DMC PoC continued

[Theglassman12]

Continuation of this thread. Considering numerous people kept derailing the thread to hell and back with stuff not relevant to the discussion, I'm moving this to here. And I'm allowing @Sevil Natas @Lightning_XXI @Tony_di_bugalu @GilverTheProtoAngelo and @KLOL506 to comment here. If any normal user wants to actually debate here and not derail you're gonna have to ask for permission from staff.

 

[KLOL506]

As said before, I am in full agreement with the 9-D souls, regen and the hax stuff.

 

[Sevil Natas]

9D souls is HDE only btw, it would not apply to potency

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write easy to understand explanations of the discussion so far please?

Also, why should higher-dimensional existence scale to 1-C attack potency in this case?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Also, why should higher-dimensional existence scale to 1-C attack potency in this case?

It doesn't...its no longer the proposal

 

[KLOL506]

What Gilver said. At the moment it's no longer the proposal and has been postponed indefinitely. As per what Ultima told us, 9-D souls would only get HDE and affecting them would only be range-based feats, it would not be AP.

Also the summary is already in the original thread's first post.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. In that case it seems to make sense to me except for that High-Godly regeneration seems exaggerated. Mid-Godly should be fine though.

 

[Antvasima]

this revision aims to add the new Powers and lore we've got from DMC Peak of combat, this includes some big things, so let's start with the biggest.

Souls :
The Soul It continues to hide mysteries that humans and demons don't understand, mysteries but every human has such. A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path. It not only contains the mind and memory, but also contains all the information of the body and its ancestors since ancient times
as a result of the above. souls would get Higher-Dimensional Existence
now with the statement PoC has given us there have been some major changes to the soul
like the mind and information being contained in it. this would affect our regular Soul manipulation to include mind & information manipulation as well.

Regeneration :
now if you've read my previous blog you would have most certainly seen this statement
which states that except for weaker demons. all of them could regenerate even with the destruction of their bodies, names, souls, or everything. this would grant at least mid-tier demons High Godly regeneration. and naturally, people with the Sparda heritage would scale as well.

Other Abilities :
let's start with some new abilities of various low-level demons
fallen priest :
Existence Erasure and immortality type 5
Morning Banshee :
Immortality types 4 & 8 via being linked to their prey they can revive themselves even from death as long as their prey exists.
The angel of Damnation :
Curse Manipulation, Negation, and Healing
Kanigam :
Clairvoyance (Retrocognition Cosmic Awareness Precognition)

now. People with Sparda inheritance would get resistance to EE & Curse Manipulation. and Immortality negation types 4, 5 & 8 for being able to fight these demons without getting erased or cursed and for being able to kill the fallen priest & the morning banshee when she's linked to them. High tiers would get resistance to Kanigam's Precog as well

Now let's talk about Dante specifically in PoC he gets something called the book of demons. which seals its target's soul and transforms them into Data. he would gain sealing, absorption, Info analysis & Data manipulation from this. as well as another form of soul Manipulation. also people with Sparda inheritance would get resistance to it since it chooses its user based on if he's able to resist its power or not.

we've also made a sandbox on how the Demon physiology page would look after the revision. I've also restructured it to make it more readable and easier to understand the abilities

Agree : Crimson, Deadguy, storytellingdemonking, Orange, Shiva, Dalesean, lightning, Zencha, anos, Ultima, stella, stillwincon, neotengus, teezar, tony, elizhaa, nepuko,KLOL, gliver, dienomite
Disagree : hecatia,, glass, randomguy, darksmash
Neutral : comicgal , Veloxt1r0kore

@DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000

What do you think about this?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Okay. In that case it seems to make sense to me except for that High-Godly regeneration seems exaggerated. Mid-Godly should be fine though.

Can I ask why??
If its something related to names in the scan...then I'd like to notify that names are concepts of existence for individuals.
So regeneration from their destruction qualifies for High Godly.

 

[KLOL506]

@DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000

What do you think about this?

AFAIK LordGriffin was neutral.

But Ultima and Elizhaa were fine with the 9-dimensional aspect (Sevil contacted them beforehand before the CRTs were to ever be envisioned). I personally was also fine with 9-dimensional souls, which Ultima stated would be range only, not AP.

Abstractions and DarkGrath are two other knowledgeable members on DMC who are also staff, CrimsonStarFallen as well I think (Who okayed it AFAIK)

 

[Antvasima]

Can I ask why??
If its something related to names in the scan...then I'd like to notify that names are concepts of existence for individuals.
So regeneration from their destruction qualifies for High Godly.

Okay. It should probably be fine then.

 

[Antvasima]

AFAIK LordGriffin was neutral.

But Ultima and Elizhaa were fine with the 9-dimensional aspect (Sevil contacted them beforehand before the CRTs were to ever be envisioned). I personally was also fine with 9-dimensional souls, which Ultima stated would be range only, not AP.

Abstractions and DarkGrath are two other knowledgeable members on DMC who are also staff, CrimsonStarFallen as well I think (Who okayed it AFAIK)

Okay. Noted.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

What Gilver said. At the moment it's no longer the proposal and has been postponed indefinitely. As per what Ultima told us, 9-D souls would only get HDE and affecting them would only be range-based feats, it would not be AP.

Also the summary is already in the original thread's first post.

This makes sense to me

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[Theglassman12]

Anyways to summarize my points from the previous thread. The type 4 and 8 negation against the demon needs some more proof and if there exist any clips I’ll be fine with it, but as of now it doesn’t work since they can still revive as stated in the scan.

High godly regen doesn’t make much sense as I’ve explained that none of the demons have these feats shown, and have always died when their souls get destroyed, Nightmare in both 1 and 5, Griffon and phantom in 5, and Dante in 1 and 3, so the demons, and especially sparda heritage having high godly I still don’t agree with.

the souls being higher dimensional I still don’t buy considering we have way too many instances of seeing the souls in the form of devil arms and we don’t have any extra information on how this is supposed to be a thing despite them being supposedly 9-D.

 

[GrathOfLux]

Apologies for having said so little on this topic as of late. I have more free time now, so I'll try my best to look through everything and give my perspective.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Anyways to summarize my points from the previous thread. The type 4 and 8 negation against the demon needs some more proof and if there exist any clips I’ll be fine with it, but as of now it doesn’t work since they can still revive as stated in the scan.

Fodder demons are always killed off permanently by Dante in encounters...thats always been the principle. Banshee revives immediately after death as said in scan...if Dante doesn't kill her...the encounter isn't over and the game doesn't move forward. So from that alone we can conclude Dante kills off permanently if he is able to progress at all.

So I don't agree on needing video evidence...but since some folks back on server wanted it posted.......here it is.

High godly regen doesn’t make much sense as I’ve explained that none of the demons have these feats shown, and have always died when their souls get destroyed, Nightmare in both 1 and 5, Griffon and phantom in 5, and Dante in 1 and 3, so the demons, and especially sparda heritage having high godly I still don’t agree with.

Like I already explained..regen neg for Dante has always been a thing.
If any particular Demon has X regen(insert any regen) then Dante has always had capability to negate the regen.
So if they don't come back....thats obviously because of Regen Neg. Which we already accept on profile.

As for Sparda Regen, the anti-feats given also don't work.
1) Neo-Gen example is as I already explained has lore, hype and power to back its regen neg. So it being capable of permanently killing Dante in the particular M12 as long as its wielded in not an antifeat for Dante but a positive feat for Neo-Gen.

2)Sin Scythe if you take seriously is nothing but full of incredible outliers. Its soul hax is physical hit based....to assume it can even jit Dante is admitting that a fodder demon has immeasurable speed for being able to fight and kill Dante. Another outlier is soul hax potency....the only Entity who has more soul hax potency than Dante's Resistance is Sealed Mundus....a God Tier. Admitting Sin Sythe can even affect Dante's soul resistance is an outlier. We end with entire 2 fodder races with greater soul potency than God Tiers.

We end up with....
Sin/Death Scythe(Soul hax/Speed)>>>Dante/Nelo/Mundus(God Tier resistance/immeasurable speed).

This exact same logic can be extended to other demons with enemy file descriptions.
I can bring up tons of demons having outlier AP/Hax/Resistance/Speed instances with similar descriptions of hype ""can kill you" statements.
I already mentioned how these statements apply as threat to player behind the screen not characters in story.

But if we still insist on Sin Scythe statements being taken seriously.....be warned we will end up with entire fodder demon species becoming 2C AP immeasurable Speed and stronger than God Tiers at that.

I hope we wish to avoid that.

the souls being higher dimensional I still don’t buy considering we have way too many instances of seeing the souls in the form of devil arms and we don’t have any extra information on how this is supposed to be a thing despite them being supposedly 9-D.

Devil Arms are physical manifestations of demon souls....i.e they are the bodies of the souls....on that reason we accepted lowgodly regen in the past. The 9D statement applies to souls....not physical bodies.

So this doesn't even count as an arguement.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So @Tony_di_bugalu wanted to make proposal for 1C smurf hax. NOTE only 1C smurf hax.

@Theglassman12 Tony's reponse to you.

the souls being higher dimensional I still don’t buy considering we have way too many instances of seeing the souls in the form of devil arms and we don’t have any extra information on how this is supposed to be a thing despite them being supposedly 9-D.

This isn't a good argument tho, seeing higher dimensional stuff as 3D objects in fiction is quite common, a lot of "higher dimensional" shit is shown like that because 1) we can't even properly imagine 4D stuff, let alone put it into media 2) most authors don't care about the implications of what they are doing in regards of battleboarding nerds.

Now the proposal of IC smurf.

Now about souls tho...

My reasoning for actual tier 1 hax for the souls is because of this:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System_FAQ#Q:_When_are_higher_dimensions_valid.2C_then.3F

"One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc."

In our case DMC has something similar but within the same dimensional level, originally the human world was a 4D world within an infinitely larger 4D world, but after the separation they just stood as two 4D worlds. (This can also be used to propose Low 1-C Demon world btw)

My point with this is that this infinitely difference in power between 2 structures already exist and is in the same "dimensional level" while the soul, as we will see below, is stated to be in a higher dimensional existence.

"Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status. An example of this being verses such as Umineko no Naku Koro ni. However, lower-dimensional beings being stated to be "flat" in comparision to higher-dimensional aliens is not necessarily grounds for assuming the latter has infinitely more power (For reasons outlined in the answer above), and thus, such scenarios must also be analyzed case-by-case."

Before I continue let me bring the quote about the souls again "The Soul It continues to hide mysteries that humans and demons don't understand, mysteries but every human has such. A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path. It not only contains the mind and memory, but also contains all the information of the body and its ancestors since ancient times"

As the wiki says "higher D entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse explicitly defines them as being above lower dimensional ones in power and/or existential status"

We already have that with the demon world and the human world (sadly it isn't as explained as some other verses) but to our benefit the souls have even more information, they are stated to be a basic nine dimensional form (9D size already) that originates and returns to a higher dimension

Basically the soul is both a 9D form and a higher dimensional existence, which should qualify for tier 1 on its own, this of course doesn't scale to AP.

Basically Souls basic origination is beyond DW and they return to this Higher Plane of existence beyond it. Since we know Names which form the Dark Hearts of their souls were born and existed before creation of DW and even regeneration scan supports that with statement of "spawned from Primordial Chaos" and "formed by Demon World" which refers to their form/body created by embodying their own soul/name.

Also another note on HW/DW relation. HW is called a "Ray/line of Light" in the vast infinite Darkness that is Demon World. So basically there's already a comparison which highlights dimensional difference between both.
Its not just infinite...but also "line" inside "Infinite Space". So basically think of HW as a line in a 3D coordinate space. Basically DW is some sort of geometrically qualitative higher realm w.r.t to HW.

FAQ page excerpt

An example of this being verses such as Umineko no Naku Koro ni. However, lower-dimensional beings being stated to be "flat" in comparision to higher-dimensional aliens is not necessarily grounds for assuming the latter has infinitely more power (For reasons outlined in the answer above), and thus, such scenarios must also be analyzed case-by-case."

Which even hint can be used as supporting evidence provided it can be accepted.
So basically it makes DW low1C.
And support this 9D souls from higher plane.

 

[Sevil Natas]

High godly regen doesn’t make much sense as I’ve explained that none of the demons have these feats shown, and have always died when their souls get destroyed, Nightmare in both 1 and 5, Griffon and phantom in 5, and Dante in 1 and 3, so the demons, and especially sparda heritage having high godly I still don’t agree with.

this is not a sufficient argument to disregard the blatant statement demons like sid and a bunch of others die because of something way less than their soul getting destroyed, not to mention, DMC peeps have already on their profiles the ability to negate regeneration, so yeah DMC peeps can kill or be killed in a way that's enough for their regen to cover, it does not in any way mean that this invalidates their higher regeneration feats. there's some notable feats prior to the PoC statement that implies regeneration from soul destruction, mainly nelo angelo who dante was confident he killed and destroyed him (dante can see souls btw its in his page). and yet vergil still survived & regened from that encounter

the souls being higher dimensional I still don’t buy considering we have way too many instances of seeing the souls in the form of devil arms and we don’t have any extra information on how this is supposed to be a thing despite them being supposedly 9-D.

I have disproved this here

https://vsbattles.com/threads/damn-you-poc-devil-may-cry-revisions.127270/page-5#post-4304531

this argument is completely absurd on so many levels. not only is it impossible to denote the dimension of an object from the way it looks (because if a higher dimensional object were to enter our universe it will look perfectly 3D to us) but it downgrades half the verses with HDE & BDE on the wiki as almost all of them have higher dimensional objects depicted 3D visually and have 1 statement to back HDE up. now as to why higher dimensions would look 3D to us, imagine you're a 2D being, and someone whose 3D throws his hands onto your field of view, you would view those hands as 2D from your perspective. that's why souls being visually 3D is irrelevant here. as to the beings in the HW who are capable of only observing 3D things. they appear 3D to them

 

[EFÍTÉ]

YES i asked Glass for permission to comment and discuss as along i remain on topic, if anyone is doubting my word, you can ask @Theglassman12

I going to ignore dimensionality stuff since that ain't my area of knowledge,.

But the scans and logic used behind it i can talk about it, so there's some wrong points and is good to mention i not attacking @GilverTheProtoAngelo , but i attacking @Tony_di_bugalu argument, which for some reason he didn't want to comment here (which likely nulls his vote unless he returns)


To say the 9th dimension is beyond the demon world really goes against already stablished lore.

First, PoC not only states about the 9th Dimension and souls returning to said dimension, but it also states this

''spawned by the primordial chaos that preceded reality and formed by the demon world''

We can understand the Demon world is also envolved in the creation of demons, this fits perfectly if you consider the Demon world birthing around said Primordial chaos/darkness and like is stated here, the demon world becomes said primordial chaos/darkness in the second page.

And there's more, it stated multiple times that the Demon world is the home of demons
Scan 1

Scan 2

Scan 3

Scan 4

Which also goes along with demons being natural species from the demon world

Scan 1

Scan 2

Along with several other demons like Cerberus.

Not only that, but we also have scans where Humans when they die, they also return to the demon world, with specific cases where souls of humans going to specific places of the demon world depending on the sin commited before death and also when Humans dies they become demons, which also makes connection to this scan where souls returning to the demon world will turn into demons.

Not only that but V himself says this when killing demons:

Scan 1:

Scan 2:

Yes exactly what i have typed, they return to the demon world

Even game V when finishing enemies will say this

''return to the underworld'' Which again, they return to the demon world, not to some plane that exists beyond it.

From what i see, there's overwhelming proof that justifies 9th Dimension being the demon world itself or somewhere in the Demon world.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

But the scans and logic used behind it i can talk about it, so there's some wrong points and is good to mention i not attacking @GilverTheProtoAngelo , but i attacking @Tony_di_bugalu argument, which for some reason he didn't want to

Concept of votes for normal users don't even exist in staff threads.
Only arguements matter...no matter how they appear.

Neutral on the DW shenanigans.

No matter how you slice it..Primordial Chaos and Souls originating in ut becomes 1C in both scenarios....its only a question of if DW becomes 1C.

 

[Antvasima]

Apologies for having said so little on this topic as of late. I have more free time now, so I'll try my best to look through everything and give my perspective.

No problem. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Theglassman12]

@GilverTheProtoAngelo thank you now I don't have any qualms on the negation.

You also have dante attacking the soul as a common thing he does. Which again isn't something we've seen backed up in any circumstances as we've seen demons die when their souls are gone, especially when Mundus kills Griffon and he doesn't regenerate when his soul is destroyed. So there's something wrong here.

Here's the thing, we have actual statements on the weapons being able to negate the healing factor for the demons specifically given what we have for PoC, Neo Generator doesn't have that at all and again contradicts the sparda heritage characters from scaling in the first place. The only thing we ever get is it sucks your soul away, unless you want to tell me that sucking one's soul away is a regeneration negation which you need to give proof of that as opposed to it being a blatant weakness, meaning no one that's a descendant of sparda's heritage scales to begin with.

Again you're cherry picking the lore here if you're going to accept the frost demon's absolute zero stuff but ignore the Sin Scythe statements on ripping out one's soul, if you disregard the Sin Scythe statement you'd have to disregard the rest of the enemy files in 1 because you can't ignore one statement but keep the rest in the same source, especially when said statement isn't contradicted in any other mainline games. Also soul haxing has nothing to do with strength as it's literally a hax based move, not an AP move.

No they're literally stated to be their souls, not a manifestation or a body, it's literally their own soul. Again why are we accepting this as 100% fact when nothing about the lore addresses why they're 3-D objects that normal people could touch?

@Sevil Natas again we have dante being able to soul hax beings to death, and Mundus literally destroying Griffon's soul but no case of regeneration despite his soul being gone and mundus lacking regen negation so something's wrong here if we're taking this as legit.

Again why do you think I kept telling you guys to wait before we pushed this thread in the first place? Because we need more proof of this to solidify this shit. If you guys want this passed despite what I say don't blame me if you get numerous people questioning the lack of evidence to back this up when you have one random tip in a loading screen not backed up in any other point in the series.

 

[Antvasima]

@Theglassman12

So which parts of this revision do you think seem reliable to apply?

 

[Theglassman12]

The other abilities from random demons I’m fine with adding.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Please write a summary to remind the rest of us.

 

[KLOL506]

Gilver and Sevil plan to make a response to Glass's reply when they get the time.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Theglassman12]

I’ll do the summary once me, Sevil and G are done debating here. Then we’ll let the staff members decide.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you.

 

[Sevil Natas]

@Sevil Natas again we have dante being able to soul hax beings to death, and Mundus literally destroying Griffon's soul but no case of regeneration despite his soul being gone and mundus lacking regen negation so something's wrong here if we're taking this as legit.

then that would give mundus regen negation, it's not that hard to come up with solutions. you're just arguing them regening from soul destruction is a contradiction when there's no need for there to be one, this isn't anything that breaks the lore in anyway, and also by your logic nelo would've been soul haxxed and yet he still came back after his soul was destroyed by Dante, and Dante was sure he killed him (Dante can see spirits) a few vague things happening isn't proper ground to dismiss a statement from the narrator literally saying "All but the weakest demons do not care what they lose, their bodies, their names, their souls or everything, as long as they persist they can regenerate and continue fighting without rest." if we dismiss this, it'll just create unnecessary contradictions in the lore. if we could justify those. mid tier demons die because of regen neg. this is evident because sparda literally blinded beowulf in 1 eye, and he didn't regenerate despite him having mid-godly. urizen got stabbed by dante and he couldn't regenerate that wound (he didn't die btw if anyone wants to argue soul hax) and most damning of all, the fact that a random hunter can make a sword capable of nullifying regen. this is essentially creating a problem that doesn't exist to dismiss a blatant lore statement made directly by the authors.

Again why do you think I kept telling you guys to wait before we pushed this thread in the first place? Because we need more proof of this to solidify this shit. If you guys want this passed despite what I say don't blame me if you get numerous people questioning the lack of evidence to back this up when you have one random tip in a loading screen not backed up in any other point in the series.

no we dont, as those loading screen tips are pretty reliable (example : nightmare's feat, names, pluto etc.. are all pretty obsecure things in the DMC world yet Loading screen tips in PoC is pretty accurate about them). there's no need for further evidence as the statement itself is very blatant

 

[Sevil Natas]

I want to address these as well

Here's the thing, we have actual statements on the weapons being able to negate the healing factor for the demons specifically given what we have for PoC, Neo Generator doesn't have that at all and again contradicts the sparda heritage characters from scaling in the first place. The only thing we ever get is it sucks your soul away, unless you want to tell me that sucking one's soul away is a regeneration negation which you need to give proof of that as opposed to it being a blatant weakness, meaning no one that's a descendant of sparda's heritage scales to begin with.

i recall you saying sucking the soul away is destroying it yes? not some sort of sealing. how can you be so sure it doesn't have regeneration negation? if i need explicit evidence for that even though regen negation in DMC is very common with magical weapons. then where's your evidence for it bypassing Dantes soul hax resistance? because you can get a gameover from it? you can get a game over from falling debris or getting killed by fodder demons. does that happen in the actual canon lore? no it doesnt

Again you're cherry picking the lore here if you're going to accept the frost demon's absolute zero stuff but ignore the Sin Scythe statements on ripping out one's soul, if you disregard the Sin Scythe statement you'd have to disregard the rest of the enemy files in 1 because you can't ignore one statement but keep the rest in the same source, especially when said statement isn't contradicted in any other mainline games. Also soul haxing has nothing to do with strength as it's literally a hax based move, not an AP move.

Again where's the evidence for the sin scythe killing dante by ripping out his soul in the story? and what evidence is there to suggest that his soul manip can bypass dantes resistances? cus without that none and i mean none of the stuff you're suggesting happened in the actual story

No they're literally stated to be their souls, not a manifestation or a body, it's literally their own soul. Again why are we accepting this as 100% fact when nothing about the lore addresses why they're 3-D objects that normal people could touch?

yes because normal people in the real world can interact with non-physical souls just fine. also theoretically normal ppl can touch Higher-dimensional stuff. it just wouldn't significantly affect them, because the 3D being would just be touching an infinitesimal part of the higher dimensional being, but ofc the most important thing you missed here, is when? when did normal human beings ever touch souls in DMC? V? that guy's far from normal for obvious reasons

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I'll reply tomorrow morning when I get s new netpack. I sleep now. GN

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

You also have dante attacking the soul as a common thing he does. Which again isn't something we've seen backed up in any circumstances as we've seen demons die when their souls are gone, especially when Mundus kills Griffon and he doesn't regenerate when his soul is destroyed. So there's something wrong here.

Yes he has soul hax. But we are saying the regeneration negation will extend beyond just the physical body and to the soul itself. He is causing damage to the soul and it is irreparable. When the soul is destroyed it would be impossible to come back.
If Dante is causing astral damage and and opponent soul is unable to heal it...that counts as regeneration negation on godly lvl.
I already explained how if boss demons have "X regeneration" Dante has always shown same lvl of regen negation. We already have example like Cerberus and Beowulf who have exact same regen as the examples of demon you mentioned.

Also we already do accept regeneration negation for Mundus btw...he was able to grievously wound Dante in their fight which he has a lot of trouble healing from.

Here's the thing, we have actual statements on the weapons being able to negate the healing factor for the demons specifically given what we have for PoC, Neo Generator doesn't have that at all and again contradicts the sparda heritage characters from scaling in the first place. The only thing we ever get is it sucks your soul away, unless you want to tell me that sucking one's soul away is a regeneration negation which you need to give proof of that as opposed to it being a blatant weakness, meaning no one that's a descendant

I didn't understand your point at all.
The regen neg statement applies to everything of demonic nature. Random fodder demonic material can be used for enhancing weapons and able to negate regen. Thats something demon hunters have been doing since whenever demon hunting profession started.
I don't know why this would only apply to PoC when the statement is direct lore fact for entire series.
Neo Generator is a demonic object, and not any ordinary material at that. Its got a good amount of justified hype and lore for it.
Also as far as sucking away the soul is concerned...we already knows it does so overtime(not that it would be a problem if it was just a soul rip) which means its sucking off the soul piecemeal causing damage on the soul itself. We have soul damage and regen neg statement for demonic material. So everything checks out.
Also the soul damage is represented by dwindling health...and when Dante is outside the influence of Generator he can just undo all the soul damage.

Again you're cherry picking the lore here if you're going to accept the frost demon's absolute zero stuff but ignore the Sin Scythe statements on ripping out one's soul, if you disregard the Sin Scythe statement you'd have to disregard the rest of the enemy files in 1 because you can't ignore one statement but keep the rest in the same source, especially when said statement isn't contradicted in any other mainline games. Also soul haxing has nothing to do with strength as it's literally a hax based move, not an AP move.

Then you didn't understand at all.
I never said disregard the lore. Read my comment again. I never denied demons having lore about having X,Y, Z hax/ability is wrong.
I said you insisting that fodders have hax potency to bypass and affect resistance layer that Dante has is an glaring outlier. When you claim that a fodder has so much potency that he ignores so many layers of resistance that even demon gods wouldn't bypass it becomes a big issue.
Unnecessary at that when ""can kill"" statements are meant for players...not character. Do you seriously believe a fodder can kill Dante??
Being able identify what is lore and what is gameplay hints/instructions is very important.

Lets take you Frost example. We have lore statement for Absolute Zero for Frost. But we also have lore statements and feats of demons being completely unaffected by King Cerberus's Absolute Zero rooms.
We also have feats of Frosts unable to affect other demons which checks out with given lore and feats.
But still in game Protagonist gets frozen...even though they have feats and statements of not being affected at all.
Blatantly showing that character getting frozen is gameplay...not lore. In lore the character wouldn't get frozen in the first place.

Here's another example from DMC2.

Why does the file tell Dante to use ""constant gunfire" and "elaborate melee attacks" to damage Golem when he can easily one shot it's ass with soul hax or cause irreparable damage to its body with any of his attacks??
You know cuz gameplay can't represent soul hax and regen neg for player. Its impossible. Do you really think this "constant gunfire" count as anti-feat now?? That will only happen if you take this gameplay tactic statement seriously.

No they're literally stated to be their souls, not a manifestation or a body, it's literally their own soul. Again why are we accepting this as 100% fact when nothing about the lore addresses why they're 3-D objects that normal people could touch?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dmc-regeneration-possible-update.120235/

Demons are beings capable of becoming Devil Arms by either crushing them and gaining power over them or becoming friends with them. (Becoming a devil arm is a way for demons to survive in battle against stronger opponents but it forces them into servitude as they lack the power to fight back the one who defeated them, if a demon gets enough power to fight back then they will reform their original body and challenge their master once again. In the case of the series the devil arms we know of are incapable of that in any way since most if not all server under Dante's command.)

What exactly is a Devil Arm? As the scan above said (if you read it) is the manifestation of a devil's power or soul taking a physical form. Some Devil Arms are born like that while others are created from existing demons (and all of them are conscious beings) and by the time of DMC5 we come to learn they are able to reform their bodies from this state again with one example being Balrog who recognized Dante's power and decided to become his servant to become stronger and when he does he will challenge Dante to a fight again. This is unlike the lesser demons who need to posses nearby materials to create bodies as their power is too great they will end up corrupting and destroying their vessels. Basically High Ranking Demons are able to become Devil Arms (their souls taking a physical form) and from that creating their bodies again (from a physical manifestation of their souls back to their own bodies).

Both body and weapon are physical manifestations of demon soul.
Only difference between them is that one is body and one is weapon. Both physical.
Soul is inside the body/weapon.

 

[Deadguy]

Okay I got a permission from glass to be able to comment here and I address glass argument against high godly regeneration

So the argument that demons need their soul to survive which is wrong because in dmc5 novel before the nightmare states that demons can exist as a consciousness and well you could argue they send their soul as well but you need evidence for that since the quote was pretty clear with itself and in a verse that differentiates a soul and a mind so in another words the just separate their mind from themselves and move on only with it



And there are feats to proof that they can regenerate from the destruction of soul a good example is from nero in dmc4 (who is btw no God tier in the verse at that point) is capable of regenerating after getting his body and soul melted down by the savior heck he himself mentions how he started to get his consciousness and memories back when he is recovering which is stated to be contained inside the soul



And before anyone mentions that of the other demons that is melted inside the savior they are just low tier demons as the scan itself states "all demons but the weakest" which clearly referring it to them and I only used them before just to proof that demons that demons don't need souls to survive not that they can regenerate from getting all their aspects of their being destroyed

And so there is nelo angelo and mundus both of them getting destroyed by dante(who can can effect them of every aspects of their being)are still capable of regenerating back



As griffon point it's just means that mundus have regeneration negation on that level which consistent as when mundus throwed few projectiles at dante who not only have the same regeneration level as griffon but even have layers of resistance to regeneration negation and it clearly harmed dante plus he was pretty confident that he can kill dante

As for sin scythe as gilver and sevil mentioned it will make you arguing for a fodder demon soul hax > the god tiers and demon world soul hax which is not supported by the lore in any form or way and it will considered an outlier that's plus the fact lore wise dante doesn't consider most demons to be a thread to him in the slightest

 

[Deadguy]

And I also like to add self sustenance type 3 for demons on this thread since this statement also comes from scan that's talks about demons regeneration

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So the argument that demons need their soul to survive is wrong because in dmc5 novel before the nightmare that demons can exist as a consciousness and well you could argue they send their soul as well you need evidence for that since the quote was pretty clear with itself and in a verse that differentiates a soul and a mind so in another words the just separate their

Just a correction on this.
Soul and consciousness of demons mean the same thing. We have lot of explicit evidence on demon souls coming to human realm.
With BtNs consciousness statement we already considered them one and the same few months ago.
New PoC statements about memory/mind/info being contained inside soul is just official confirmation of this trait.
So they aren't different.

Rest if good.

 

[Deadguy]

Just a correction on this.
Soul and consciousness of demons mean the same thing. We have lot of explicit evidence on demon souls coming to human realm.
With BtNs consciousness statement we already considered them one and the same few months ago.
New PoC statements about memory/mind/info being contained inside soul is just official confirmation of this trait.
So they aren't different.

Rest if good.

I mean they could just separate it from their souls but if it's accepted here to be like that then I guess I'll drop that argument

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?