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DEATH BATTLE! Discussion Thread (2024–2025) (All-time Death Battle Spoilers Alert)

XitSign said:
...I'm going to be honest, getting weirdly psycho-analytical about me just talking about having different experiences and the main takeaway being about me 'throwing indirect' at the Sonic Supporters comes off kinda scummy if the mindset is going to be 'We just shit on one side here, and that's the rule'...

Feels kinda toxic, just painted over with irony and shitposting to make it look funny...
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That's... not what I mean at all? I wasn't trying to psycho-analyse you, but when you say certain people were "assholes" in a thread you feel people are being aggressive towards Death Battle makes me think you got a problem with people here. Glad that's not the case, tho.

I am not saying we just shit on one-side here, just that the reason Mario gets attacked more is because Death Battle already favors him. That's why Death Battle communities also target Sonic here because Sonic IS favored here.

I have no idea why this became a pity party about who gets more downplayed or screwed over or whatever. It's kinda dumb. Casuals favor Sonic, Death Battle favors Mario, VSBW favors Sonic. That's all.

(Although only VSBW favors Eggman versus Bowser).
 
FuarRu23 said:
I mean, yall believe that the Base Sonic cast is Universal in base, and probably see anything less as ´´downplay´´
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FuarRu23 said:
Welcome to the Sonic fandom, some of the most toxic communities in the Internet
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You've been baiting for a reaction from Sonic fans for several pages now. Give it a rest and act civil, or at least more mature, because I wouldn't like to associate your name with Sonic Ragebait
 
ShakeResounding said:
It's not the hax being unreasonable, it's how Bowser supporters are claiming Bowser fights that's unreasonable because most of his methods are brutish because they typically work and get him his way.

At least with Eggy, he DOES blatantly use that myriad of hax more often because that's what he is as a character. He's reliant upon his hax 95% of the time when he HAS it and isn't just actively pursuing it (Chaos Emeralds, Time Eater, Time Stones, etc).
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Okay, my bad. Like I posted above, browsing on Twitter and even on Reddit, I've seen a few people upset with the PREVIEW

But my bad, misunderstood what you were actually talking about!
 
I don't want to write an entire essay, and I'm not going to, but I will say that I personally think that Mario and Sonic are franchises that are equally as downplayed as they are wanked.

For example: I feel like Base Mario character stats are severely lower than what they actually should be (I don't know how Mario is only Tier 6 when he's defeated enemies powered by Power Stars and even Grand Stars in the past) while I feel like some of the higher end stuff for Sonic is questionable like hypertimelines and infinite speed for base characters. But on the flip side: I've always thought that the higher dimensional arguments for Mario were pretty sus, and I personally think that Sonic should be at bare minimum Multi Solar System Level and MTFL+ in base and Multiversal to Multiversal+ as Super Sonic.

So really, it comes down to interpretation and I think it's literally impossible to have people agree on power scaling collectively and completely.
 
XitSign said:
Okay, my bad. Like I posted above, browsing on Twitter and even on Reddit, I've seen a few people upset with the PREVIEW

But my bad, misunderstood what you were actually talking about!
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You're completely fine dude! None taken at all.

No, I wasn't upset at the preview because there was nothing to be upset over lmao. Granted I think Eggman is going to lose anyways, I'd just like for more respect regarding the characters I like same as anyone. I don't really care about stats unless it's something particularly egregious.
 
Being powered up by magic macguffins shouldnt automatically scale you to their max potential.

Hell, base Sonic has battled Chaos Emerald & Phantom Ruby users who would then lead to scale chain which gets base Sonic at Uni.

But I really dont think Mario or Sonic should get that. Emerl absorbing FEB and Sonic getting Solar System+ is also realistically sus as well, because there is no way Sonic is intended to be that strong.

Unfortunately common sense isnt viable argument.
 
Theuser789 said:
That's... not what I mean at all? I wasn't trying to psycho-analyse you, but when you say certain people were "assholes" in a thread you feel people are being aggressive towards Death Battle makes me think you got a problem with people here. Glad that's not the case, tho.

I am not saying we just shit on one-side here, just that the reason Mario gets attacked more is because Death Battle already favors him. That's why Death Battle communities also target Sonic here because Sonic IS favored here.

I have no idea why this became a pity party about who gets more downplayed or screwed over or whatever. It's kinda dumb. Casuals favor Sonic, Death Battle favors Mario, VSBW favors Sonic. That's all.

(Although only VSBW favors Eggman versus Bowser).
Click to expand...
I really AM just...talking that I clearly have had very different experiences leading up to this fight with the community, and I simply thought that was interesting...Your response came off really weird with how it was a bit defensive and a bit too focused on my mental state...

I simply didn't name names specifically because I just think that's rude to drag their names when it's not that serious a topic, you know? Talk about my experiences, the fact that I needed a better environment to get my mood and enthusiasm back, how I shouldn't let 'assholes' bother me, but didn't want to put anyone's name out there is all.
 
XitSign said:
I really AM just...talking that I clearly have had very different experiences leading up to this fight with the community, and I simply thought that was interesting...Your response came off really weird with how it was a bit defensive and a bit too focused on my mental state...

I simply didn't name names specifically because I just think that's rude to drag their names when it's not that serious a topic, you know? Talk about my experiences, the fact that I needed a better environment to get my mood and enthusiasm back, how I shouldn't let 'assholes' bother me, but didn't want to put anyone's name out there is all.
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Well, sorry if offended you or anything, then. Didn't mean to. Glad you're feeling better and I hope those assholes won't disturb you again and stuff.
 
Also yeah this "Who's more wanked/downplayed" is nonsense.

I am far from a regular in this thread, but I don't think I've seen another match-up that goes the pity party route compared to the Mario/Sonic franchises. Let's face it.
  • Mario scaling has been plagued by ridiculous notions of Plato scaling and whatnot to reach 1-A or whatever within the past few years.
    • On the flipside, 9-C and Transonic Mario has unironically been argued even on THIS site by a staff member or two years ago.
  • Similarly, ZaStando has spearheaded the "1-A/Tier 0 Sonic" agenda for years in a desperate counterbalance.
    • Likewise, nothing beats the good ol' 9-B bullet-time Sonic.
Both get wanked and both get shit on from the high heavens down to the pit of powerscaling hell. My issie has never been "I hate Bowser and all Mario fans GRRRRR they're wanked more", it's "Man, how is Death Battle gonna topple Sonic scaling this time?"
 
TMaakkonen said:
Being powered up by magic macguffins shouldnt automatically scale you to their max potential.

Hell, base Sonic has battled Chaos Emerald & Phantom Ruby users who would then lead to scale chain which gets base Sonic at Uni.

But I really dont think Mario or Sonic should get that. Emerl absorbing FEB and Sonic getting Solar System+ is also realistically sus as well, because there is no way Sonic is intended to be that strong.

Unfortunately common sense isnt viable argument.
Click to expand...
The 'intent' and 'common sense' argument has gotten far more popular lately, but I'm going to be honest, I don't know what to do with it a lot of the time...

What a creator intended doesn't feel really clear cut to me, cause similar feats start to blend together and it keeps creeping, since once a certain level of power is 'justified' as intent it becomes easier to justify the leeway of going 'a little higher', and I just sorta watch the same argument of drawing the lines in the sand of where outliers start and end, but they've just stopped saying 'outlier' and now say 'intent'...
 
TMaakkonen said:
Being powered up by magic macguffins shouldnt automatically scale you to their max potential.

Hell, base Sonic has battled Chaos Emerald & Phantom Ruby users who would then lead to scale chain which gets base Sonic at Uni.

But I really dont think Mario or Sonic should get that. Emerl absorbing FEB and Sonic getting Solar System+ is also realistically sus as well, because there is no way Sonic is intended to be that strong.

Unfortunately common sense isnt viable argument.
Click to expand...
In all fairness, author's intent and common sense are often overridden by the rule of cool and wanting to have spectacle in video games.

Like yeah we could sit here and say that Sonic being Solar System Level+ in base or fighting characters who use the Chaos Emeralds and Phantom Ruby doesn't make sense because it wasn't the intent of the author to make Sonic that strong, but they show those moments anyway because...it's cool, you know?

A recent example of this is in Shadow Generations, Shadow is able to physically overpower Metal Overlord and even states in the Japanese dub that Overlord could never defeat Sonic with his level of power. This is pretty significant because Metal Overlord was once a character who required Super Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles in order to defeat in Sonic Heroes.

I get what you mean: it shouldn't make sense. But it's there anyway because, in the eyes of the author, it's cool and it has spectacle to it.
 
Attempting to divert into a FAR MORE SUBJECTIVE concern, but one I think is interesting.

The 'Army' aspect really worries me about this fight. No offense to the Sonic side of this fight, but for me? In the current lineup the only two I have an attachment to is Eggman and Sage. Most of the Egg Fleet can be scrapped and I wouldn't shed a tear, even Metal Sonic I'm not endeared to enough that if he 'dies' it would suck (especially being a robot I've seen him defeated and rebuilt enough times that its a 'whatever, he'll be fine'.)

But the Mario side does have a lot more 'character' for me, I'm a LOT more endeared to a larger number of that cast. And most of them being biological means they can get more grizzly, bloody, 'Death Battle doesn't care your franchise is Rated E' deaths, which especially for the non-focus characters will extra suck. If they go the route of 'the winning army tears apart the losing army' and Eggman wins? ...I really don't want to see an entire Mario Party's cast being torn to bloody gibs.

It sucks seeing a character you like get a death (and depending on how squimish you are, bloodier and disrespect deaths can extra suck) but an entire Mario Wiki's page of the cast getting that treatment will be unfortunate for me...

...Course, counterpoint: Sage dying and getting some sort of sad noble death will REALLY hurt, and there's always the chance the fight will tear up both armies until Bowser and Eggman is left, ending on a 'everyone dies'.
 
Secret truth is that you dont want your favorite characters in DB because chance of them dying just sucks and it feels bad when it happens even if justified.

Come save us Aang vs Aether. Bless us with your almighty indifference.
 
It really can be, I have a massive love for the animation team's best work, and getting crossover fights can be so cool, especially for characters or their forms that don't get as much animated focus (Maka's partially so exciting for me just because there's no way they won't use the Black Blood Dress which I think looks sick but the anime didn't get to use).

But losing a fav to a really gorey, messy death, or one that really rubs some salt in the wounds can suck.

My heart goes out to anyone who's a diehard Black Atom fan, that one was one of the hardest to watch for a character I didn't even care about.
 
XitSign said:
Attempting to divert into a FAR MORE SUBJECTIVE concern, but one I think is interesting.

The 'Army' aspect really worries me about this fight. No offense to the Sonic side of this fight, but for me? In the current lineup the only two I have an attachment to is Eggman and Sage. Most of the Egg Fleet can be scrapped and I wouldn't shed a tear, even Metal Sonic I'm not endeared to enough that if he 'dies' it would suck (especially being a robot I've seen him defeated and rebuilt enough times that its a 'whatever, he'll be fine'.)

But the Mario side does have a lot more 'character' for me, I'm a LOT more endeared to a larger number of that cast. And most of them being biological means they can get more grizzly, bloody, 'Death Battle doesn't care your franchise is Rated E' deaths, which especially for the non-focus characters will extra suck. If they go the route of 'the winning army tears apart the losing army' and Eggman wins? ...I really don't want to see an entire Mario Party's cast being torn to bloody gibs.

It sucks seeing a character you like get a death (and depending on how squimish you are, bloodier and disrespect deaths can extra suck) but an entire Mario Wiki's page of the cast getting that treatment will be unfortunate for me...

...Course, counterpoint: Sage dying and getting some sort of sad noble death will REALLY hurt, and there's always the chance the fight will tear up both armies until Bowser and Eggman is left, ending on a 'everyone dies'.
Click to expand...
Sorry bro but the Eggman Empire agenda transcends all:
Ryr2UQi.jpeg
 
Starsprite53 said:
So does Bowser (modtly), if anything, Eggman didn't even use Time Stones power in a good way except for the bad ending, and so the Chaos emeralds, I think the phantom ruby is the only item that Eggman used efficiently in a battle.
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He didn't have the Time Stones outside of the bad ending.
 
Starsprite53 said:
So does Bowser (modtly), if anything, Eggman didn't even use Time Stones power in a good way except for the bad ending, and so the Chaos emeralds, I think the phantom ruby is the only item that Eggman used efficiently in a battle.
Click to expand...

I don't have a full opinion on the actual debate itself (genuinely, I don't think I know AND trust enough of the Mario or Sonic powerscaling and indexing to have an informed point)

But one of the things that I think I've noticed with the hax debate and the 'in-character' debate is that both Bowser and Eggman's biggest problem with the people who are arguing the points really is their own inconsistency. Both in their characterizations, but also just the genre or game they're currently in.

Mario, Sonic, and their entire franchises seem to REALLY live and die by the current game's genre or their current medium with what they'll remember they'll have, or what they'll never use again.

...It's another reason I feel I'm not going to be informed enough even if I started right now and tried to completely consume both franchises to fact check everything...
 
More truth fact is, I kinda dont think there is a consistent way to analyze all characters equally. One method that is fair to one, might be unjust for another.

Author intent is really annoying. Trying to say that like base Sonic could destroy an universe is silly. But there might be a time where character destroys a planet but then later author goes "erm actually he isnt planet destroyer teehee", and death of author is valid argument.

Then there are statements, a lot of verses get massively boosted by them. But when is it ok to use?

Starsprite53 said:
What's their max potential?
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Like this here, an user powered up by Phantom Ruby can fight Super Sonic and get his scaling. Base Modern Sonic even later beats Infinite, even if with help, that makes him like 1/2 to Super Sonic. Statements even say that Infinite was strongest foe Sonic ever faced. By all accounts this lines up. But now base Sonic is multiversal??

Things quickly spiral out of control. This is what I mean by Modern VS. Things get complicated really fast and really big.
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
I hope that mentality ends up changing once Death Battle gets past all the Kickstarter funded episodes and starts doing their own MUs. Because I feel like that Death Battle was able to make that their MO because they were a part of something once, aka RT.

But since Death Battle is now an independent business, I think they should consider having some of their team analyze what are very popular franchises right now and create episodes to capitalize on said popularity. Now I think they could still do some obscure MUs, but I also think we may see a surge in episodes based off what's trending.
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I agree with this, even if they need to account how long it takes to make episodes. But yeah, analyze what people want, what's really popular, what to capitalize on, etc. Balance it out with an obscure idea too, but punctuate it with something big. One Piece would be amazing to capitalize on since it's like the biggest thing in the world, and hasn't been in the show enough.
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
I don't want to write an entire essay, and I'm not going to, but I will say that I personally think that Mario and Sonic are franchises that are equally as downplayed as they are wanked.

For example: I feel like Base Mario character stats are severely lower than what they actually should be (I don't know how Mario is only Tier 6 when he's defeated enemies powered by Power Stars and even Grand Stars in the past) while I feel like some of the higher end stuff for Sonic is questionable like hypertimelines and infinite speed for base characters. But on the flip side: I've always thought that the higher dimensional arguments for Mario were pretty sus, and I personally think that Sonic should be at bare minimum Multi Solar System Level and MTFL+ in base and Multiversal to Multiversal+ as Super Sonic.

So really, it comes down to interpretation and I think it's literally impossible to have people agree on power scaling collectively and completely.
Click to expand...
Straight up gem post here. Both are equally wanked and downplayed, and I straight up think both might be similar levels of power potentially.
 
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