DMC Downgrade #2: Hax Edition

[Dargoo_Faust]

but Chen definily did neg dante's regen.
And no Earl, one of Dante first moves is to break Chen's leg and Chen retaliates with breaking Dante's arm, so is impossible to dante regen already be taxed.

My question is more to what points that out as regen negation (there should be an explanation that Chen was doing something to bypass whatever regenerative abilities Dante had) as opposed to there just being inconsistencies as to how well Dante regenerates. I feel like it's fair to say that DmC has high and low ends for its various feats, and it'd not outlandish to say that the same applies to regenerative ability.

That said.

Characters with high levels of regeneration do often suffer from having a limited stamina pool in fiction. Doesn't mean that they stop regenerating at a point, it just means they can't fight endlessly. It's not really an anti-feat for regen or a showcasing of regen negation if a character becomes tired despite them being able to pull off stuff like regrowing arms.

Dante regen isnt impressive when he isnt powerfull, even after the final fight wih Gilver he still didnt recover entirely yet, like Gilver at this point broke Dante's leg, thighs and more, if Gilver destroyed is heart, Dante would die.

I'm not really sure I understand what's being proven here - isn't this exactly what Earl is claiming with regen, that Dante stops regenerating under certain circumstances such as being harmed greatly over a short period of time?

Apologies if I'm being slow on the uptake with this one.

But Dante's heart isnt a true weakness, when Alastor states this, and aims at Dante's heart and Dante does some show off (time stamp: 4:03)

First scan didn't really explain it to me but the video did, thanks. That should work for a heart regeneration feat, for sure.

Granted, isn't the weakness the removal of Dante's heart, not damaging it in general?

Not lying here, this feat either is true or just absorption to be true. Nero also did lost his weapons there and only having yamato that as launched to him by dante. Considering how Yamato interacts with Nero, and Nero on the novel had to use some magic knife (which he does create when he have Yamato), to create some space and grab yamato to leave from Savior's heart. You can check the cutscene (time stamp: 18:50).

I'd rather say that it chalks up to Nero's resistance to Absorption, something already on his profile. Low-High is very much beyond any other feats we've seen from him and we have far more reason to believe that he just resisted the effects of Savior's absorbing abilities.

 

[Thehunter077]

Damn, dont know this were unlocked

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Anyway @Dargoo_Faust about the reason why i say that the more they get damaged the more their regen weakens is. In the first fight between Dante and Vergil. These guys have no trouble regening at the beginning of the fight, however after the fight ends and these guys have stabbed and sliced each-other several times. This happens:
Bit of context, dante was stabbed through the chest in that fight. After he gets up, transforms into a demon then back into a human. We see no wound on his chest, and the ground below is clean, but as soon as he falls into the ground the ground starts to get tainted in blood. Showing that the fact that they show no wound doesn't mean there is none (might be a designer choice, maybe they just forgot idk).
In the 2nd fight a similar thing happens. After having cleanly hit themselves multiple times, they slice themselves in the chest, the bad guy comes in showing how he's made a fool out of everybody and everyone played in the palm of his hand, but Dante then is shown again on screen, no signs of wound anywhere but he is holding his flank (clearly implying he is damaged) and even has trouble walking no more than 5 seconds later after that scene. And clearly physical stamina wasn't an issue as he was flying around fighting vergil 5 seconds ago, but he took more and more damage after that. Jester proceeds to say how Vergil has taken quite a trouncing (more proof of it being just a case of having taken a ton of damage), then after more blah blah about his plan Dante interrupts him and proceeds to attack him, but Jester says "You are wounded and weak". Again outright stating that they are currently damaged. Even though if their regen were at peak form from beginning to the end they wouldn't have been wounded.
Another scene saying the same thing is in DMC5 after a battle with Urizen, Vergil tells Dante "Heal your wounds Dante". Clearly implying he is wounded in that scene.

And if there is one thing we know is that there is no other characters in the series that can push Vergil and Dante to their limits more than each-other.

Dargoo said he agrees with this btw.

 

[LordGinSama]

So what's the the general consensus here? Have we finished the Deconstruction bit?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So what's the the general consensus here? Have we finished the Deconstruction bit?

Well, I haven't commented on that yet, however I did reject Low-High regeneration and the various arguments for regeneration negation, at least pending further debate. I also accepted a part of, but not entirely, one of Earl's regen arguments.

I have some more to say on Deconstruction - I think the evidence that proves it is problematic, however before I comment meaningfully can someone please give me the current pool of evidence provided on the thread that supports it in a summary? That can help me get out an evaluation much faster.

@Firephoenixearl

While I still disagree with the notion that the potency of their regeneration weakening over time (The wouldn't go down from Mid to something like Low-Mid or High-Low after regenerating a given amount of times), I do think it was sufficiently proven that their regenerative speed slows after they use their regeneration a given number of times.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

The speed slows ? Vergil was cut in half and regenerated fast enough to avoid being separated, and he was very tired at that moment

Tho it seems to be a bit inconsistent in the series, sometimes it takes time, sometimes it's instant

I have some more to say on Deconstruction - I think the evidence that proves it is problematic, however before I comment meaningfully can someone please give me the current pool of evidence provided on the thread that supports it in a summary? That can help me get out an evaluation much faster.

@Dargoo_Faust

Scan 1

Scan 2

Scan 3

Scan 4

Scan 5

Scan 6

Those are the deconstruction feat, I hope you don't mind the amount of them, but I believe it's better with the context

Btw I'm not saying I agree with this hax, just showing the main (?) feat

 

[Mister6ame6]

About the Low-High regeneration they mention in the game that his body is going to be melted too and the absorption is because the Savior absorbs you inside before melting the body

And Nero don't resist absorption, only life force absorption

 

[EFÍTÉ]

Just to Summ up.
Earl is fine with sound resistance staying (it needed to be stated dante resisted going deaf).
Appears Earl isnt touching Void Mundus immortality anymore.
The supporters on a discord talk agreeded with descontruction going away.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Earl is fine with sound resistance staying (it needed to be stated dante resisted going deaf).

I don't think anyone ever posted proof of her sound being enough to make people go deaf tho...

Appears Earl isnt touching Void Mundus immortality anymore.

I never touched it actually, i just won't touch it in this thread.

The supporters on a discord talk agreeded with descontruction going away.

Das nice.

 

[EFÍTÉ]

I don't think anyone ever posted proof of her sound being enough to make people go deaf tho...

I did post actually, and you did agree.
Scan one

Scan two

Beryl as to cover her ears or she goes deaf.

EFÍTÉ said:
I can see where you going, but considering there is another Sound manipulation feat on the novel vol 2 where Berly gets affected and Dante isnt, it does falls into being resistance to sound manipulation.

Oh, that sounds fair. Although needs to be said on the profile that he is just more tolerant to loud noises (doesn't get deafened). Although it could be attributed to regen, but eh no big deal, it can stay.

Here you agreeing with me.

I never touched it actually, i just won't touch it in this thread.

Fair enought :v

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ah yes fair, i forgot. Imma edit the OP.

 

[LordGinSama]

I still have yet to see how and why normal timeline Mundus would have the same powers and abilities as Void Mundus, not that i doubt the legitimacy of the scaling but currently there's no elaboration as to why they're scaled to onto another when they're alternative versions of each other, I.E different.



Anyone got a scan or citation?

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

how and why normal timeline Mundus would have the same powers and abilities as Void Mundus

I'm not really following the discussion in this thread, but I don't think that's the case. Maybe you got the other way around. If that's so, then I understand

 

[Sevil Natas]

4) Resistance to Mind Manipulation. Demon world energy, i went over it before with the whole "human" and "demon".

actually this doesnt even apply to the corruption argument. the whole idea is that dante is already a demon therefore he cant be turned into one (which is wrong as i explained above)
since you agree with the resistance to madness & disease manip, you should agree with this. because the affects of the demon world still affect dante.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

since you agree with the resistance to madness & disease manip, you should agree with this. because the affects of the demon world still affect dante.

Not all, as i said, they turn you into sth dante already is.

 

[LordGinSama]

Also I have some doubts on Mundus being an empty void.

It's quite literally stated that the void isn't actually empty and Dante previously had no abilities that would allow him to interact with a void, and the void here is odd given you can attack it by attacking the darkness, creating cracks in the space itself, etc. There's a lot of pshycial properties happening here that wouldn't happen in a typical void, and it's not empty like a true void.

 

[Sevil Natas]

dante isnt insane. nor is his mind warped

 

[Sevil Natas]

Also I have some doubts on Mundus being an empty void.

It's quite literally stated that the void isn't actually empty

pretty sure that statement was just to let us know that mundus was the void, not that its literally not empty. look at the context behind the statement "the void wasn't empty,The void was the king himself"

 

[LordGinSama]

Meaning it's not actually empty? Not to mention the physical shit going on, sufficient spatial manipulation seems to be able to interact with Mundus just fine.


Even the way Mundus actually dies implies that the Void isn't your standard void, once a fissure or crack is made in the space in said void you can interact with him just fine as seen with Dante shot into the crack in order to kill Mundus. Last I recall a void doesn't blow up, have vibrations or light inside it, the darkness doesn't seem like it was intangible either. There's also air inside it, I.E it's not a true empty void that has nothing in it.

 

[Sevil Natas]

okay first how is it not actually empty? that needs to be specified. cause right now, it sounds that the statement was just trying to infrom us that mundus was actually the void, also when did dante use spatial manip to defeat him? it was never stated lol, thats just dante interacting with a non existant being.
also mundus is a void. void by definition is empty space or nothingness.

 

[LordGinSama]

okay first how is it not actually empty? that needs to be specified. cause right now, it sounds that the statement was just trying to infrom us that mundus was actually the void, also when did dante use spatial manip to defeat him? it was never stated lol, thats just dante interacting with a non existant being.

We're given a literal statement that it isn't empty, Mundus himself is the enitre void ( which A isn't stated to be infinite and B showcases various pshycial properties. ) you need to prove that it's empty, it's your job to provide citation to prove a positive. Are there any statements that the Void is empty? Because there's clearly air inside, light and other shit in it.





Ebony and Ivory caused a crack in the space of the void to happen, and then shot into the crack which had light hidden away. Vibrations happen, they can all breath normally, there's air present and it isn't infinite in size, I.E not a true void.




Refer to our Void page "Empty space and black holes are not examples of a void as they possess energy and exist in the conventional sense. Manipulating either is Spatial Manipulation and Black Hole Creation respectively." there's clearly shit present in this "void" contains light, air, etc. This isn't a true void and shouldn't be treated as such, as there's evidence to suggest the void isn't empty meanwhile there's nothing stating it's an infinite void of nothing.

 

[Sevil Natas]

We're given a literal statement that it isn't empty, Mundus himself is the enitre void ( which A isn't stated to be infinite and B showcases various pshycial properties. ) you need to prove that it's empty, it's your job to provide citation to prove a positive. Are there any statements that the Void is empty? Because there's clearly air inside, light and other shit in it.





Ebony and Ivory caused a crack in the space of the void to happen, and then shot into the crack which had light hidden away. Vibrations happen, they can all breath normally, there's air present and it isn't infinite in size, I.E not a true void.

i already said that the statement was referring to the fact that the void was mundus. & no that doesnt mean anything since mundus is the void & again void by definition is empty space, nothingness etc.... the air, the light all that bs doesnt matter its not him, mundus is only the void. not the air & the light. also when did true voids needed to be infinite in size, there's no such standard afaik. and no there needs to be statement that any of damage caused by ebony & ivory was spatial manip.

 

[LordGinSama]

And said void isn't empty, which is my point here.




It doesn't matter if Mundus is only the void, there's still shit present in the void, meaning it's not empty because there's still pshycial shit inside of him and in the void. No matter how you wanna cut it, it isn't empty.



A true void is both infinite in size and void of time. Dante and Mundus obviously don't have immeasurable speed, time clearly still flows and there's things inside the void that is Mundus.




Spatial hax doesn't need to be stated, several characters on the wiki have it just for slashing apart space. Which is exactly what he did here, cuts at the darkness and opens up a fissure in the space, meaning what he cut was space. I.E Spatial manipulation.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Im just gonna say, Mundus is stated to be the nexus of the void, but being the nexus of void energy isn't equal to being the same as void energy. Similar to how embodying something doesn't mean you're the same type of existence.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Not all, as i said, they turn you into sth dante already is.

it was stated that the demon world warps the minds of men, how is this related to dante already being a demon? if he resists madness & disease manip then he should resist this.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

it was stated that the demon world warps the minds of men, how is this related to dante already being a demon? if he resists madness & disease manip then he should resist this.

Yes the minds of men....

 

[Sevil Natas]

if you think because it says "the minds of men" it doesnt affect him then you're wrong. it does because we saw the affects of demon world affect dante before I.E disease & madness manip. he just resists as he did with the other affects, also your argument with corruption type 3 isnt that its that dante is already a demon so he cant be affected. to further prove my point here
griffon & other demon rebels got affected by demonic energy when they got close to the underworld's nexus.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You still bring up the disease stuff even though that's not what im arguing.

Although if we can deduce which of those effects the demons were affected by in that scan that would be a good proof. They still didn't get "turned into demons" because they already are, even though the energy was overwhelming them.

 

[Sevil Natas]

You still bring up the disease stuff even though that's not what im arguing.

Although if we can deduce which of those effects the demons were affected by in that scan that would be a good proof. They still didn't get "turned into demons" because they already are, even though the energy was overwhelming them.

so what are you arguing? you're saying that dante doesnt get affected by the demon worlds hax because he's a demon yet he did get affected in Vol1. therefore his resistance to mind manip stays as there is no reason for some hax to affect him & others dont

 

[Firephoenixearl]

therefore his resistance to mind manip stays as there is no reason for some hax to affect him & others dont

Except there is. Cus some hax like corruption and soul hax do not affect him cus he is already affected. They turn you into a demon and he already is. He ain't becoming demon+.

The mind hax is similarly stated to affect only humans.

As for the "why only some affect them and some don't?" argument that's pretty bad considering we KNOW that there are several things like the beastheads that specifically replenish demons instead of affecting them negatively. Similarly even in the scan you posted Beryl was suffering in there whereas Griffon was being replenished by going into the demon world.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Except there is. Cus some hax like corruption and soul hax do not affect him cus he is already affected. They turn you into a demon and he already is. He ain't becoming demon+.

The mind hax is similarly stated to affect only humans.

As for the "why only some affect them and some don't?" argument that's pretty bad considering we KNOW that there are several things like the beastheads that specifically replenish demons instead of affecting them negatively. Similarly even in the scan you posted Beryl was suffering in there whereas Griffon was being replenished by going into the demon world.

that is the beastheads. we're talking about demonic energy here & the corruption resistance i already proved above you might wanna respond to that. but whatever
and no it wasnt stated to affect only humans "the demon world can warp the minds of men" this statement refers to the fact that demonic energy is able to warp the minds of men not that it only affects men, this has nothing to do with what it can & cannot affect. also where was it stated that the demon world replanished griffon in my scan?
also in Vol1 dante was getting affected by some sort of mind hax or illusions as well.
the scan

 

[Firephoenixearl]

the corruption resistance i already proved above you might wanna respond to that

You really didn't prove corruption, griffon wasn't getting corrupted there.

"the demon world can warp the minds of men"

It says what it does, the rest is never even stated or implied. So i don't get your point.

also where was it stated that the demon world replanished griffon in my scan?

Sry it wasn't in your scan it was in another scan on the profile. Here: https://prnt.sc/neld6b

also in Vol1 dante was getting affected by some sort of mind hax or illusions as well.

That's just the nausea.

 

[Sevil Natas]

You really didn't prove corruption, griffon wasn't getting corrupted there.

i was referring to this :

first of all why would chen referring to dante as a "demon" somehow makes the air not affect his human side? you kinda ignored my point there. the air doesnt care about what counts as demon and what doesnt. it just corrupts humans' flesh & mind thats it. another proof of them having resistence is V. he's the human side of vergil, and he didnt get affected by demonic air. he should just count as a human yet he didnt get affected. and there's no reason for his resistance to suddenly have vanished when he fused back into Vergil. the same should be true for Dante and other hybrids.
second. though they are considered demons, they're techincally not like other demons not one bit. they seem to be mindless ants whose phisology differ from other demons. not to mention that demons have different species and considering how the higher tier demons dont turn into mindless creatures they should be naturaly resistent to it.

It says what it does, the rest is never even stated or implied. So i don't get your point.

my point is that its illogical to assume it only affects humans when it was never stated that it affects only humans

Sry it wasn't in your scan it was in another scan on the profile. Here: https://prnt.sc/neld6b

okay. but although it states that it replanishes their demonic power it could still negatively affect them, as it did when they got too close to the heart

That's just the nausea.

pretty sure that hearing voices & Hallucination isnt symptoms of nausea
.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The second argument is pretty bad i won't even bother with that. The 1st one with V though seems fairly convincing, i guess that would work.

my point is that its illogical to assume it only affects humans when it was never stated that it affects only humans

It did only mention affecting humans so...

okay. but although it states that it replanishes their demonic power it could still negatively affect them, as it did when they got too close to the heart

Don't think you can be replenished by something but negatively affected too.

pretty sure that hearing voices & Hallucination isnt symptoms of nausea

Depending on the level they should be.

 

[Sevil Natas]

The second argument is pretty bad i won't even bother with that. The 1st one with V though seems fairly convincing, i guess that would work.

okay fair enough.

Don't think you can be replenished by something but negatively affected too.

yes you could. ever heard of side effects? water is good for you but if you drink too much of it, it may even kill you.

Depending on the level they should be.

i dont know i did a quick research on that. didnt find anything about nausea making you Hallucinate. usually mental disorders lead to that.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

i dont know i did a quick research on that. didnt find anything about nausea making you Hallucinate. usually mental disorders lead to that.

This is fiction, people start hallucinating from fear of other people.

 

[00potato]

This is fiction, people start hallucinating from fear of other people.
Bruh. That isn’t a fact or even consistent. Fiction doesn’t scale to unrelated fiction. Where did you pull that out from? It doesn’t happen in real life and you need to prove it would happen to Donte.

 

[Sevil Natas]

ok then why are you assuming its nausea if it wasnt even stated that the illusions were caused by them?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It's because the mind effects of the demon world include falling into despair (as happened with beryl), not really illusions.

 

[00potato]

Where are you getting that assertion from?