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DC J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology Downgrade

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IdiosyncraticLawyer

IdiosyncraticLawyer

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Continuing from this discussion in the DC general discussion thread, J.M. DeMatteis' DC cosmology is tiered dubiously.

Heaven​

Heaven is a Low 1-C structure, as it transcends the multiverse's days and places, which doesn't need to be changed. However, the totality of creation is High 1-B, which is wrong for multiple reasons, and it was rejected in the cosmology split but wasn't removed. As I explained:
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Should High 1-B even be on the page, or is it just something the staff neglected to remove? The justifications seem quite suspect:
  1. There are as many realms in Heaven as there are souls in Creation.[108] (This scan is clearly saying that each individual person's heaven is tailored to their belief system, which isn't evidence for some of them transcending the others, only that heaven gives each soul a different realm)
  2. There are different planes of Heaven.[106] (This scan only states that there are different heavens for souls with different learning needs before reincarnation and implies no infinite hierarchy, and the word "beyond" is used too vaguely here to glean any information from it about qualitative superiority)
On top of that, Pralaya and the Divine Presence, which transcend heaven with qualitative superiority, only reach into 1-C and High 1-C, which is nonsensical if heaven is High 1-B.
Click to expand...
As such, the sentence about High 1-B should be removed from Heaven's tier.

Mahapralaya/Pralaya/Sea of Brahma​

Mahapralaya/Pralaya/Sea of Brahma is currently ranked as Low 1-C, possibly 1-C, but its justification, transcending all of creation, only qualifies it for the former, as Heaven is a 5D Low 1-C, meaning transcending it is a 6D Low 1-C. As such, "possibly 1-C" should be removed from Mahapralaya's tier.

The Divine Presence/The Smile/God​

The Divine Presence/The Smile/God is currently ranked as 1-C, possibly High 1-C, but its justification, transcending Mahapralaya, only qualifies it for the former, as Mahapralaya is being downgraded to a 6D Low 1-C, meaning transcending it is a 7D 1-C. As such, "possibly High 1-C" should be removed from the Divine Presence's tier.

TL;DR​

Heaven - 5D Low 1-C, removing High 1-B
Mahapralaya/Pralaya/Sea of Brahma - 6D Low 1-C, removing 1-C
The Divine Presence/The Smile/God - 7D 1-C, removing High 1-C
 
It was stated that DeMatteis cosmology has thousand to limitless number of planes of the existence/layers of dream.

What's these planes or dreams? Well, the universe exists on many different levels, with the materal universe being the most obvious. Heaven is a higher level of reality than the materal universe, it's a truer and deeper dream, and there are more dreams beyond the Heaven with each dream thining the veil between mortal beings and the Divine Presence.

These scans alone don't prove that each higher dream is a higher infinity but gladly we have extra proofs. Heaven, which is a truer and deeper dream than the material universe, has "days" that transcends day and "places" that transcends place i.e. it transcends 4-D spacetime continuum which makes Heaven a Low 1-C structure. Also there's a fact that Heaven contains multiple universes, each for a different belief, which further supports its Low 1-C size.

The difference between each higher and lower dream should be the same as the difference between Heaven and material universe (because Heaven is also just a truer dream than the material universe).

So, each higher/truer dream transcends the lower ones which makes DeMatteis's Creation a 1-B to High 1-B structure.
 
LuciferDC099 said:
It was stated that DeMatteis cosmology has thousand to limitless number of planes of the existence/layers of dream.

What's these planes or dreams? Well, the universe exists on many different levels, with the materal universe being the most obvious. Heaven is a higher level of reality than the materal universe, it's a truer and deeper dream, and there are more dreams beyond the Heaven with each dream thining the veil between mortal beings and the Divine Presence.

These scans alone don't prove that each higher dream is a higher infinity but gladly we have extra proofs. Heaven, which is a truer and deeper dream than the material universe, has "days" that transcends day and "places" that transcends place i.e. it transcends 4-D spacetime continuum which makes Heaven a Low 1-C structure. Also there's a fact that Heaven contains multiple universes, each for a different belief, which further supports its Low 1-C size.

The difference between each higher and lower dream should be the same as the difference between Heaven and material universe (because Heaven is also just a truer dream than the material universe).

So, each higher/truer dream transcends the lower ones which makes DeMatteis's Creation a 1-B to High 1-B structure.
Click to expand...
I'll leave you to it for now and let the staff evaluate that. Even if we accept this, the cosmology page needs a serious rewrite for comprehensibility.
 
Might be a dumb question here but if Creation as a whole is High 1B why isn’t Divine Presence rated likewise since he’s beyond it all?
 
TastyCream said:
Might be a dumb question here but if Creation as a whole is High 1B why isn’t Divine Presence rated likewise since he’s beyond it all?
Click to expand...
That's the exact problem we're trying to rectify.
 
TastyCream said:
Might be a dumb question here but if Creation as a whole is High 1B why isn’t Divine Presence rated likewise since he’s beyond it all?
Click to expand...
Imo the Divine Presence should be Low 1-A or 1-A. High 1-B Creation and beings like the Spectre (who merged with the Void beyond all Voids which is beyond all space, time and dreams) is just a part of his imagination.
 
DeMatteis' Cosmology is High 1-B. The DC discussion side simply didn't give the proper reasonings for it, like the explanation about the layers of dream having a Reality > Fiction relationship.

DC doesn't get past Low 1-A, though.
 
Deagonx said:
Personally, I do not agree with that in the context in which it is given. I don't think the dreams are meant to be seen as an R>F difference.
Click to expand...

At first glance it seems so (I actually saw you in Comic Vine arguing that like a year ago). Besides, other supplemental scans support the idea.
 
Nostredam said:
DeMatteis' Cosmology is High 1-B. The DC discussion side simply didn't give the proper reasonings for it, like the explanation about the layers of dream having a Reality > Fiction relationship.

DC doesn't get past Low 1-A, though.
Click to expand...
why tho? aint Divine presence transcend pralaya
 
Samael_010 said:
why tho? aint Divine presence transcend pralaya
Click to expand...

He doesn't. Pralaya is the "truest" form of the Divine Presence;

The Divine Presence (or Divine Dreamer) is defined by the layers of identity that represent the conscious limitations of everything in creation. When all those identities/layers are removed, a being can connect his oneness with God, which is the Void itself:


DivinePresence.jpg


Pralaya is God's unconscious form, where everything in creation returns to nothing, even The Creator, which is noted to be an aspect of God's unconscious, the Sea of Brahma:


Pralaya.jpg


Pralaya is God (the Divine Dreamer) in its purest form, where he dreams all of creation (the conscious side) into the darkness/nothing that precedes it (the unconscious side). They share the same Tier.
 
Deagonx said:
Personally, I do not agree with that in the context in which it is given. I don't think the dreams are meant to be seen as an R>F difference.
Click to expand...
Well, in DeMatteis cosmology all of creation is a dream and it has 1000 to infinite layers. Heaven is a higher layer and it completely transcends the material world (a lower layer). I'm not very knowledgeable on tiering system but i think the difference between Heaven and material world counts as an R>F difference.
 
LuciferDC099 said:
It was stated that DeMatteis cosmology has thousand to limitless number of planes of the existence/layers of dream.

What's these planes or dreams? Well, the universe exists on many different levels, with the materal universe being the most obvious. Heaven is a higher level of reality than the materal universe, it's a truer and deeper dream, and there are more dreams beyond the Heaven with each dream thining the veil between mortal beings and the Divine Presence.

These scans alone don't prove that each higher dream is a higher infinity but gladly we have extra proofs. Heaven, which is a truer and deeper dream than the material universe, has "days" that transcends day and "places" that transcends place i.e. it transcends 4-D spacetime continuum which makes Heaven a Low 1-C structure. Also there's a fact that Heaven contains multiple universes, each for a different belief, which further supports its Low 1-C size.

The difference between each higher and lower dream should be the same as the difference between Heaven and material universe (because Heaven is also just a truer dream than the material universe).

So, each higher/truer dream transcends the lower ones which makes DeMatteis's Creation a 1-B to High 1-B structure.
Click to expand...
@Qawsedf234 @Deagonx @Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @PrinceofPein

What do you think about this?
 
Antvasima said:
@Qawsedf234 @Deagonx @Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @PrinceofPein

What do you think about this?
Click to expand...
The scan about the truer and deeper dreams, in my opinion, is not best interpreted as an R>F layer.

The story is about a man named Robert who died, but instead of going to Heaven, he entered an ideal dream world where he got to live out the life that he always wanted to have. Spectre starts showing up and influencing the dream, to try to break Robert out of it. Spectre explains that sometimes souls who can't let go of their earthy lives enter these dream worlds before moving onto Heaven, but he had to intervene because Robert was stuck there.

When they arrive at the gates of Heaven, Robert asks if Heaven is also a dream, and Spectre gives this monologue:

"Call it a deeper dream... a truer dream. But there are more dreams still -- beyond it! And each deep dream thins the veil between you and the Divine Dreamer. Between the limited self you imagine you are -- and the infinite self you've always been. It's an adventure Robert. A journey of discovery... from lifetime to lifetime... dream to dream."

It's more about spiritual growth than it is meant to be interpreted as R>F layers that Robert (or all of humanity) are rising through. Spectre didn't plop down into a realm he considered fictional to pull Robert up into a "more real" level of reality. Letting go of the dream world was a step along the way of his spiritual growth.
 
Here is what I would put:

Pralaya:

Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level (Her physical avatar swallowed the five-dimensional Realm of Now and destroyed all directions of time and space throughout the Multiverse) | Complex Multiverse level(Exists far beyond Creation as the personification of the Sea of Brahma, the primordial void from which the Multiverse emerged and to which all Creation will eventually return. Precedes and can supposedly absorb the Creator, an aspect of God)

Keys: Avatar | True Form

Footnotes:
  • It has been said that Pralaya is God's Unconscious, but "God's Unconscious" is related to be one of the aspects of God because the function of Pralaya is the dissolution of creation into darkness when God decides that it is time to return to an unconscious state, hence why Pralaya's was “restricted” until the time of the Sleep of Brahma (Mahapralaya), which is more explicit through 1988's Doctor Fate, in which DeMatteis portrays God as the one who defined Creation and Mahapralaya.
    • Pralaya does not precede God but an aspect of it called the Creator because God itself is the one who defined Mahapralaya and everything is part of the Dream of God.
The Divine Presence:

Attack Potency: High Complex Multiverse level (Exists far beyond the Mahapralaya and defined her, being the eternal background essence that unites everything and from which all things originated through its “Ocean of Love.” All gods are thoughts existing inside its mind, all the immeasurably-layered creation is part of its dream)

Footnotes:
  • The Divine Presence is the Supreme God of DC Comics with a capital "G" as the background essence that overlays all, The Source, The Presence, Monitor-Mind being aspects of that same whole. Everything originates from the Divine Presence, even Pralaya who is the timeless void from which the Multiverse emerged through the Oneness which splintered into Duality — light, darkness, order, chaos, and entered into a dualistic struggle which caused an explosion of Love and brought about the birth of the Multiverse.
    • Do not confuse the Divine Presence with the Presence from Vertigo or Monitor-Mind The Overvoid even though they are similar in nature. Monitor-Mind was later retconned by author Joshua Williamson as the dualistic opposite of the Great Darkness called "The Light" which the Divine Presence transcends and birthed them with all notions of duality as well.
 
Last edited:
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Here is what I would put:

Pralaya:

Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level (Her physical avatar swallowed the five-dimensional Realm of Now and destroyed all directions of time and space throughout the Multiverse) | Complex Multiverse level(Exists far beyond Creation as the personification of the Sea of Brahma, the primordial void from which the Multiverse emerged and to which all Creation will eventually return. Precedes and can supposedly absorb the Creator, an aspect of God)

Keys: Avatar | True Form

Footnotes:
  • It has been said that Pralaya is God's Unconscious, but "God's Unconscious" is related to be one of the aspects of God because the function of Pralaya is the dissolution of creation into darkness when God decides that it is time to return to an unconscious state, hence why Pralaya's was “restricted” until the time of the Sleep of Brahma (Mahapralaya), which is more explicit through 1988's Doctor Fate, in which DeMatteis portrays God as the one who defined Creation and Mahapralaya.
    • Pralaya does not precede God but an aspect of it called the Creator because God itself is the one who defined Mahapralaya and everything is part of the Dream of God.
The Divine Presence:

Attack Potency: High Complex Multiverse level (Exists far beyond the Mahapralaya and defined her, being the eternal background essence that unites everything and from which all things originated through its “Ocean of Love.” All gods are thoughts existing inside its mind, all the immeasurably-layered creation is part of its dream)

Footnotes:
  • The Divine Presence is the Supreme God of DC Comics with a capital "G" as the background essence that overlays all, The Source, The Presence, Monitor-Mind being aspects of that same whole. Everything originates from the Divine Presence, even Pralaya who is the timeless void from which the Multiverse emerged through the Oneness which splintered into Duality — light, darkness, order, chaos, and entered into a dualistic struggle which caused an explosion of Love and brought about the birth of the Multiverse.
    • Do not confuse the Divine Presence with the Presence from Vertigo or Monitor-Mind The Overvoid even though they are similar in nature. Monitor-Mind was later retconned by author Joshua Williamson as the dualistic opposite of the Great Darkness called "The Light" which the Divine Presence transcends and birthed them with all notions of duality as well.
Click to expand...
Those justifications seem insufficient.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Those justifications seem insufficient.
Click to expand...
I say those are just fine. An aspect of Pralaya managed to collapse the entire time stream at the Heart of Cronus. In a split moment, all directions of time and space literally came back to her and all Creation including Heaven and Hell went back to her.

This is not counting she is the Sea of Brahma and her true nature is the nothingness before everything including Light and Darkness. Plus she can dissolute any version of a Creator who are aspect of the Divine Presence.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
I say those are just fine. An aspect of Pralaya managed to collapse the entire time stream at the Heart of Cronus. In a split moment, all directions of time and space literally came back to her and all Creation including Heaven and Hell went back to her.

This is not counting she is the Sea of Brahma and her true nature is the nothingness before everything including Light and Darkness. Plus she can dissolute any version of a Creator who are aspect of the Divine Presence.
Click to expand...
Saying that fails to provide evidence for that many transcendences. You would need to provide a direct explanation for each level.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Saying that fails to provide evidence for that many transcendences. You would need to provide a direct explanation for each level.
Click to expand...
Ok, we already agree that the Multiverse is 2-A, and Creation as a whole is Low 1-C including realms like Heaven and Collective Unconscious.

An aspect of Pralaya managed to undo all of Creation in no time. She already is transcendent of the Creation and the vast in Ocean of Love from which duality was dissolves into the fire that burst into all of Creation. That's part is only a small part of the Ocean of Nothing and all that was undone by an aspect of the infinite nothingness came from.

In her True Form which is the entirety of the Ocean of Love and God’s unconscious in the in manifest field would consume even the Creator an aspect of God, whomever it is that birth all that through the act of duality.

I don't see how this isn't sufficient enough to warrant her Low 1-C for her aspect and 1-C for her True Form.
 
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