to assume he can do that to recover, otherwise there would've been a statement on him flat out dying.
So he wouldn't know if they're dead, meaning he can't confirm if vergil was actually dead or not when his body exploded, so vergil's point is rendered moot.
That's fine by me
@EFÍTÉ How did he adapt when he never uses the neo generator again? Hell DMC 1 has the same mission type where you have your life being drained by the guiding light that can kill Dante so you can't really say he adapted otherwise that wouldn't have worked on him again. He can and will die to the Neo generator when Jester tells him and mocks him for being unable to withstand the device in the first place. Can you address the literal cutscene that is said by a reliable character where he backs up the point that the generator can kill dante?
- 506
- 170
I gave 3 options, where the 3 one indirectly says all encounters he had till he the neo-generator is removed is canon, so he just life stealed demon's souls to keep himself alive.
You're appealing that dante's adaptation doens't adapt at first encounter, while there's several feats in the demon physiology page showing he does adapt fast at first encounters.
Arkham is right about the Neo-generator, but he doens't know about Dante's adaptation, heck he goes from dying to stand up and massacre every demon trying to kill him, reaching the bridge to remove the neo-generator without any signs of weakness and his DT has consistent feats of avoiding him being affected by alice and Nevan.
So the Neo-generator is either damaging him faster than he can regenerate or regen negging
Since he regenerates and adapts stupid fast, regen negging is likely to be the answer.
- 506
- 170
The problem is
we 100% see him dying inside his dimension, he disappears along with the dimension, which means the dimension doens't exist anymore and would EE all the matter inside, which includes everything inside including Mundus. The guide and game makes clear that he died temporarily or the Demon world nuking itself wouldn't happen (since mundus's needs to be dead to trigger that, not even the death of demons stronger than Mundus, like Argosax caused that).
- 290
- 152
Yea we have the underworld collapsing stuff and the conceptual destruction statements unneeded when 1) demons can live without their concepts like the sins in dmc3 manga which proves even if he was destroyed conceptually he can still live withoutit(if anyone didn't understand then bear with me in 2 because it's kinda related to 1) 2) when void mundus died and the underworld collapsed we can for certain know his soul was destroyed(which contains all aspects of their being including their concepts) this proves you need to destroy every aspect of his being(which goes to point 1 that destroying him conceptually isn't enough) to make the demon world start collapsing and do you mean by "things still exist despite being destroyed" do you mean that the demon world is still existing? If that so then that's because mundus regenerated as void mundus wasn't able to come back the underworld of that alternate reality collapsed but this mundus was able to come back and thus the underworld didn't exploded and collapsed like the one from the alternate reality
Well if the they have high godly regeneration(which is the point here) then yea he wouldn't have know if they completely dead since he can see there souls(which again contains all aspects of their being) and destroyed it then he wouldn't sure if they possibly have some layers of resistance to his regeneration negation
- 8,805
- 2,864
@Deadguy
https://media.discordapp.net/attach...492/919878714035159060/Screenshot_-_Drive.jpg
And it will go against the QUOTE from the game that the savior can melt down both the body and the soul which again the soul contains all aspects of their beings he lost his concept(name) and his memories which both held in the soul so I don't see why his mind shouldn't gone through the same process and so it's more of what I like to call "high godly state" it means they are still alive in a conventional sense that all what it implies there
1) I was using the new translationdumbass because the old one was more or less explicit with the whole "becoming a unique existence within the savior"
2) The quote from the game says their bodies will melt together to form the core of the savior, nothing about souls for Nero. But regardless it doesn't matter because Nero still exist within the savior is some way or another which, again, is not enough for some godly regen.
This "high godly state" you talk about is pure headcanon, even more so considering what the actual requirements for the thing are here and what the quote from poc says, there has to be nothing left, literally nothing but here his body is melted and if we accept say the savior melted his soul then that too, both meltted and part of the savior, not erased and gone out of existence.
Go and read the regen page, this is not even close to enough proof for high godly regen
1) Dante broke all the gems, you can even see that when he stabs the savior with Yamato. So no, the gems aren't keeping Nero from coming back. 2) Dante wanted to save Nero, yes, but he knew only Yamato could do that as there wasn't any other way to get him out.
I don't really think you know what the novel is to the game, it is complementary material, it shows other stuff that wasn't in the game but it CAN'T contradict the game. If the game shows Dante broke all the gems and the novel says only 1 was broken then we discard that from the novel and keep what the game shows.
That's not how it works, for High Godly all aspects of your existence need to be gone, if he is still there in some way, shape or form that ain't High Godly fam. Not only that but he did not recover from that and could not recover from that, yamato was needed to save his ass.
Being alive =/= regenerating and "being alive" already goes against the requirements for HG
Mundus:
Same deal with deadly fortune above, if it contradicts the game then though luck and efi needs to go and cry or something.
It doesn't even help as to quote the guide
"How many times had he attacked? Dante's selfless slash finally inflicted a fatal wound on the demon emperor's strong body. Mundus, sensing his doom, wriggled in pain and disappeared into the void. This was the end of the battle." "It was, without a doubt, the demon emperor who was supposed to have been destroyed."
This shit is pretty vague and literally goes in line with Dante's perspective in game as he only sees Mundus trying to fly away and suddenly is back to the demon world, in fact here is the whole thing. Its obvious that from HIS perspective Mundus was killed. Of course that didn't happen otherwise we would have see the DW collapse like with the alternative universe Mundus.
It matters a lot, the same example you gave doesn't work when the feat from Vol 1 is something like fighting Gilver and it was just him trying to keep up with him on top of already having seen all his moves and knowing his fighting style, unlike Vol 2 where he dodges his way through a danmaku of weapons and attacks from the very omnipresent void he is inside without even knowing how he is doing it.
The deconstruction thing has never been stated to be dependent on multiple bullets or some other arbitrary parameter, in the novel he just shots once with the guns and thats pretty much what takes to kill gilver.
In short a weaker version can't and will never compare to the strongest in terms of abilities. You can see tons of examples besides this one.
I already explained above and the quotes from the guide support it, he inflicts a mortal wound upon Mundus and he tries to flee the fight only to get half of his body vaporized and Dante is transported to the demon world. From his perspective he has done it, he "killed" Mundus and therefore there was no need to keep the sword.
The underworld collapsing is because Mundus was dying, Dante himself even calls him out on that saying that both will die in the final showdown (Mundus because of his injuries and Dante at his hands) and Void Mundus death seems to trigger the collapse way faster than this one too.
@Sevil Natas
Bruh, this is about DMC3 where he lost against Dante and was thrown (he threw himself) into the depths of the demon world, that's very obvious considering its Lady who told that to Nico.
since there is the very same quote in the new one
https://media.discordapp.net/attach...492/919878714035159060/Screenshot_-_Drive.jpg
And it will go against the QUOTE from the game that the savior can melt down both the body and the soul which again the soul contains all aspects of their beings he lost his concept(name) and his memories which both held in the soul so I don't see why his mind shouldn't gone through the same process and so it's more of what I like to call "high godly state" it means they are still alive in a conventional sense that all what it implies there
1) I was using the new translation
2) The quote from the game says their bodies will melt together to form the core of the savior, nothing about souls for Nero. But regardless it doesn't matter because Nero still exist within the savior is some way or another which, again, is not enough for some godly regen.
This "high godly state" you talk about is pure headcanon, even more so considering what the actual requirements for the thing are here and what the quote from poc says, there has to be nothing left, literally nothing but here his body is melted and if we accept say the savior melted his soul then that too, both meltted and part of the savior, not erased and gone out of existence.
Go and read the regen page, this is not even close to enough proof for high godly regen
1) Dante broke all the gems, you can even see that when he stabs the savior with Yamato. So no, the gems aren't keeping Nero from coming back. 2) Dante wanted to save Nero, yes, but he knew only Yamato could do that as there wasn't any other way to get him out.
I don't really think you know what the novel is to the game, it is complementary material, it shows other stuff that wasn't in the game but it CAN'T contradict the game. If the game shows Dante broke all the gems and the novel says only 1 was broken then we discard that from the novel and keep what the game shows.
That's not how it works, for High Godly all aspects of your existence need to be gone, if he is still there in some way, shape or form that ain't High Godly fam. Not only that but he did not recover from that and could not recover from that, yamato was needed to save his ass.
Being alive =/= regenerating and "being alive" already goes against the requirements for HG
Mundus:
Same deal with deadly fortune above, if it contradicts the game then though luck and efi needs to go and cry or something.
It doesn't even help as to quote the guide
"How many times had he attacked? Dante's selfless slash finally inflicted a fatal wound on the demon emperor's strong body. Mundus, sensing his doom, wriggled in pain and disappeared into the void. This was the end of the battle." "It was, without a doubt, the demon emperor who was supposed to have been destroyed."
This shit is pretty vague and literally goes in line with Dante's perspective in game as he only sees Mundus trying to fly away and suddenly is back to the demon world, in fact here is the whole thing. Its obvious that from HIS perspective Mundus was killed. Of course that didn't happen otherwise we would have see the DW collapse like with the alternative universe Mundus.
It matters a lot, the same example you gave doesn't work when the feat from Vol 1 is something like fighting Gilver and it was just him trying to keep up with him on top of already having seen all his moves and knowing his fighting style, unlike Vol 2 where he dodges his way through a danmaku of weapons and attacks from the very omnipresent void he is inside without even knowing how he is doing it.
The deconstruction thing has never been stated to be dependent on multiple bullets or some other arbitrary parameter, in the novel he just shots once with the guns and thats pretty much what takes to kill gilver.
In short a weaker version can't and will never compare to the strongest in terms of abilities. You can see tons of examples besides this one.
I already explained above and the quotes from the guide support it, he inflicts a mortal wound upon Mundus and he tries to flee the fight only to get half of his body vaporized and Dante is transported to the demon world. From his perspective he has done it, he "killed" Mundus and therefore there was no need to keep the sword.
The underworld collapsing is because Mundus was dying, Dante himself even calls him out on that saying that both will die in the final showdown (Mundus because of his injuries and Dante at his hands) and Void Mundus death seems to trigger the collapse way faster than this one too.
@Sevil Natas
Bruh, this is about DMC3 where he lost against Dante and was thrown (he threw himself) into the depths of the demon world, that's very obvious considering its Lady who told that to Nico.
- 290
- 152
My bad then lmao
Yea except there is also another quote from the game that says the savior is holding many melted down bodies and souls of demons within him
I will explain the whole high godly state and why it's necessary later but for now you know that poc explicitly says that they regenerate back as long as "they persist" meaning what we hearing is most likely nero will(which isn't something new given characters like zamasu are capable of existing as pure will only) and melted = gone in this case because his body,soul,mind,concept and memories are gone no longer existing
I did but nothing in the page mentions that willpower also is necessarily to be gone to get high godly regeneration
Yea but the problem is that the yamato went through it only it didn't got destroyed like the rest and it's clearly fine as you can see
Then he could have y'know used yamato way earlier instead of trying to destroy every single gem on the savior especially since his main goal is to save nero
The page for high godly says that to you need to regenerate from being destroyed physically,mentally,spiritually and one more fundamental aspect doesn't matter if it is conceptually,narratively,informationlly(is that even a word?) or any kinda of fundamental aspect of your being and also the whole high godly state thing is the only thing that separates it being a regeneration feat or a resurrection feat since there are characters who have a absurd levels of resurrection like coming back from being from existence and such
Well yea because in dmc4 nero needs the yamato to activate his devil trigger which have much regeneration to his base with all the physiology shenanigans
Well you see you remember the whole high godly state thing is the only thing that separates it being a regeneration feat or a resurrection feat since there are characters who have a absurd levels of resurrection like coming back from being erased from existence and such
Wut? you can't say that he will be confident that he killed him if he didn't see him dying because the scene you brought is makes it vague and if that actually dante perspective then it should strike him more of confusion more than confidence
No it comes from a statement that he can take an action faster than he could think of it
Yea I checked it and you're right he didn't shoot multiple bullets for it
Yea except I'm not comparing in there potency I'm just saying that he if a weaker version was to shows it like instinct reaction
Again if this is actually exactly how dante saw it then he should be confused about it like if the scene went all flashy and white how that's make him sure he killed him it makes no sense like he didn't die infort of him
That's because one is completely dead while the other is trying to regenerate back and dante was more talking about the island collapse and was more on the assumption that the explosion of the island was going to kill them
Last edited:
- 20,083
- 10,871
- Thread starter
- #158
@EFÍTÉ If he regenerated faster than the Generator then Jester would've mentioned that, but he didn't as he knew Dante couldn't handle it hence why he was affected in the first place, also you need proof, not headcanon that he adapted. Can you prove there's any way he canonically has the ability to life steal enemies as opposed to just getting to the bridge as soon as possible? Because I don't see any here.
No I'm not appealing to anything, I'm stating a fact, that if Dante's evolution was consistent then the guiding light wouldn't have drained his life, which happens in the game itself.
No Jester flat out tells Dante that the generator gives him overwhelming power in exchange for his soul, hence why the entire mission Dante is in DT, There's no regenerating faster nonsense that's remotely implied as Dante is constantly losing his life while in DT until he gets to the bridge and get the generator out of his body. Give me a scan or a statement that blatantly says Dante regens faster than the generator's soul drain. Regen negging isn't the answer here, especially when contradictions exist in lore, Dante and none of the other sparda heritage beings have anything to back up this random statement from PoC where they can come back even if their souls are gone. Regen negging is far more of a headcanon than just saying it's inconsistent with the lore as if that's the case Dante, Nero, etc. would've showcased this ability.
And he's not really dead, he shows up later in a beaten up state, meaning Dante didn't kill him, meaning he isn't dead after all, simple as that.
@Deadguy Those demons needed others to give their powers back when their name is gone, you do realize that with names being concepts this shoots the high godly argument in the foot even harder if they can't even regenerate their names. If you destroyed every aspect of his being and he died that just proves even more high godly DMC doesn't exist when the lore doesn't back it up with any showcase of high godly feats. I'm talking about Mundus still existing despite being "destroyed" He can still exist with some parts of his body being around despite being destroyed, being destroyed doesn't prove high godly as you literally need all aspects of your existence to be gone and then regenerated from that.
That doesn't help your point when Dante didn't kill him in the end and was still alive, which again is still not high godly regeneration as you need specific statements of his entire existance down to the conceptual level being destroyed.
So then why are you arguing regeneration negation if Dante suddenly doesn't know how demon regeneration works here? You're flip flopping your argument here.
No I'm not appealing to anything, I'm stating a fact, that if Dante's evolution was consistent then the guiding light wouldn't have drained his life, which happens in the game itself.
No Jester flat out tells Dante that the generator gives him overwhelming power in exchange for his soul, hence why the entire mission Dante is in DT, There's no regenerating faster nonsense that's remotely implied as Dante is constantly losing his life while in DT until he gets to the bridge and get the generator out of his body. Give me a scan or a statement that blatantly says Dante regens faster than the generator's soul drain. Regen negging isn't the answer here, especially when contradictions exist in lore, Dante and none of the other sparda heritage beings have anything to back up this random statement from PoC where they can come back even if their souls are gone. Regen negging is far more of a headcanon than just saying it's inconsistent with the lore as if that's the case Dante, Nero, etc. would've showcased this ability.
And he's not really dead, he shows up later in a beaten up state, meaning Dante didn't kill him, meaning he isn't dead after all, simple as that.
@Deadguy Those demons needed others to give their powers back when their name is gone, you do realize that with names being concepts this shoots the high godly argument in the foot even harder if they can't even regenerate their names. If you destroyed every aspect of his being and he died that just proves even more high godly DMC doesn't exist when the lore doesn't back it up with any showcase of high godly feats. I'm talking about Mundus still existing despite being "destroyed" He can still exist with some parts of his body being around despite being destroyed, being destroyed doesn't prove high godly as you literally need all aspects of your existence to be gone and then regenerated from that.
That doesn't help your point when Dante didn't kill him in the end and was still alive, which again is still not high godly regeneration as you need specific statements of his entire existance down to the conceptual level being destroyed.
So then why are you arguing regeneration negation if Dante suddenly doesn't know how demon regeneration works here? You're flip flopping your argument here.
- 290
- 152
The sins were actually still able to use their powers even when their names are gone like the one that trapped vergil in illusions and another made dante blood boil out of his body so yea and this hax is treated as special power in the verse that demons simply can't negate this special effect and s good antithesis to that is vergil since mundus(btw this feat was accepted here) took away his name and gave him nelo angelo name and when he got killed by dante in dmc1 he regenerated back by his original name but all that points jumps from my original point since you said that you need statements of him getting destroyed conceptually but I showed that demons don't die and can still use their powers if they were conceptually gone so even if he got conceptually destroyed the underworld still wouldn't have start collapsing
Okay can you explain how void mundus was able to sustain the demon realm without having a physical body since you stated that some parts of his body still existing yet the demon realm was going to collapse so as you can see even if his body was gone he doesn't need it to keep the underworld stable
Again he didn't fully kill him because he regenerated back(mainly because of the underworld collapsing supporting it that I don't see you addressing anywhere) and as again demons can live without their names and destroying the soul=destroying every aspect of their being which fortunately for us that dante can see souls
You seems to misunderstood me here what I stated that dante could know if they are alive or not if they have mid godly that dependent on the soul because he can see souls but high godly however he have nothing to make sure that he killed them or if they have some layers of resistance to his regeneration negation mundus and nelo are good examples
Last edited:
- 20,083
- 10,871
- Thread starter
- #160
were those actually sins who lost their names or just other random demons? Because I don't recall those demons being Sins. Demons not dying just proves my Mundus point further as he simply didn't die in DMC 1, especially considering how again he still appears. Also again, prove Nelo actually died because it's never confirmed if he died or not.
You mean the guy who literally became the entire demon world itself? And the fact demons can exist as spirits doesn't really help your point here.
The underworld collapsing was because of Mundus' powers weakening due to the fact he can be affected by base Dante as opposed to Sparda DT Dante, also if he didn't fully kill him then he didn't kill him period. You do realize that them living without their names, which is something they need to ask for outside help to restore their names like Sparda and his kids just further proves the PoC scan isn't consistent with the lore since we've never seen this being showcased?
Why would Nelo be a good example if he's not really vergil? On top of the fact that he still regenerated from his destruction. Again he covered his eyes when Nelo exploded so how the hell can he remotely see his soul when he covered it by the time Nelo was done exploding in flames?
You mean the guy who literally became the entire demon world itself? And the fact demons can exist as spirits doesn't really help your point here.
The underworld collapsing was because of Mundus' powers weakening due to the fact he can be affected by base Dante as opposed to Sparda DT Dante, also if he didn't fully kill him then he didn't kill him period. You do realize that them living without their names, which is something they need to ask for outside help to restore their names like Sparda and his kids just further proves the PoC scan isn't consistent with the lore since we've never seen this being showcased?
Why would Nelo be a good example if he's not really vergil? On top of the fact that he still regenerated from his destruction. Again he covered his eyes when Nelo exploded so how the hell can he remotely see his soul when he covered it by the time Nelo was done exploding in flames?
- Status
