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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

Antvasima said:
See here please:

Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

I have applied the discussed changes. Is it alright?
 
Just_a_Random_Butler said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

I have applied the discussed changes. Is it alright?
Click to expand...
I think so, but it would be best with confirmations from @Deagonx , @Elizio33 , and @IdiosyncraticLawyer .
 
Just a note that the following interview gives me great hope that James Gunn will treat Superman and other DC Comics characters very well. Grant Morrison has a great grasp of how they are at their best.

www.interviewmagazine.com

Grant Morrison - Interview Magazine

With two new series—perhaps his bleakest yet—the groovy magus of comics proves yet again to be the great polymath visionary of the form.
www.interviewmagazine.com www.interviewmagazine.com
 
Antvasima said:
Just a note that the following interview gives me great hope that James Gunn will treat Superman and other DC Comics characters very well. Grant Morrison has a great grasp of how they are at their best.

www.interviewmagazine.com

Grant Morrison - Interview Magazine

With two new series—perhaps his bleakest yet—the groovy magus of comics proves yet again to be the great polymath visionary of the form.
www.interviewmagazine.com www.interviewmagazine.com
Click to expand...
Completely agreed. One of my favourite interviews of all time.
 
M3X_2.0 said:
Currently, we have profiles with "Post-Crisis", "Post-Flashpoint" and "Rebirth" names.

How about we change them to the original and official name?

Pre Crisis -> Earth One.

Post Crisis -> New Earth.

Post Flashopoint -> Prime Earth.

Rebirth -> Prime Earth - Rebirth.

Superman's Rebirth profile would become "Superman (Prime Earth - Rebirth)"

Prime Earth nomenclature includes both N52 and Rebirth phases, so it should be fine.
Click to expand...
I mean that's what DC Wiki has been doing since a very long time, so it strikes me a lot how come we haven't been doing it as well. But in all honestly, in my opinion we should keep the original format because even if we simplify which universe those characters are from, there are still multiple versions of those characters from those universes for example look at Superman.
Superman (disambiguation)
 
Last edited:
Publication history of Superman

While Wikipedia's format of Superman isn't all that accurate, but at least they are being specifically by mentioning that they are talking about Clark Kent/Kal-El version of Superman and not any other versions of Supermen. So I guess we can follow Wikipedia's format instead?
 
Antvasima said:
I think so, but it would be best with confirmations from @Deagonx , @Elizio33 , and @IdiosyncraticLawyer .
Click to expand...
It's good. Now, moving on, I wanted to look over the tiers on the cosmology page to see if they're adequately explained.

Grant Morrison's/Scott Snyder's/James Tynion IV's Cosmology​

  1. The Orrery of Worlds is 2-C for containing 52 universes and Hypertime is 2-A for storing infinite universes. This is straightforward with no further elaboration needed.
  2. The Sphere of the Gods is 2-C for containing 8 realms that exist on a higher plane of existence than the Orrery and Hypertime but without evidence for qualitative superiority. Straightforward enough.
  3. The Fifth Dimension is 5D Low 1-C because it transcends the multiverse's 4D axis and the Monitor Sphere is also 5D Low 1-C because it sits slightly higher than the Fifth Dimension. Straightforward enough.
  4. The Sixth Dimension is 6D Low 1-C because it dwarfs everything else in creation, even the Fifth Dimension. Straightforward enough.
  5. Monitor-Mind The Overvoid/The Source/The Presence is 7D 1-C because it entirely transcends the entire DC cosmology and views it as a small "flaw" in its infinite consciousness. Straightforward enough.
Overall, this cosmology is straightforward in its tiers and requires no immediate rewriting.

J.M. DeMatteis' Cosmology​

  1. The multiverse is 2-A because there are infinite universes. No explanation is needed.
  2. Heaven is 5D Low 1-C because it transcends the material realms with days and places that transcend days and places. Simple enough.
  3. The totality of creation is High 1-B. I've already explained why this rating is invalid and is just a holdover from before the discussion finished, so that part of the paragraph should be removed.
  4. Mahapralaya/Pralaya/Sea of Brahma is Low 1-C, possibly 1-C, but I fail to see how its explanation can justify that. It exists as the infinite ocean that dwarfs and birthed creation, which is sufficient justification for 6D Low 1-C if we remove High 1-B from the equation, but I don't see where "possibly 1-C" comes from.
  5. The Divine Presence/The Smile/God is 1-C, possibly High 1-C, but again, I fail to see how its explanation can justify that. It exists as the ultimate reality that transcends even Mahapralaya, which is sufficient justification for 7D 1-C if we accept my interpretation of Mahapralaya, but I don't see where "possibly High 1-C" comes from. Even as it now stands, "possibly High 1-C" doesn't seem warranted, as Mahapralaya's "possibly 1-C" doesn't specify to what degree.
I believe at least three things in this cosmology need a rewrite (Remove High 1-B, make Mahapralaya/Pralaya/Sea of Brahma 6D Low 1-C, make The Divine Presence/The Smile/God 7D 1-C), the first of which staff has already agreed to.

Vertigo's Cosmology​

  1. The Presence's creation is 2-A for having infinite timelines. This section is extremely barebones with no scans displayed on the page, and its justification seems a bit weak (Having infinite possible futures doesn't exactly imply infinite timelines).
  2. Heaven, Silver City, and Hell are 5D Low 1-C because they transcend and dwarf creation. Simple enough, and my gripes with 2-A's justification don't affect this because transcending anything in Tier 2 is Low 1-C.
  3. Beyond this point, Vertigo's cosmology explanation is longer than the other two by a wide margin, so I'll just summarize my gripes quickly. A lot of the characters in this section are Low 1-C, possibly 1-C, and the final entity is 1-C, which seems inadequately explained for just about all of them, so I'll need someone to walk me through the tiers and explain.
This cosmology is probably the least readable of the three on the page right now and needs some major reformatting to make it more understandable, which I don't know where to begin with.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
I believe at least three things in this cosmology need a rewrite (Remove High 1-B, make Mahapralaya/Pralaya/Sea of Brahma 6D Low 1-C, make The Divine Presence/The Smile/God 7D 1-C), the first of which staff has already agreed to.
Click to expand...
Sure, that's fine.

IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
The Presence's creation is 2-A for having infinite timelines. This section is extremely barebones with no scans displayed on the page, and its justification seems a bit weak (Having infinite possible futures doesn't exactly imply infinite timelines).
Click to expand...
The scan of the many Lucifers in the void would indicate that the possibilities are real, but to a certain extent each of the cosmologies utilizes some baseline information that is present throughout the verse, even if it is not specified clearly within one of the authors cosmologies. Infinite timelines for each universe is more or less a baseline assumption.

IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Beyond this point, Vertigo's cosmology explanation is longer than the other two by a wide margin, so I'll just summarize my gripes quickly. A lot of the characters in this section are Low 1-C, possibly 1-C, and the final entity is 1-C, which seems inadequately explained for just about all of them, so I'll need someone to walk me through the tiers and explain
Click to expand...
My understanding is it concerns whether or not Elaine, the Presence, Lucifer, and Michael should be treated as having superiority to the Silver City, and if they scale to the void.
 
Deagonx said:
There are no indications of Nil being a higher level of infinity to the Fifth Dimension.
Click to expand...
Im saying how does the Monitor sphere sit above the Fifth Dimension when we know Mxy showed the entire map when he claimed it runs on imagination.

Not that honestly that scan was accurate to begin with, the fact that Mxy showed the Source wall as a part of the realms defined by imagination when we know according to Snyder that the Fifth Dimension is like below the Source wall by a bit.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Im saying how does the Monitor sphere sit above the Fifth Dimension when we know Mxy showed the entire map when he claimed it runs on imagination.

Not that honestly that scan was accurate to begin with, the fact that Mxy showed the Source wall as a part of the realms defined by imagination when we know according to Snyder that the Fifth Dimension is like below the Source wall by a bit.
Click to expand...
The specifics are debatable depending on who you ask, but what's important is that they aren't treated as two separate levels of infinity.
 
Deagonx said:
The specifics are debatable depending on who you ask, but what's important is that they aren't treated as two separate levels of infinity.
Click to expand...
I have not mentioned any levels of infinity. I am talking about why the Monitor Sphere scales to the Fifth dimension. I assume it has something to do with the Monitors being fractions of Mar Novu?
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
I have not mentioned any levels of infinity
Click to expand...
I'm aware, I am saying for the sake of cosmological scaling, that's really the only important part.

NHTkenshin2 said:
I am talking about why the Monitor Sphere scales to the Fifth dimension. I assume it has something to do with the Monitors being fractions of Mar Novu?
Click to expand...
They could both be said to transcend the Orrery.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
It's good. Now, moving on, I wanted to look over the tiers on the cosmology page to see if they're adequately explained.

Grant Morrison's/Scott Snyder's/James Tynion IV's Cosmology​

  1. The Orrery of Worlds is 2-C for containing 52 universes and Hypertime is 2-A for storing infinite universes. This is straightforward with no further elaboration needed.
  2. The Sphere of the Gods is 2-C for containing 8 realms that exist on a higher plane of existence than the Orrery and Hypertime but without evidence for qualitative superiority. Straightforward enough.
  3. The Fifth Dimension is 5D Low 1-C because it transcends the multiverse's 4D axis and the Monitor Sphere is also 5D Low 1-C because it sits slightly higher than the Fifth Dimension. Straightforward enough.
  4. The Sixth Dimension is 6D Low 1-C because it dwarfs everything else in creation, even the Fifth Dimension. Straightforward enough.
  5. Monitor-Mind The Overvoid/The Source/The Presence is 7D 1-C because it entirely transcends the entire DC cosmology and views it as a small "flaw" in its infinite consciousness. Straightforward enough.
Overall, this cosmology is straightforward in its tiers and requires no immediate rewriting.

J.M. DeMatteis' Cosmology​

  1. The multiverse is 2-A because there are infinite universes. No explanation is needed.
  2. Heaven is 5D Low 1-C because it transcends the material realms with days and places that transcend days and places. Simple enough.
  3. The totality of creation is High 1-B. I've already explained why this rating is invalid and is just a holdover from before the discussion finished, so that part of the paragraph should be removed.
  4. Mahapralaya/Pralaya/Sea of Brahma is Low 1-C, possibly 1-C, but I fail to see how its explanation can justify that. It exists as the infinite ocean that dwarfs and birthed creation, which is sufficient justification for 6D Low 1-C if we remove High 1-B from the equation, but I don't see where "possibly 1-C" comes from.
  5. The Divine Presence/The Smile/God is 1-C, possibly High 1-C, but again, I fail to see how its explanation can justify that. It exists as the ultimate reality that transcends even Mahapralaya, which is sufficient justification for 7D 1-C if we accept my interpretation of Mahapralaya, but I don't see where "possibly High 1-C" comes from. Even as it now stands, "possibly High 1-C" doesn't seem warranted, as Mahapralaya's "possibly 1-C" doesn't specify to what degree.
I believe at least three things in this cosmology need a rewrite (Remove High 1-B, make Mahapralaya/Pralaya/Sea of Brahma 6D Low 1-C, make The Divine Presence/The Smile/God 7D 1-C), the first of which staff has already agreed to.

Vertigo's Cosmology​

  1. The Presence's creation is 2-A for having infinite timelines. This section is extremely barebones with no scans displayed on the page, and its justification seems a bit weak (Having infinite possible futures doesn't exactly imply infinite timelines).
  2. Heaven, Silver City, and Hell are 5D Low 1-C because they transcend and dwarf creation. Simple enough, and my gripes with 2-A's justification don't affect this because transcending anything in Tier 2 is Low 1-C.
  3. Beyond this point, Vertigo's cosmology explanation is longer than the other two by a wide margin, so I'll just summarize my gripes quickly. A lot of the characters in this section are Low 1-C, possibly 1-C, and the final entity is 1-C, which seems inadequately explained for just about all of them, so I'll need someone to walk me through the tiers and explain.
This cosmology is probably the least readable of the three on the page right now and needs some major reformatting to make it more understandable, which I don't know where to begin with.
Click to expand...
@Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @Eficiente @PrinceofPein @LuciferDC099

What do you think?
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
The Sphere of the Gods is 2-C for containing 8 realms that exist on a higher plane of existence than the Orrery and Hypertime but without evidence for qualitative superiority. Straightforward enough
Click to expand...
What i want says is not really tier Upgrade, just to say that to reach the sphere you need a range higher than 2-A, I think it should be said on the cosmology page
 
Reality Warping: (Each hit from Diana shakes stars)
On wander woman's page.
I can't make this shit up. Who approved this 💀
 
Please link to the page in question. Perhaps it was vandalised without anybody noticing yet.
 
Antvasima said:
Please link to the page in question. Perhaps it was vandalised without anybody noticing yet.
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

Wonder Woman (Post-Flashpoint)

Then YOU come down here and do it! You come down here and choose who lives and who dies! Get down here in the dirt with the rest of us! Climb down out of Olympus or wherever the hell you're hiding and DO SOMETHING!. Wonder Woman is a fictional character appearing in American comic books...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Antvasima said:
Please elaborate.
Click to expand...
the Joker in the episode tried to turn into Batman in a twisted way, but since you know if there is a new Batman, there must be a new Joker, so he created a deadly poison that transforms and kill people by raising their "laughter" levels, and he gave a specific variant to Batman to become the new Joker even if he is dead due the Poison
 
Okay. Perhaps Scott Snyder was inspired by that episode then?
 
Two things:
  1. Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics has this example for illogical scaling: "Wonder Woman has been injured by regular bullets, but is stronger than Wonder Girl (Cassandra Sandsmark), who has caused Superboy Prime to spit blood with a kick, who has overpowered The Darkest Knight, who killed Perpetua, who is one of The Hands of Creation. (1-A regular bullets)". DC isn't 1-A anymore, so should this be removed from the list?
  2. DC's verse page says the DC universe in pre-Crisis and post-Crisis were accepted as infinite, but that was rejected in the new cosmology page, so this section should probably be removed. However, the cosmology split only covers Post-Crisis, New 52, and Rebirth, not Earth-Two or Pre-Crisis, so those should still be addressed at some point.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Two things:
  1. Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics has this example for illogical scaling: "Wonder Woman has been injured by regular bullets, but is stronger than Wonder Girl (Cassandra Sandsmark), who has caused Superboy Prime to spit blood with a kick, who has overpowered The Darkest Knight, who killed Perpetua, who is one of The Hands of Creation. (1-A regular bullets)". DC isn't 1-A anymore, so should this be removed from the list?
Click to expand...
I just updated the statistic to Low 1-C.
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
  1. DC's verse page says the DC universe in pre-Crisis and post-Crisis were accepted as infinite, but that was rejected in the new cosmology page, so this section should probably be removed. However, the cosmology split only covers Post-Crisis, New 52, and Rebirth, not Earth-Two or Pre-Crisis, so those should still be addressed at some point.
Click to expand...
@Deagonx @Elizio33 @Firestorm808

Are any of you willing to handle that please?
 
Which do yall prefer?​
il_fullxfull.1983216666_az0b.jpg
Fr0_m2zXwAEo8Hn.jpg:large
 
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