DC Cosmology: Revising the Tiers

[Elizio33]

Hello! Following this thread and with the new tiering system of @Ultima_Reality, it is now time to revise our current tiers for the DC Comics Cosmology. Since, from what i understood, there are threads about revising the DeMatteis and the Vertigo cosmologies that are still ongoing, this thread would be specifically for the Crisis/Modern Cosmology, and in the process, why not update some of the Orrery of Worlds stuff.

Given that Wildstorm have technically been merged with the mainstream DC Universe with Flashpoint in 2011, and with the recent Outsiders story involving Wildstorm's Snowflake, the Orrery of Worlds should be 11-D instead of 5-D for having eleven dimensions, of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe and are mostly empty or static dimensions. This would upgrade the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds to High 1-C to be the "Bulk" containing those dimensions, and the Orrery of Worlds for containing the Bleed.

How this would affect the rest?

The Sphere of the Gods, Comic Book Limbo, Monitor Sphere, Dark Multiverse, Divine Continuum, Fifth Dimension, Sixth Dimension, Greater Omniverse, Unseen Council will be upgraded to 1-B for having qualitative superiority over the 11-D Orrery of Worlds.

Now, let's talk about the god tiers. Despite the ambiguity made by the different approaches of various authors over the years, the narrative has suggested or outright stated that The Source, Mind-Monitor The Overvoid/Light of Creation are of equal nature and stature in the DC Cosmology, all giving rise to, encompassing, and sustaining everything in the Greater Omniverse, and existing as completely transcendent to all space and time, in which forms and ideas surrender and lose their meaning in the void. This should upgrade these three entities to 1-A for transcending all space and time and utterly surpassing everything of the lower reality, being beyond any boundary.

More to come!

 

[Elizio33]

@Antvasima @Deagonx @DarkDragonMedeus @IdiosyncraticLawyer @VeryGoofyToddler @Elizhaa

Thoughts ?

 

[Antvasima]

This seems fine to me at least.

@Emirp sumitpo @Firestorm808 @Ultima_Reality

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Agree

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I have some concerns about this:

1. The higher-dimensional scans are from a Wildstorm series called Planetary. How canonical are they?
2. The additional seven dimensions being "folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments" seems to indicate that their size is insignificant and thus not qualified for higher tiers.
3. The reasoning for the god-tiers being 1-A seems poorly elaborated for qualitative superiority.

 

[StorytellingDemonKing]

I think everything looks alright except for this:

Now, let's talk about the god tiers. Despite the ambiguity made by the different approaches of various authors over the years, the narrative has suggested or outright stated that The Source, Mind-Monitor The Overvoid/Light of Creation are of equal nature and stature in the DC Cosmology, all giving rise to, encompassing, and sustaining everything in the Greater Omniverse, and existing as completely transcendent to all space and time, in which forms and ideas surrender and lose their meaning in the void. This should upgrade these three entities to 1-A for transcending all space and time and utterly surpassing everything of the lower reality, being beyond any boundary.

Nothing in the 2nd scan seems like good justification for 1-A, you seem to have added "all" to "space and time". I don't even think there's anything here for even Low 1-A, rather, upscaling higher into 1-B.

 

[Eseseso]

Hello! Following this thread and with the new tiering system of @Ultima_Reality, it is now time to revise our current tiers for the DC Comics Cosmology. Since, from what i understood, there are threads about revising the DeMatteis and the Vertigo cosmologies that are still ongoing, this thread would be specifically for the Crisis/Modern Cosmology, and in the process, why not update some of the Orrery of Worlds stuff.

Given that Wildstorm have technically been merged with the mainstream DC Universe with Flashpoint in 2011, and with the recent Outsiders story involving Wildstorm's Snowflake, the Orrery of Worlds should be 11-D instead of 5-D for having eleven dimensions, of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe and are mostly empty or static dimensions. This would upgrade the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds to High 1-C to be the "Bulk" containing those dimensions, and the Orrery of Worlds for containing the Bleed.

How this would affect the rest?

The Sphere of the Gods, Comic Book Limbo, Monitor Sphere, Dark Multiverse, Divine Continuum, Fifth Dimension, Sixth Dimension, Greater Omniverse, Unseen Council will be upgraded to 1-B for having qualitative superiority over the 11-D Orrery of Worlds.

This is fine

Now, let's talk about the god tiers. Despite the ambiguity made by the different approaches of various authors over the years, the narrative has suggested or outright stated that The Source, Mind-Monitor The Overvoid/Light of Creation are of equal nature and stature in the DC Cosmology, all giving rise to, encompassing, and sustaining everything in the Greater Omniverse, and existing as completely transcendent to all space and time, in which forms and ideas surrender and lose their meaning in the void. This should upgrade these three entities to 1-A for transcending all space and time and utterly surpassing everything of the lower reality, being beyond any boundary.

Seems ok?

More to come!

Yay

 

[Deagonx]

The higher-dimensional scans are from a Wildstorm series called Planetary. How canonical are they?

Wildstorm was an independent comic label that was later absorbed by DC. Elements of Wildstorm were introduced into DC at large, but I would be wary of accepting anything cosmology related from a Wildstorm story.

The additional seven dimensions being "folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments" seems to indicate that their size is insignificant and thus not qualified for higher tiers.

I agree, but I also think the language used to describe them has other problems as well:

"Nevertheless, any dimensional traveller with sufficient skill and power can visit them. Since they are outside the boundaries of normal space in any relatively normal universe, these seven dimensions are static and empty realms useful only as places to rest or undergo repairs."​

That makes them sound more like locations unto themselves. It doesn't really make sense to visit a single spatial dimension "to rest or undergo repairs."

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don’t see any Q>F to suggest realms outside Creation are ontologically superior to the Multiverse. So the basis of beyond time and space needs more context. Though, like I said this would be easily resolved if we just include Flash Story to which the Shadow of Garden/Gallery of Moment is flat-out 1-A. So, that would give the Source, Overvoid, and Light one layer and the Presence two layer.

Though, the Presence should flat-out be 1-A. The other from just that dial hero scan is Low 1-A. That again is easily fix with the Flash story.

I know that Outsider(2023) can work but I don’t really know if the Authority guidebook is useable due to the incoherent language. However, I’ll support it, it just needs to be explained very carefully.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I agree, but I also think the language used to describe them has other problems as well:

"Nevertheless, any dimensional traveller with sufficient skill and power can visit them. Since they are outside the boundaries of normal space in any relatively normal universe, these seven dimensions are static and empty realms useful only as places to rest or undergo repairs."​

That makes them sound more like locations unto themselves. It doesn't really make sense to visit a single spatial dimension "to rest or undergo repairs."

It does say space-time(3 spatial + 1 time) exists as in normal space at the boundary of the Universe. As oppose to the rest existing beyond there, but due to them being so compact and tight would be hard to gauge doesn’t really denote anything. That’s literally how it’s defined in M-Theory “Supergravity” that they’re so tiny and clumped together very tightly.

The final sentence is a bit weird, but given the Authority adheres to M-Theory, it’s still works. The last part just seems to be there own twist since it’s still a fictional Universe with fictional interpretations of theorem in real life.

 

[Deagonx]

As oppose to the rest existing beyond there, but due to them being so compact and tight would be hard to gauge doesn’t really denote anything. That’s literally how it’s defined in M-Theory “Supergravity” that they’re so tiny and clumped together very tightly.

I understand, I'm just saying that later sentence about them being realms is problematic.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

DC should definitely move up to at least 1-A characters again

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I understand, I'm just saying that later sentence about them being realms is problematic.

Yeah, but there’s always going to be problem. I believe with sufficient explanation on that regard, we can look past it.

I mean Morrison did take some element from the Authority story so there’s that(he also wrote some). That guy really likes the super small string theory. So I do believe it’s somewhat compatible, the guidebook just seems weird since they’re meant to be taken sometime with a grain of salt. I, fully, do believe that the Cosmology of DC does have 11-D. It’s been mentioned quite a few times by now.

 

[Eseseso]

Hello! Following this thread and with the new tiering system of @Ultima_Reality, it is now time to revise our current tiers for the DC Comics Cosmology. Since, from what i understood, there are threads about revising the DeMatteis and the Vertigo cosmologies that are still ongoing, this thread would be specifically for the Crisis/Modern Cosmology, and in the process, why not update some of the Orrery of Worlds stuff.

Given that Wildstorm have technically been merged with the mainstream DC Universe with Flashpoint in 2011, and with the recent Outsiders story involving Wildstorm's Snowflake, the Orrery of Worlds should be 11-D instead of 5-D for having eleven dimensions, of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe and are mostly empty or static dimensions. This would upgrade the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds to High 1-C to be the "Bulk" containing those dimensions, and the Orrery of Worlds for containing the Bleed.

How this would affect the rest?

The Sphere of the Gods, Comic Book Limbo, Monitor Sphere, Dark Multiverse, Divine Continuum, Fifth Dimension, Sixth Dimension, Greater Omniverse, Unseen Council will be upgraded to 1-B for having qualitative superiority over the 11-D Orrery of Worlds.

Now, let's talk about the god tiers. Despite the ambiguity made by the different approaches of various authors over the years, the narrative has suggested or outright stated that The Source, Mind-Monitor The Overvoid/Light of Creation are of equal nature and stature in the DC Cosmology, all giving rise to, encompassing, and sustaining everything in the Greater Omniverse, and existing as completely transcendent to all space and time, in which forms and ideas surrender and lose their meaning in the void. This should upgrade these three entities to 1-A for transcending all space and time and utterly surpassing everything of the lower reality, being beyond any boundary.

More to come!

Btw, will this bump up the dimensions above the Sphere of Gods?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Given that Wildstorm have technically been merged with the mainstream DC Universe with Flashpoint in 2011, and with the recent Outsiders story involving Wildstorm's Snowflake, the Orrery of Worlds should be 11-D instead of 5-D for having eleven dimensions, of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe and are mostly empty or static dimensions. This would upgrade the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds to High 1-C to be the "Bulk" containing those dimensions, and the Orrery of Worlds for containing the Bleed.

The several extra-dimensions are described as compactified and monumentally small, so they don't meet the standards for quantitatively superior dimensions.

Now, let's talk about the god tiers. Despite the ambiguity made by the different approaches of various authors over the years, the narrative has suggested or outright stated that The Source, Mind-Monitor The Overvoid/Light of Creation are of equal nature and stature in the DC Cosmology, all giving rise to, encompassing, and sustaining everything in the Greater Omniverse, and existing as completely transcendent to all space and time, in which forms and ideas surrender and lose their meaning in the void. This should upgrade these three entities to 1-A for transcending all space and time and utterly surpassing everything of the lower reality, being beyond any boundary.

More to come!

Gotta disagree with this too. The scans just say "time and space" and not "all," and I don't think they really describe a state of existence beyond all possible dimensional spaces or the very archetype of dimensionality.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The several extra-dimensions are described as compactified and monumentally small, so they don't meet the standards for quantitatively superior dimensions.

This isn’t genuinely true since they’re not even on the same level of existence. Space-Time or 4D are physics based dimension that compose the Universe. The extra 7 hyper dimension are in hyperspace due to the conception with M-Theory and as the guidebook states “true time-space” and beyond the default notion of 4D. They’re described as small because they’re not accessible by any means to technology just yet with the scan describing it would take the best to get to them.

The notion of size isn’t that detracts quantitatively superiority. Its work the same way as those dimensions are above the first four, due to their nature, they’re incredible small, yet they’re still higher dimensions as seen.

 

[Floxiaaa]

Hello! Following this thread and with the new tiering system of @Ultima_Reality, it is now time to revise our current tiers for the DC Comics Cosmology. Since, from what i understood, there are threads about revising the DeMatteis and the Vertigo cosmologies that are still ongoing, this thread would be specifically for the Crisis/Modern Cosmology, and in the process, why not update some of the Orrery of Worlds stuff.

Given that Wildstorm have technically been merged with the mainstream DC Universe with Flashpoint in 2011, and with the recent Outsiders story involving Wildstorm's Snowflake, the Orrery of Worlds should be 11-D instead of 5-D for having eleven dimensions, of which four visible dimensions constitute a single universe while the seven highest dimensions are folded so tightly that they are undetectable by any scientific instruments invented in the 20th or early 21st centuries. These higher dimensions are outside the conventional space in any normal universe and are mostly empty or static dimensions. This would upgrade the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds to High 1-C to be the "Bulk" containing those dimensions, and the Orrery of Worlds for containing the Bleed.

How this would affect the rest?

The Sphere of the Gods, Comic Book Limbo, Monitor Sphere, Dark Multiverse, Divine Continuum, Fifth Dimension, Sixth Dimension, Greater Omniverse, Unseen Council will be upgraded to 1-B for having qualitative superiority over the 11-D Orrery of Worlds.

Now, let's talk about the god tiers. Despite the ambiguity made by the different approaches of various authors over the years, the narrative has suggested or outright stated that The Source, Mind-Monitor The Overvoid/Light of Creation are of equal nature and stature in the DC Cosmology, all giving rise to, encompassing, and sustaining everything in the Greater Omniverse, and existing as completely transcendent to all space and time, in which forms and ideas surrender and lose their meaning in the void. This should upgrade these three entities to 1-A for transcending all space and time and utterly surpassing everything of the lower reality, being beyond any boundary.

More to come!

First of all, it does not say that it is beyond space and time. It says that it is outside of space and time. There is a big difference between them, it should be reminded. The most probable issue is that overvoid is Low 1-A, but there is nothing 1-A here, so I do not agree with 1-A. It is neutral for Low 1-A.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Mostly agree with VeryGoofyToddler.

 

[Floxiaaa]

Mostly agree with VeryGoofyToddler.

Me too

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Are we allowed to help the OP to get some confirmation on the ratings?

 

[Floxiaaa]

Are we allowed to help the OP to get some confirmation on the ratings?

I don't understand

 

[Yokoahh5743]

Mostly agree with VeryGoofyToddler.

Me too

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don't understand

Well, 1-A seems very shaky right now. However, I can suggest that we use the Gallery of Moments also called the Garden of Shadow as 1-A. Ultima and I discussed this a while back but it seems 1-A. A place in the Speedforce that's beneath everything(also beyond the Source Wall) deeper than the concept of time and space as things of the mind here as just pure abstractions. Given that Wally literally can affect speech bubbles and dialogue suggests that its existence can affect all things.

Now, Metal considers the Speed Force as one of its connective energies. In the more recent comics, it was a gift from the species called the Arc Angles who suggest a race of highly powerful beings that emanated Reality and all its level. Wally with the Speedforce managed to affect all levels of Reality. So Speedforce for 1-A with the Presence scaling to it since we've accepted the Presence as the Creator exists beyond duality, and everything in Existence came simply by it breathing it all.

 

[Floxiaaa]

Well, 1-A seems very shaky right now. However, I can suggest that we use the Gallery of Moments also called the Garden of Shadow as 1-A. Ultima and I discussed this a while back but it seems 1-A. A place in the Speedforce that's beneath everything(also beyond the Source Wall) deeper than the concept of time and space as things of the mind here as just pure abstractions. Given that Wally literally can affect speech bubbles and dialogue suggests that its existence can affect all things.

Now, Metal considers the Speed Force as one of its connective energies. In the more recent comics, it was a gift from the species called the Arc Angles who suggest a race of highly powerful beings that emanated Reality and all its level. Wally with the Speedforce managed to affect all levels of Reality. So Speedforce for 1-A with the Presence scaling to it since we've accepted the Presence as the Creator exists beyond duality, and everything in Existence came simply by it breathing it all.

So yes, this is possible, but for this crt, my definitive answer to 1-A is no.