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What in game showings aren't enough? It's only their claws that have AZ temperatures not every single ability they have.
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DMC 1-3 revisions
- Thread starter Theglassman12
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@RebubleUselet
I'm unfamiliar with Sub-Zero's AZ reasoning and all I know is that Ifrit being able to affect Frosts doesn't disprove AZ.All I was told is that the in-game showings weren't enough.
I'm unfamiliar with Sub-Zero's AZ reasoning and all I know is that Ifrit being able to affect Frosts doesn't disprove AZ.All I was told is that the in-game showings weren't enough.
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Neutral on this, but Sub Zero scales from Bi-Han who apparently has an AZ featRebubleUselet said:
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Well I call bullshit, since it meets both main requirements, and doesn't have anything that would disprove it.Dienomite22 said:
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How cold would freezing someone in mid air with no connection to ground be? Because the Baphomets in 5 do that though it sounds unquantifiable temperture wise
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I am still unsure about soul manipulation/absorption. DMC 5 BTN stated that demons are changing into Devil Arms on their own. It's not Vergil's nor Dante's unique ability.
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Yeah, don't think they should have soul absorb
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And what about everything else?
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ugh, forgot a couple other abilities for Dante.
DMC 3 Dante should have accelerated development due to when he was basically in a beatened state he was capable of unlocking his devil trigger form, and when he's near defeat in DMC 2 he's capable of unlocking his majin form.
DMC 1 Dante should have summoning since his sparda devil trigger allows him to summon a giant fire snake dragon thing that he uses against mundus.
DMC 3 Dante should have accelerated development due to when he was basically in a beatened state he was capable of unlocking his devil trigger form, and when he's near defeat in DMC 2 he's capable of unlocking his majin form.
DMC 1 Dante should have summoning since his sparda devil trigger allows him to summon a giant fire snake dragon thing that he uses against mundus.
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I suppose DMC5 BTN did retcon that Devil Arms issue, though I don't think Beowulf or the DMC4 bosses wanted to accomidate Vergil and Dante, respectively. I guess that it's more automatic than voluntary? Might be a case for Red Orbs being the result of soul absorb, but I dunno 'bout that.
I have no strong feelings about the matter, but I don't think the wiki is using a consistent standard for determining AZ feats. You fellows are right that it's just the claws that are AZ, not the fire-vulnerable main body, and the supernatural "higher incendiary" of hellfire is used to counter them, anyway. Well, actually, Frost claws are "below AZ," which is bizarre and physically impossible IRL, but I don't see how a demon king who creates pocket dimensions and warps space and time and whatnot can't go breaking the laws of thermodynamics by making a contradictory being like this, too. Is it that much more natural and sensible that we have character running around using "normal AZ" techniques, but a demon type created by a Universal space-time warper using stuff defying thermodynamics is just too weird? The wiki doesn't have much precedent for "below AZ" feats aside from some Saint Seiya stuff, but most of the AZ users on the wiki don't really have any feats relating very specifically to the science at hand. Heck, at least DMC says that the Frosts can manipulate themselves on a molecular level; that's more than most AZ users detail. So we could either say statements aren't enough (and downgrade other verses), or we could say statements are enough so long as nothing actively contradicts them.
If you agree that there's a case for AZ here, go for it; just be ready to make a case that DMC fits the standards we've used for other verses by comparing the data we've used to approve the latter to the data we have for the former. Anyway, good OP, and I mainly align with Killah's posts. Glad you liked the games, Glass!
I have no strong feelings about the matter, but I don't think the wiki is using a consistent standard for determining AZ feats. You fellows are right that it's just the claws that are AZ, not the fire-vulnerable main body, and the supernatural "higher incendiary" of hellfire is used to counter them, anyway. Well, actually, Frost claws are "below AZ," which is bizarre and physically impossible IRL, but I don't see how a demon king who creates pocket dimensions and warps space and time and whatnot can't go breaking the laws of thermodynamics by making a contradictory being like this, too. Is it that much more natural and sensible that we have character running around using "normal AZ" techniques, but a demon type created by a Universal space-time warper using stuff defying thermodynamics is just too weird? The wiki doesn't have much precedent for "below AZ" feats aside from some Saint Seiya stuff, but most of the AZ users on the wiki don't really have any feats relating very specifically to the science at hand. Heck, at least DMC says that the Frosts can manipulate themselves on a molecular level; that's more than most AZ users detail. So we could either say statements aren't enough (and downgrade other verses), or we could say statements are enough so long as nothing actively contradicts them.
If you agree that there's a case for AZ here, go for it; just be ready to make a case that DMC fits the standards we've used for other verses by comparing the data we've used to approve the latter to the data we have for the former. Anyway, good OP, and I mainly align with Killah's posts. Glad you liked the games, Glass!
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@Freeman There is again that statement on any victim who gets struck by the claws die without feeling any pain. There seems to be more proof for AZ than others. And the only thing that can melt AZ is higher realms of incendiary, and they reference Ifrit's hellfire, can melt the ice. If it was normal fire that could melt it then yeah it would be contradictory, but I don't see how something as otherworldly as Hellfire would contradict AZ ice.
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I agree basically with everything
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@Glass -- Well, normal ice at a sufficiently low temperature can negate nervous senses, too, but I get what you mean about there being no internal contradictions. Again, maybe we should say no to this (and a whole buncha other verses) for not going far enough into the nitty-gritty of details and specifics, as it were, but I say our current standards accept this. Bit busy IRL, so I'll leave you fellows to compare this to less-substantiated feats we have accepted, if this is still challenged.
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@Theglassman12
Devil May Cry, Enemy File — Frost: "Although impervious even to volcanic fire, the frosts are weak to higher realms of incendiary. Use the hellfire of Ifrit to counter them."
The bolded part is what apparently debunks AZ because it's taken as "anything superior to volcanic fire can melt the Frosts which means it's not AZ"even though the Frosts claws are AZ and not base Frosts themselves.
Devil May Cry, Enemy File — Frost: "Although impervious even to volcanic fire, the frosts are weak to higher realms of incendiary. Use the hellfire of Ifrit to counter them."
The bolded part is what apparently debunks AZ because it's taken as "anything superior to volcanic fire can melt the Frosts which means it's not AZ"even though the Frosts claws are AZ and not base Frosts themselves.
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Did no one even read the part where they mentioned Higher realms of incendiary or use the Hellfire of ifrit to counter them when they were against AZ and were using that line?
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They did but Hellfire is taken as "just being hotter than a volcano" (I pretty sure that is what exactly was said as an argument/point too)
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I don't see how that's an argument. That's like saying Absolute Zero "is just being colder than ice".
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I tried posting this a bit ago, but I think Wikia just ate my comment and didn't let it show. Anyway, here's a comparison:
"Not even a million tons of TNT can harm this ghost."
"Well, that doesn't mean the ghost is intangible; maybe a million-and-one tons could harm him!"
I think it's safe to say that there's no internal contradictions in a form of fire inheriently connoted to be of supernatural nature being able to damage a form of ice that also defys natural thermodynamics. It isn't even scientific devices or conventional superpowers doing all this; it's literally supernatural magic in a series where supernatural magic frequently performs impossible feats at the expense of the laws of physics..
"Not even a million tons of TNT can harm this ghost."
"Well, that doesn't mean the ghost is intangible; maybe a million-and-one tons could harm him!"
I think it's safe to say that there's no internal contradictions in a form of fire inheriently connoted to be of supernatural nature being able to damage a form of ice that also defys natural thermodynamics. It isn't even scientific devices or conventional superpowers doing all this; it's literally supernatural magic in a series where supernatural magic frequently performs impossible feats at the expense of the laws of physics..
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I recall there being some line from a source I can't remember that flat out said "for a Nephilim, the laws of physics are just recommendations"
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Seems like we as a wiki have a major misunderstanding of what AZ entails, to be fair, and are under the impression it's some absolute temperature that requires the hottest stuff imaginable to counter.
If a character cooled a candle down to AZ temperatures, you could light another candle on fire and press it against the AZ one and it would be able to heat it up back to relatively normal temperatures quite easily.
It shouldn't even be the hax that we proclaim it to be, IMO, but that's for another thread.
If a character cooled a candle down to AZ temperatures, you could light another candle on fire and press it against the AZ one and it would be able to heat it up back to relatively normal temperatures quite easily.
It shouldn't even be the hax that we proclaim it to be, IMO, but that's for another thread.
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@Freeman copy your posts before you actually post in case that happens again.
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@Kep -- Correct, AZ isn't just really cold ice; it's a particle state with some very specific conditions due to the toal absence of temperature.We're saying Hellfire could have a counter property not due to being "really hot" but rather having supernatural traits, thereby resulting in no internal contradictions in the lore. The matter may have external contradictions against our standards, but I don't think we have very high standards for accepting these AZ feats in other verses.
I guess this is the point where we discuss those standards. Or would it be better to finish up with these other abilities before opening that can of worms? Yeah, prolly best to finish up with those, then look through our AZ feat standards comprehensively another day on another thread, if there's still controversy over this feat in DMC. No rush; not gonna kill anyone to keep the ability off the profile, and there've been lots of these DMC threads lately, anyway.
@Glass -- I usually type posts in Notepad and then copy-paste them, but I didn't do so this time so it had to mess up this time. Very impractical Probability Manipulation.
I guess this is the point where we discuss those standards. Or would it be better to finish up with these other abilities before opening that can of worms? Yeah, prolly best to finish up with those, then look through our AZ feat standards comprehensively another day on another thread, if there's still controversy over this feat in DMC. No rush; not gonna kill anyone to keep the ability off the profile, and there've been lots of these DMC threads lately, anyway.
@Glass -- I usually type posts in Notepad and then copy-paste them, but I didn't do so this time so it had to mess up this time. Very impractical Probability Manipulation.
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It doesn't quite work like that.
If someone threw an Absolute Zero baseball at you (assuming it were possible just for a sec), and you threw a lava-temperature baseball back at it, chances are they would cancel each other out. Nevermind anything insanely hotter.
If someone threw an Absolute Zero baseball at you (assuming it were possible just for a sec), and you threw a lava-temperature baseball back at it, chances are they would cancel each other out. Nevermind anything insanely hotter.
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Well if you throw an AZ baseball at someone the molecules would actually start to move the instant you do that so it will no longer be an AZ baseball.
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Like I said, assuming it were possible. But that's kind of semantics, since reaching Absolute Zero is as impossible as reaching the speed of light.
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@Kep -- I mean, we have weird and proably inaccurate standards in terms of what the AZ thing itself does, but you're right in how heat would affect it, I think.
I will have to try throwing lava-baseballs back at all these people throwing baseballs and other things at me IRL, though. Good advice!
I will have to try throwing lava-baseballs back at all these people throwing baseballs and other things at me IRL, though. Good advice!
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Not exactly what I'd like to talk it here as it would be better on the main discussion thread but the Frost thing happened in DMC1 right?
If so, Dante got some potent ice resistance if this ever gets passed lol
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Yeah I know. I was just pointing out the absurdity of trying to get into details in stuff like AZ, because in fiction physics don't really care about it. You can't have an AZ object in real life unless everything is AZ around it.
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yes and DMC4 but that doesn't matter right nowQliphoth Bacikal said:
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@Qliphoth yes it's in DMC 1.
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Yeah, let's worry about the rest of the stuff, then wait another day for AZ stuff (preferably with a comprehensive examination of other AZ feats accepted by the wiki). I'm going mainly off Dante Demon Killah's big post, since I share his same reasons for what he agrees and disagrees with. I won't bother quoting it, so as to save space; you can scroll up a bit. Any objections to that line of reasoning?
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Ah.
Yeah the AZ stuff seems like a really big topic to talk about another time. As for everything else that's accepted, especially the resistances AND adding scans/links/whatever to it, that should be settled with first.
Yeah the AZ stuff seems like a really big topic to talk about another time. As for everything else that's accepted, especially the resistances AND adding scans/links/whatever to it, that should be settled with first.
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I also have one other suggestion, and that's mostly with Dante's DT stuff. Could we move all of his DT forms into the technique sections where his DMC 3, 1 and 2 DT forms are since they pretty much make the read through on mobile a bit easier to read than normal?
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DMC characters have a lot of tabs. While we're at that shouldn't we do them starting from youngest to oldest like other profiles? And we should probably remove the spoiler sentence, I mean the game has been out for a good while.
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^ I agree with all of this
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@Theglassman12 and Ogbunabali
I don't see why not, it'll help out mobile users and make the page more consistant.
I don't see why not, it'll help out mobile users and make the page more consistant.
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so aside from the soul manipulation and absorption, anything else that needs clarifications or is iffy?
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Bump
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Agree with the rest, neutral with the soul and absorption thing right now.
Why you always back to your first avi Kagari?
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We have to talk about consumables, if they are ok to use or not
Aside from this, I keep my opinion from my first post
Aside from this, I keep my opinion from my first post
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