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DB Toei revision

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HammerStrikes219 said:
Didn’t Buu learn Instant Transmission from Goku and/or someone that has IT? If so, I think Instant Transmission require a ki signature IIRC.
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Yeah, and we know IT can cross over to the afterlife. So yeah, not really a contradiction imo. IT has interdimensional range as long as you are able to feel a ki signature.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Yeah, and we know IT can cross over to the afterlife. So yeah, not really a contradiction imo. IT has interdimensional range as long as you are able to feel a ki signature.
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Yeah, that is alright.
In any case, still neutral to the CRT, not leans towards agreeing nor leaning towards disagreeing since I am indifferent about the outcome
 
I will summarize the relevant argument for people who may not read the entire thread.

The proposal:
This statement exists in DBZ anime. As the episode comes to a finish, the narrator ends it off by saying "Separated by time and space, the harsh trials that the sleeping father and son must face continue on and on."
Goku is in the afterlife and Gohan is on Earth, and they are said to be separated by time and space. Taken literally, this would imply both realms have their own space-time continuums, making a universe in DBZ anime a 2-C structure.

My disagreement:
We treat the anime as being separate from the manga because it adds a fair few things on its own. However it is still an adaptation of the original manga. And the exact same scene exists in the manga with a similar dialogue by the narrator.
The original chapter in the manga ends at the same scene where the episode in the anime ends. The narration states this in the very next page of the manga. "On Heaven and Earth, Goku and Gohan's training begins!!! Two generations, two kinds of training"

The above context is important to know where the statement actually came from. Because the chapter ends exactly where the episode ends, and the next chapter starts with the similar narration that is used to close off the episode. It's obvious both are trying to go for the same thing. This context is supporting evidence for my main points:

1. They are poetic dialogues meant to smoothen a transition between two chapters/episodes. The anime just adapted it up from the manga and changed it a little bit.

2. One could claim that the anime has it because they wanted to emphasize that both realms are separate space-time continuums. However, the statement is not part of any explanation regarding the structure of the universe. It is not part of any exposition dump regarding what the realms are or how they work. It is part of the same poetic sentence that talks about Goku and Gohan needing to go through harsh training. Which leads me to believe that is was never meant to be taken as a fact-based statement, but it is a throwaway statement which was never repeated or confirmed later on.

3. The original statement has the words "two generations" referring to Goku and Gohan. The adapted statement has the words "separated by time" referring to the same people. It is entirely possible that this "separated by time" part is not referring to space-time continuum shenanigans, but the time difference (age difference or generation gap) between the father and son. The "separated by space" part would just be an adaptation of 'On heaven and Earth" part, referring to the two realms.

Whatever may be the case, the statement in itself does not seem 100% reliable in the context of the realms having separate space-time continuums, and such a huge change should not be based on a questionable statement like this alone. At best this can act like a supporting evidence for some other concrete information that should be acting as the primary evidence.

@Promestein what do you think?
 
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The entire premise of your argument is revolved around a manga narration, which invalid because Toei anime is a different continuity, we use Toei anime narration not manga narration despite they have similar storyline. The Heaven and Earth, yes is some kind of flowery language, but they belong to manga not anime. Also if you use Heaven and Earth in manga panel then Heaven and Earth can still be interpreted as different dimension
 
Welp, this is probably going to Be last reply, or not hehe.
1- You have to prove "seperated by space and time" it's poetic, in my time in this wiki. "Seperated by space and time" or statement close to this have never been poetic. Especially when it's stated via the narrator [Which, in db acts as an omniscient source of information, either to give exposition, or to explain some stuff, or to sometimes spoil future events.] "Smooth transition" and? So? that literally doesn't justify calling it hyperbole, at all. You need actually compelling proof besides "Well it's just transition".
2- Adaptation or not, there is a reason we have the manga and anime as both separated, you can't use each other to debunk the other, literally goes against how we treat the.
3- And yes, it acts as a way for us to understand the cosmology because: A- we are in a territory that is unknown to us readers [Aka the afterlife] B'- What you have just said goes completely against the nature of how dbz uses the narrator and data books, to explain stuff. Also it was stated later on 1- When pan commented about goku being stuck in between space times. 2- the same dimensional berries that separates The HTC [a space time, but planet sized ones] are the ones who separate the realms, 3- the world dimensions also either refers to realms, dimensions , and space times.
4- "It could also mean just the time gap" and it also actually means that they are literally seperated by space and time, also db isn't even that poetic tbh, besides statements like "i can rule the universe" or "i am the strongest" which is presented in any media that has battle and space elements into it.

SO IN CONCLUSION:
Using the manga to debunk the anime is wrong, the statements aren't for show or spices when the context is pretty cut and clear, the fact that you are hiding behind to main arguments which are "Hyperbole" and "Manga said something" is already a red flag, the fact that they are separated by space times has been brought up multiple times. [GOKU being stuck in a place between space times, the world dimension is used to refer to timelines and space times and alternative dimensions, the same dimensional barriers that separate two space times [The living universe and HTC] separates all realms].
 
The flowery language's argument its iffy as f**k, like can you prove that the entire statement its a hyperbole? As far as we aware nothing indicate that the narrator was giving inaccurate/exaggerated information, it is literally no different than any other statements about universes/dimensions/realms having their own space-time.
 
Like I said earlier, even if you pretend like the manga doesn't exist and the anime was never adapted from it, the points stand on their own. See:

1. It is a poetic dialogue meant to smoothen a transition between two episodes.

2. The statement is not part of any explanation regarding the structure of the universe. It is not part of any exposition dump regarding what the realms are or how they work. It is part of the same poetic sentence that talks about Goku and Gohan needing to go through harsh training. Which leads me to believe that is was never meant to be taken as a fact-based statement, but it is a throwaway statement which was never repeated or confirmed later on.

3. It is entirely possible that this "separated by time" part is not referring to space-time continuum shenanigans, but the time difference (age difference or generation gap) between the father and son.

Whatever may be the case, the statement in itself does not seem 100% reliable in the context of the realms having separate space-time continuums, and such a huge change should not be based on a questionable statement like this alone. At best this can act like a supporting evidence for some other concrete information that should be acting as the primary evidence.

(The third one might seem very weird without the added context, but the first two are still there.)
 
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Stefano4444 said:
The flowery language's argument its iffy as f**k, like can you prove that the entire statement its a hyperbole? As far as we aware nothing indicate that the narrator was giving inaccurate/exaggerated information, it is literally no different than any other statements about universes/dimensions/realms having their own space-time.
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I replied to that point here.
 
AKM sama said:
Like I said earlier, even if you remove the manga comparison (which is there only to add context), the points stand on their own. See:

1. It is a poetic dialogue meant to smoothen a transition between two episodes.

2. The statement is not part of any explanation regarding the structure of the universe. It is not part of any exposition dump regarding what the realms are or how they work. It is part of the same poetic sentence that talks about Goku and Gohan needing to go through harsh training. Which leads me to believe that is was never meant to be taken as a fact-based statement, but it is a throwaway statement which was never repeated or confirmed later on.

3. It is entirely possible that this "separated by time" part is not referring to space-time continuum shenanigans, but the time difference (age difference or generation gap) between the father and son.

Whatever may be the case, the statement in itself does not seem 100% reliable in the context of the realms having separate space-time continuums, and such a huge change should not be based on a questionable statement like this alone. At best this can act like a supporting evidence for some other concrete information that should be acting as the primary evidence.
Click to expand...
You don't get it, do you?
1- you need actual proof that it's poetic, prove it, give us proof besides "well it could be because I said so".
2- i love it when you say it doesn't have anything to do with cosmology when it refers to people being in different places in the cosmology, one in a place we know [gohan: earth] and a place we aren't familiar with [goku : The afterlife]. It is meant to be taken as that, prove it doesn't. You literal argument is "Hyperbole because you see, ther are separated, training differently, the narrator states they are separated by space and time , and it is hyperbole because "
3- Well, can you prove it? We aren't going to go with "likely means this, even the context, later evidence says no to that."
4- yes, it is, because you haven't giving us actual proof, a statement about two beings, in Different dimensions, later on stated to be seperated by space and time .....is not an evidence for them being separated by space and time. Also you haven't addressed other points.
Using hyperbole , flowery language and hype without supporting it? Check. Using non canon sources to debunk this? Check. Using likely and highly because? check. Repeating the same arguments? Check. Not responding to other points? Check. Saying, one of the clearest statements about being separated by space and time is only hyperbole? Check. Latter context doesn't support your view? Check.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
I understand why the space times statements is iffy as a main point, but what about the GT statement? That seems much more reliable.
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Where is the GT statement? The only GT statement that I found in that entire episode is this. It says that the Sugoroku space is a different dimension of space. It says nothing about afterlife and mortal universe being separate space-time continuums. The preview statement (which has no official translation and doesn't exist anywhere in the main episode making it absolutely useless in CRTs) says more or less the same thing, that it's a separate space and nobody can help Goku from the outside.
 
AKM sama said:
Where is the GT statement? The only GT statement that I found in that entire episode is this. It says that the Sugoroku space is a different dimension of space. It says nothing about afterlife and mortal universe being separate space-time continuums. The preview statement (which has no official translation and doesn't exist anywhere in the main episode making it absolutely useless in CRTs) says more or less the same thing, that it's a separate space and nobody can help Goku from the outside.
Click to expand...
It's in the OP, the translation is in the OP too, it says it's between space times, durectly confirming that there is more than one space time. It being in a preview doesn't mean it can't be used and the context of the statement is not flowery language and it's there for exposition. If there is no official translation then we can just ask for it to be translated, I think there's a thread for that.
 
I have already covered it before. Previews are not episodes. If it is not in between the 22-minute length of an episode, it did not happen. Many things can change in a week between the release of two episodes. They can do a complete 180 and not include something in the episode that was explicitly in the preview because of last-minute changes. It would just mean they changed their minds.

What was said in the episode was "Sugoroku space is a different dimension of space".
The fan translation of the preview states this: "That place is between space-times, no one can help you from the outside."
We don't know how reliable this fan translation is and like any other fan translation it is prone to errors, but from the context of the actual episode, it seems like it was just trying to convey "that place is a separate space/dimension, no one can help you from the outside."
 
The kanji for "space time" is in the statement

If the only debunk is "previews" then I still agree with the OP, since I think the opposition has failed to give solid counter arguments
 
AKM sama said:
I have already covered it before. Previews are not episodes. If it is not in between the 22-minute length of an episode, it did not happen. Many things can change in a week between the release of two episodes. They can do a complete 180 and not include something in the episode that was explicitly in the preview because of last-minute changes. It would just mean they changed their minds.

What was said in the episode was "Sugoroku space is a different dimension of space".
The fan translation of the preview states this: "That place is between space-times, no one can help you from the outside."
We don't know how reliable this fan translation is and like any other fan translation it is prone to errors, but from the context of the actual episode, it seems like it was just trying to convey "that place is a separate space/dimension, no one can help you from the outside."
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I disagree with not using it because it's a preview. Previews are not always wrong, they can sometimes be wrong but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't use them at all. The space times statement here is consistent with the last space time statement, and there is no reason for it to change or be altered.
 
I agree about that we cannot scale from previews.
 
Antvasima said:
I agree about that we cannot scale from previews.
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Preview...stated by an omniscient narrator...to describe what's going to happen ...is unreliable? Because?
[The next comment isn't directed to you btw].
Ahem ahem : let's examine the counter argument.
The counterargument fall into three different categories .
1- flowery, hype, spices, hyperbole : which is an argument Used by people who don't want to debate against an argument, thus they hide behind it. so invalid.
2- the manga panel says: using non canon source, invalid, might as well use DB games aye
3- it's just preview: and? It's state by an omniscient narrator, the argument is invalid.
 
Is it just me or are most the staff completely biased against dragon ball as most of the dragon ball crts I’ve seen here have been mostly disagreed by the staff?

anyways, i agree with everything said in the OP
 
Previews recurrently use hyperbole exaggerations in order to lure viewers to watch more with something that seems exciting.
 
Coolboy6 said:
Is it just me or are most the staff completely biased against dragon ball as most of the dragon ball crts I’ve seen here have been mostly disagreed by the staff?
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No, most of the staff, including me and AKM, like Dragon Ball. However, given that we are more informed about the contents, we may turn more critical when evaluating revisions as well.
 
No, the argument is perfectly valid. According to my experience, previews are recurrently trying to hype up the next episode to get as many viewers as possible, and as such shouldn't be taken as matter-of-fact gospel.

However, I haven't followed this discussion in-depth, so I am not the best staff member to comment here.
 
Disagree with Buhan and DBZ scaling, but I can perfectly see at very least a “possible 2C“ rating for GT god tiers given the evidences.
 
Antvasima said:
No, the argument is perfectly valid. According to my experience, previews are recurrently trying to hype up the next episode to get as many viewers as possible, and as such shouldn't be taken as matter-of-fact gospel.

However, I haven't followed this discussion in-depth, so I am not the best staff member to comment here.
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I agree, now prove that preview specifically is used to hype stuff up, you can hype stuff up and be literal and serious. In fact, most of db preview either tells us what's going to happen, or what's happening, and when it generates hype, it's either literal or vague enough to not break the main plot points if the story. It's your turn, to prove this preview is hyperbole. If you can't, then the evidence will be, and stay valid.
 
Antvasima said:
No, the argument is perfectly valid. According to my experience, previews are recurrently trying to hype up the next episode to get as many viewers as possible, and as such shouldn't be taken as matter-of-fact gospel.
Click to expand...
That can be upto debate...
What shouldn't be up for debate however is this...


AKM sama said:
"Separated by time and space, the harsh trials that the sleeping father and son must face continue on and on
Click to expand...
How on earth can this straightforward sentence be mistaken for a hyperbole??
This is straight facts, like even basic grammatical comprehension tells us that.
But steel manning this point and assuming flower text......does that matter?? Does it actually compromise the message meant??
Absolutely not.
AKM sama said:
The original chapter in the manga ends at the same scene where the episode in the anime ends. The narration states this in the very next page of the manga. "On Heaven and Earth, Goku and Gohan's training begins!!! Two generations, two kinds of training"
Click to expand...
Dismissing the fact that that using different continuity is a no no....which a can of worms mods might regret opening since same logic can be applied on other Dragon Ball projects which might lead to upgrades.

Lets look at sentence structure....and compare both manga and anime
First) ""Separated by space and time"" is equivalenced with "On Heaven and Earth" which is a no brainer.
2nd) "Goku and Gohan, two Generations, two kinds of training" is clearly equivalenced with "... Father and son...."
While manga directly doesn't mention which generations both persons are.....the anime directly gives us relation..."Father and Son".
So ""time"" was never even used as an analog.

So its completely false comparison.

Even basic sentence structure reveals that separate space-time means seperate space-time literally.
 
Separated by space-time is definitely not a statement that generates hype in viewers except for the 0.001% who care enough about power scaling. It is not incredibly wild to think that realms that are spatially separated also have a different flow of time. I get what you're saying about the placement of the statement, but it doesn't matter; this is the most clear cut way to prove they are separate space-time continuums. It's a WOG statement that happens inside of an episode about two realms that are already agreed to be spatially separate. I don't know what to say about the previews whether it can or can't be used, but Ant brought up that they are used to generate hype and just like I said in my point above, calling two realms different space-times isn't some insane hyperbole that generates hype
 
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