PrinceofPein
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I agree with the OP
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DC J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology Downgrade
- Thread starter IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I very much agree with the rating proposal for Indra Fourth Heaven but I disagree with downgrading Pralaya and Divine Presence.Thank you for helping out.
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Pralaya should have two separate keys one for her avatar and her true form like last time. Her avatar scale to Creation because she destroyed it including Low 1-C accepted realms like Heaven and Collective Unconscious. This form is just a small part of an infinite ocean of nothing that scales past anything besides the Divine Presence. Creation as a whole is nothing to an avatar and to her True Form would be a small speck it could just wash over and the only being that commands Pralaya is the Divine Presence who sees it as a mere dream the entire Swa of Brahman.
True Form Parlaya also scales past the Creator entity, an aspect of God(Divine Presence). Light, Darkness, Void, Creation, and all things are part of its dream including all creators from every religion so even things like Devils and Gods are part of it. Pralaya scale past everything it dreams and Pralaya itself is insignificant to it.
Pralaya should have Low 1-C for avatars to scale and destroy Creation and 1-C for her True Form is the entire ocean of Nothing formed into the Sea of Love that became everything. She scales above it since her avatar is just a “glimpse” of the infinite she is.
For the Divine Presence, everything is just a dream. It transcends all things even when added together. It should be DC most powerful being above Yahweh, Overvoid, Pralaya, Source, and the Great Darkness since all of them came to their vacation of just being part of its imagination.
PS: Yes, the point sounds repeated but it's too emphasize my points.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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For Pralaya, giving her two keys is probably okay FRA, but that's not going to prevent her from being downgraded. Her avatar scales to Heaven, which is 5D Low 1-C, which means her true form is 6D Low 1-C for transcending that, but it simply isn't enough to give her 1-C, which requires 7D at minimum. For the Divine Presence, things like Overvoid, Source, and the Great Darkness are from different sections of the cosmology split, meaning DP can't scale above them - it can only transcend what's in its own cosmology, which makes it 7D 1-C for transcending Pralalya.
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Thank you for helping out.
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Not going over the fact, Pralaya is the Unified field that goes beyond the 11D M-Theory.
Pralaya doesn't scale to Heaven, she destroyed Creation. She scales beyond Creation because she is the Darkness before the Creation in which Heaven alongside all Creation was made. An aspect of her did a feat that took Oneness to do by splitting his love in duality. She should be Low 1-C for her aspect because she scales past Creation. 7D due to transcending her small aspect which is a “glimpse” of the infinity she is.
I also never said I'm scaling the Divine Presence above them. Naturally, he should be above all of them because Mattheis tells us God is everything we imagine he/she is. More or less using God is synonymous with the Divine Presence he technically would be the threat extent of Yahweh. Certain characters can overlap and the God/DP should be one. Even if we don’t it scales past Pralaya True Form.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Citation needed.
You're going to need to show me all the scans to persuade me about that.
Your first two sentences contradict each other because "he should be above all of them" is saying you're scaling him above them, and it would be a NLF to interpret "God is everything we imagine he/she is" as anything beyond transcending what's shown in his cosmology. Trying to overlap different DC cosmologies also goes against the whole point of the split.
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Sorry, I meant to say non-manifest field. She still is dimensionless and not affected by the strenuous pull of Creation.
Her destroying Creation was the whole premise of Justice League Dark nesting its final issues. Not to mention in his earlier work every established Order(Light, Men, Pleasure) and all Chaos(Darkness, Women, Pain) being the encompassing point for all Creation including Heaven and other realms will be in the final stages of Kali Yuga when Mahapralaya begins. We see in #38-40 she destroyed Creation from every direction until all there was Void and the House of Mystery and JLD members. She does not scale to Heaven, her aspect already scales to the entirety of Creation.
It's more so you didn't get my message. I said we can use Divine Presence intercahnagbly with God. I also added that “even if we don't” we still know he transcends all things including True Form Pralaya. Since Mattheis intended use of “God” would be applied to all verses because there is always a captain “G” God and nothing has contradicted that notion since the Presence is the linking key.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I'll wait for staff to evaluate that.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I need someone to evaluate VeryGoofyToddler's posts.
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Are any of you willing to help out here please?
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Not really. It's due to the magic and her connection to the cosmic arteries with the World Tree. She bonded with Swamp Thing but she naturally does not possess the power to stop Pralaya. They only slowed her down.
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Didn't she temporarily hold Pralaya back?
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“She” did not. Pralaya was consuming everything until all there was Void. However, the World Tree knew of this and hid the House of Mystery. Zee was alive and as long as she was alive, she was key to doing the plan which involves the World Tree. She states that they only temporarily slowed her down and that everything will return to Pralaya no matter what they do. She had something to do with it but she wasn't the only reason why.
PrinceofPein
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My agreement is still with the OP, I have not seen anything to change my mind
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I don't see why we're scaling Pralaya to Heaven. An avatar collapsed the entirety of Creation and without the help of the World Tree then none of their plans would succeed. She is much above Heaven and the Multiverse itself as just an M-Body. Her True Form is infinite much larger than a small part of her with the only thing being the Divine Presence to determine when the Sleep of Brahman needs to return.
So M-Body/Avatar - Low 1-C
True Form - 1-C
The rating I suggest seems fine. I don't see why we can't have these separate keys. Her True Form is literally comparable to Overvoid and the Void they all have the same description.
So M-Body/Avatar - Low 1-C
True Form - 1-C
The rating I suggest seems fine. I don't see why we can't have these separate keys. Her True Form is literally comparable to Overvoid and the Void they all have the same description.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Merely being "above" creation wouldn't qualify for qualitative superiority without further context, and her avatar collapsing creation would only scale her to its rating, not make her qualitatively superior to it.
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I said the M-Body is comparable to Creation which is Low 1-C.
An M-Body of infinity would be nothing to that quantity where it came from. For how Overvoid is infinite nothingness where all contradictions die. True Form Parlaya is the unmanifest field beyond the dimensionality of Creation and far larger than the Sea of Love/Eternity which is all Creation being nothing but a small stain to an infinite Ocean of Nothing.
If a small part of infinity can collapse all of Creation. What do you think the entirety from which it came would do? The only reason why this doesn't happen is because the Smile doesn't allow it to just be washed over like a flicker of light in an endless darkness.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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This is becoming exceedingly complicated, and someone more experienced than me should evaluate it.
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Currently, Pralaya's Avatar is Low 1-C for having destroyed the 5-D realm of now and destroying the multiverse. Her true form is 1-C for scaling higher than Creation and being above an aspect of God. The possibly High 1-C for the Divine Presence for being higher than Pralaya and the immeasurably-layered creation whose plane of existence have qualifiable superiority over the material reality.
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That's literally High 1-B
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Nothing really there proves 1-C or High 1-C . That only makes both Pralaya and DP Low 1-C tbh.
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Pralaya being 1-C makes sense since an avatar is already far larger and scaled to Creation. Being able to destroy the entirety of it without issue. That was a small glimpse of what full Prlaaya is the entire Ocean of Nothing where like the Overvoid, the entirety of Creation would be less than a speck of dust to it.
Pralaya's description, size, and hierarchy literally matches the Great Darkness, FC Overvoid, and the Void from Vertigo.
As for DP. He’s beyond everyone combined including Pralaya and they are all but part of his cosmic mind dreaming of all of them.
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That's only Low 1-C.
Two levels of infinity is still Low 1-C.
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I've listed my reason. However, seeing as TF Pralaya is an infinite Ocean that is beyond Creation. Would literally be equated to Overvoid, Void, and The Great Darknesss. All the limitless energy of the the unmanifest field that makes Creation look like a speck. It's above all the dimensions, duality, concepts, ideas, and Creators of Creation being gulped by an aspect. The whole thing would be 1-C.
The Universal Model is Low 2-C. All the way up to 2-A would already be considered a degree of infinity. Low 1-C is one to two which is where Heaven is scaled to. 1-C is three to five which Pralaya is. Heaven is one and the whole of Creation is two, which an avatar is around at. Three to five would come from True Form. QS is already enough to be granted for a tier-up based on setting and context, TF Pralaya is just an aspect of the DP. Like how the Infinite Ocean makes Creation looks small, DP makes Pralaya look insignificant.
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I don't really understand how creation is like 1C when it's immeasurably layered?
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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As I repeat, you're not allowed to cross-scale between the cosmologies merely because two things occupy similar roles, and Pralaya only has evidence for Low 1-C for transcending Heaven, not 1-C.
The difference between Low 2-C and 2-A isn't one of qualitative superiority. As I have repeatedly explained, Heaven is scaled to 5D Low 1-C for transcending the multiverse, Pralaya only has enough justification for 6D Low 1-C for transcending Heaven, and the Divine Presence only has enough justification for 7D 1-C for transcending Pralaya.
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I'm not cross-scaling. I'm saying we all use the same logic of what they represent. Even if we don't take the route we can definitely tell how similar they are with characters in that tier. If not they should all be downgraded to Low 1-C (Overvoid, TGD, The Void).
An avatar already destroyed Creation. An avatar of infinity would be small yet it is already bigger than Creation. That “female” we see is an emanation of her that their minds could comprehend.
An avatar is bigger, older, and more fundamental than Creation itself. That's a small avatar like Creation is nothing but a tiny piece to the Sea of Brahma which would engulf even the Creator an aspect of God.
Low 2-C isn't infinite. Infinity starts at 2-A which corresponds to the space-time continuum. Low 1-C is the same but with QS which transcends the 2-A structure being a larger quantity than 2-A.
2-A is an infinity. It's just not QS to a Low 2-C structure but Low 1-C transcending an infinite 2-A would boost Low 1-C to start from 2 degrees of infinity. Unless the Cosmology doesn't have a 2-A structure but rather a Low 1-C would be a transcendent tier of one level of infinity.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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The Overvoid transcends the 6D Sixth Dimension, meaning it has enough justification for 7D. TGD and the Void are being sorted out. The point is that regardless of how similar they are in narrative portrayal, Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, the Great Darkness, and the Void have enough evidence to scale them to 7D while Pralaya simply doesn't, and these things all being depicted as a background infinite void in no way proves that they are comparable. Trying to argue otherwise by saying "we all use the same logic of what they represent" is cross-scaling even if you don't realize it, and they must be evaluated separately, not all strung to the same tier.
Creation, which includes Heaven, is a 5D structure, and destroying it only makes her avatar 5D, so her true form is only 6D.
Low 2-C is one space-time continuum, which is assumed to be infinite by default. Technically speaking, destroying two, three, four, or even an infinity of spacetimes is just not superior to destroying one because all of them involve destroying uncountably infinite snapshots of 3D space, but we ignore that for the sake of fiction. However, transcending anything in Low 2-C, 2-C, 2-B, or 2-A is always baseline 5D Low 1-C, and the structure being transcended being 2-A has never been accepted as a justification to immediately jump to 6D Low 1-C instead. You're just making stuff up at this point.
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The Overvoid doesn't transcend the 6th Dimension. It simply exists as the space outside of it. The Source has some depiction of transcendence but how Grant writes Overvoud is much different than Synder or Tynion IV.
You just said TGD and Void are similar to the Overvoid and Pralaya is literally described in the almost same description as the Overvoid and TGD yet you simply say “Pralaya” doesn't? Very constructive logic here.
Then we should go into detail about where they would actually transcend their Creation if Pralaya is getting this treatment.
What I was saying is that the others get their tier for being an infinity larger than the Creation which is the same description then it can be used.
Her avatar destroyed Creation would make her 6D above 5D. Why is she being scaled to Creation something that is insignificant to her even while just being an avatar? Her Tue Form being the Sea of Brahma being larger and more fundamental and being the unmanifest fields from which all Creators come then it's obvious she's more than that.
“One space-time continuum” would be 3-4D space which makes no sense if their context isn't infinite. If it were then it complements my idea more but it would make no sense in the context of what 2-A would represent.
3D is not equivalent to an infinite space-time continuum. Low 2-C would be infinite 3D Space in coordination with spatiality which is only described as infinite for a “3D” space. Having infinite space-time would make it two degrees of infinity by your logic. One for Low 2-C and one for another set of infinity that corresponds to all the space-time in 3-4D structure.
This is why Low 2-C infinite “3D” space is not the same as the infinite space-time continuum of a structure because Low 2-C could be just for a Universe. 2-A refers to a set quantity that is infinite not just for one set.
Degrees of infinity and transcendence don't work in tandem. The tier states that when transcending a specific structure that could “equate” to a set like a degree of infinity of two would give it Low 1-C which works as either 5D or 6D space.
5D + Infinite would be Low 1-C still it makes up a 6D space. QS being involved wouldn't make it that rather it would just be 1-C via transcending that structure.
5D + 5D = 5D = Low 1-C
5D + infinite = 6D = Low 1-C
5D + infinite + QS = 1-C
Low 2-C = maybe infinite 3D space
2-A = infinite space-time which would be 4D
Low 1-C = transcending just Low 2-C is one degree of infinity which is 5D. Transcending 2-A which holds all infinite of Low 2-C in a structure that is two degrees of infinity which is 6D.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Grant and Snyder/Tynion IV are composited, so that's irrelevant.
I never said that in my post. I said that the Overvoid, TGE, and the Void all individually have enough evidence to be 1-C, not that I was comparing them to each other to get them that rank.
Yes, they all have the same description of being an infinity larger than the Creation, but you have to consider that Creation can have a different size depending on the cosmology. Morrison/Snyder/Tynion IV and Vertigo all have a 6D Creation while DeMattis only has 5D.
I don't even understand what you're trying to say. This is too convoluted for me to read.
Everything about that is wrong and completely incongruent with our tiering system. Transcending any number of 4D space-times is 5D Low 1-C.
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He's correct however that in this composite cosmology, the Overvoid is not a higher infinity to the Sixth Dimension. The beings within it are quite literally made of pieces of the Overvoid.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Okay, I can trust you on that, so if that's the case, downgrade the Overvoid to 6D Low 1-C.
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If we are downgrading Overvoid to Low 1-C then the Source would have to follow as well as the Presence. Which doesn't make sense unless we say the “Overvoid is not part of the three that makes up God.”
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