DB Toei revision

[BleachHollow]

Now it's two mods against the thread vs two mods agreeing with it + multiple knowledgeable members About the anime agreeing with this. Isn't it enough?

It would be enough if it wasn't a popular verse but I believe it usually takes like a dozen staff members to approve big revisions. Good luck getting this through. Unless this will be moved to Staff only thread and closed as soon as possible

 

[MrKerf]

Oh boy, this is such a mess. Is there anyone else from staff we haven't asked? So far both sides are adamant and won't budge, so maybe we can get another fresh view?

 

[Tarang123]

I think because some new stuff has been brought up, I might as well put in my opinion.

As for the separated by space and time thing, the statement isn’t automatically invalid, but it’s value has dropped. It doesn’t have as much impact even if no proper contradictions have been offered.

as for buuhan’s vice shout, I wouldn’t even give that 3A environmental destruction as hes just destroying the walls between dimensions to cause a chain reaction.

as for the time room thing, I’m a bit neutral because if the manga, albeit not really canon to the anime, suggests that it’s out of context, then it might be the same for the anime

that being said, “it’s flowery language” or whatever isn’t an argument. A counter-interpretation is required to put the original interpretation in “danger”. I feel like that hasn’t been properly done by the opposition.

so I’m neutral, but leaning to agreeing

 

[AKM sama]

Considering we have all the bureaucrats + Every who agree that the statement about Goku and Gohan shouldn't be the sole reason for this proposed upgrade, with others like ByAsura and Medeus being neutral, I'd say we shouldn't drag out this thread any longer. At least Ottavio and Fluffy also agreed with that line of thought (although they wanted the GT preview to act as the primary evidence which is an even bigger no-no).

 

[Tarang123]

What implementations, if any, would be put in with the current amount of agreement that we have

Edit: didn’t word that properly. To simplify what I said above, what conclusions do we currently have

 

[Greenshifter]

@AKM sama I'd say wait for Zamasu, did he say anything here lately?

Edit: Also Promestein didn't even comment on the Gohan and Goku statement no?
I'd say at least a possibly is still warranted at this point considering your alternative interpretation of the Gohan and Goku statement has been countered by Gilver and not a lot of people seem convinced by it. As such if you don't have an alternative interpretation that is more likely than the one which makes the cosmology 2-C then a possibly should be given.

Btw shouldn't a preview be treated somewhat similar to a WoG, an official source of information that gets discarded when the show contradicts it, especially when it seems to be a part of the episode itself if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Antvasima]

If we close this thread soon, I would like to say that I am sorry if several of our members feel disappointed. If it seems like it is hard to get Dragon Ball revisions passed, it is not because our staff have anything against the series, it is because we like, and as such are more familiar with, it, which automatically makes us more discerning when evaluating the available information.

 

[AKM sama]

what conclusions do we currently have

None that would lead to any implementation. Buuhan doesn't have a profile, and considering Heaven to be universe-sized won't change the already accepted size we use as far as I am aware.

 

[Tarang123]

None that would lead to any implementation. Buuhan doesn't have a profile, and considering Heaven to be universe-sized won't change the already accepted size we use as far as I am aware.

I mean, if heaven is treated as some kind of universal sized construct, wouldn’t gt goku still be 3A due to shaking the entire thing? Or would that only be 3B?

 

[Orange]

One final rebuttal:
This is a final rebuttal to all counter arguments.
1- In dbz, and Gt, there are multiple Statements of space times. "Seperated by space and time." Which is stated by an omniscient narrator, pretty convinced. Although the counter argument that is that only used to smooth things out, and that the manga gives it a poetic feel, although this is hilariously wrong and I'll explain why: that isn't a rebuttal, that's like saying statements that explains the cosmology Are "just there for show", plus even using the manga to help your argument immediately drops your validity, or else we will be using other non canon sources.
2- there are two statements in dbgt, one a preview that stays "Goku is stuck between space times" and another one in the episode says "a place between Space and time", a pretty cut clear statement. But the rebuttal says it's from a preview thus it doesn't count: why? Why exactly it doesn't count? "Well preview generates hype and mostly wrong." Then, prove this one is wrong, especially when there is another statement that supports it in the show. thus the rebuttal is wrong.
Now I'll be Giving some ssupporing arguments for why the DB macrocosm is a 2-C structure:

1- The word dimension [which is used to describe the living universe, the demon realm and the kai realm and even the whole macrocosm]. The word dimension in db is also used to refer to separate space times [The HTC] and timelines [Gogeta has a statement being the strongest in all dimensions, which refers to realms and timelines , and all DB movie are in alternative dimension, aka a different timeline(s)] meaning each realm that's stated to be a dimension would be a seperate space time.
2- Remember the buuhan feat? Welp. we know that HtC and the living universe are separated by dimensional walls, aka meaning these walls separate two space times, when buuhan did his feat, the dimensional walls between dimensions are getting warped. thus we can conclude, That the dimensional walls are used to to separate space times, They separate HTC from the living universe , and the universe from other realms, meaning each realm is A seperate space time.
3- The living universe Is described to be based on ours, running on sience. And since our universe is a space time, and since the living universe is based on ours, it's a space time.

 

[AKM sama]

I mean, if heaven is treated as some kind of universal sized construct, wouldn’t gt goku still be 3A due to shaking the entire thing? Or would that only be 3B?

Would need to be calced. Not sure how much change will reflect on the value or how we will determine the size of the afterlife just by heaven alone.

 

[AKM sama]

I'd say wait for Zamasu, did he say anything here lately?

He has already replied to my arguments earlier. There has been no new argument that was relevant that popped up. So there's nothing new he has to say in reply to the points that he hasn't already said.

Also Promestein didn't even comment on the Gohan and Goku statement no?

She did. I specifically pinged her for that point of contention where I summarized the arguments and she had the same view as me.

Btw shouldn't a preview be treated somewhat similar to a WoG, an official source of information that gets discarded when the show contradicts it, especially when it seems to be a part of the episode itself if I'm not mistaken.

The preview is not treated to be a part of the episode itself, let alone the WoG.

 

[Tarang123]

The preview is not treated to be a part of the episode itself, let alone the WoG.

Technically, it’s still part of the source material, so I think it should still be valid for use

 

[AKM sama]

Before I close the thread, there are some points of note that I would like to point out. Some of the stuff I meant to reply to earlier and some of the stuff I ignored because of leniency. Ant has been too polite and lenient throughout the thread, but someone has to make things clear.

the mods gonna just leave a comment then lock the thread so no one will try to counter their arguement.

No keep the negativity you know how VSBW treaths DB

Comments written solely to vilify the mods in a CRT or try to claim bias are incendiary that do nothing but derail the thread, and even turns it toxic. Refrain from such comments in the future if you are going to participate in any threads, or you'll instantly get threadbanned or worse if I am on the scene. As Lephyr said earlier, antagonizing staff members only makes things worse. It's much better to just work with them. All staff members were also regular members. They are not a different species that came from somewhere else.

came off a little strong here in my opinion by implying he hasn't seen DBZ because anyone that has would know X.

Strong, maybe. Rude, no. I was actually trying to be generous by implying he hasn't seen DBZ. The only other alternative was to imply that he is deliberately leaving out context to wank. Because that's how bad that argument was, and that would have been rude of me.

that's a neat way to completely dismiss any and all arguments without being forced to make reasonable counter arguments. that rule is basically "freedom of thought and freedom of discussion = bad." do you really expect anyone to follow that? if it's so easy to debunk, then do it again. you shouldn't have to hide behind a rule like you are now.

No, that's a convenient way to dismiss all arguments that have been repeated and debunked countless times. I have no obligation to debunk it one more time (even though I did). And that is why the rule exists. Nobody wants to waste their time doing the same song and dance day in and day out.

you can argue the former is worse simply because everything is dictated by the same people that will have the same opinions and biases

Those people are chosen from among the regular members only because they show levelheadedness and can take an unbiased approach when making decisions. They have better sense of judgment that's why they are promoted, generally speaking. The other alternative only gets you a scenario where a lot of people only want to see their favorite verses/characters be stronger due to bias, which effects their decision making capability. Do I think Zamasu_Chan (or a few others) are users who have terrible sense of judgment? No. Just that their threshold for what passes as sufficient evidence in DB is very low. They are generally fine when it comes to other verses which they don't have as much attachment to. And that's true for majority of the users on the site, in every fanbase.

mod decision should be irrelevant when they are outnumbered this heavily. they hold no special authority or knowledge that makes what they say automatically more valuable in terms of a debate.

what i'm irritated with specifically is the blatant authoritarianism/abuse of power here to just ignore everything and do whatever one guy wants. it also reeks of elitism and narcissism.

If you think this is "Popularity Battles Wiki" where decisions are made based on number of people agreeing with an argument, then you're in the wrong place. 728 people agreeing with something is irrelevant when the reasons and logic don't pass the basic filters to be accepted. Kindly avoid repeating accusations like "authoritarianism", "abuse of power", "elitism", "narcissism", etc. in the future if you want to be a part of this community. Take this as a warning.

omega shenron now is canon to the moro arc, Ss4 is canon to B.O.G, and did you know janemba was a relative to jiren? I missed that plot line, Infinite zamasu is now canon to the manga right? Oh, and demigra is definitely canon to OD DB, multiversal+ kid goku when?

I give this 10/10 for being the best argument I have ever seen, besides "saitama is one punch man thus he beats anyone".

This can only be seen as an attempt at trolling. You were already reported and warned once, and you apologized. You seriously need to improve your aggressive attitude as soon as possible or you won't be able to be a part of this site for much longer.

"Poetic language" Just sound like lazy ways to debunk, to be honest. We're an indexing wiki, these arguments aren't and shouldn't be acceptable in a place like this.

This is not a reply to Ottavio only but to all those who go "ah poetic language bad excuse get better argument". These arguments should always be acceptable in a place like this. They were. They are. And they will continue to be. A text-based media/fiction has, does and will continue to use statements that are not meant to be taken literally. It is an irreplaceable and very essential tool in written media. This isn't a science research paper where every sentence is a literal fact. So you guys seriously need to get it out of your heads that your favorite show doesn't use it and each and every statement is meant to be taken literally.

Is it just me or are most the staff completely biased against dragon ball as most of the dragon ball crts I’ve seen here have been mostly disagreed by the staff?

Like I said above, these kinds of comments have no value in a thread. I can also say something like "my fellow DB supporters are biased and upgrade-hungry since there are so many threads trying to upgrade based on insufficient/shoddy evidence that need to be rejected again and again". Maybe you need to look at it from another angle that the arguments were just not acceptable enough to be agreed by staff. Your comment is just a way to turn threads toxic and breed hostility. Refrain from such comments in the future if you are going to participate in any threads, or you'll instantly get threadbanned or worse if I am around.