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DB Toei revision

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Hmmm speaking of “separated by time. Separated by space”, I am rather curious if this is referring to the distance of two worlds as both worlds and the universe is mentioned as one can argued that a single universe (Low 2C) doesn’t necessarily have to been 2C, but if rather, it can contained worlds as after all, there are times when they made worlds ≠ universe in certain context.

But overall, pretty much neutral as I staying out of this as it stays.
 
God900 said:
Anyways, I agree with this CRT!!
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Hmmm just like to point it out the scan I provided mentions “whole universe” which make me thinks this involved the afterlife being part of the universe overall rather than it being complete and entirely separated from the universe as Elder Kai mentioned that Majin Buu/Evil Buu will come to the afterlife in the scans I provided.

Not saying it is 2C, just mentioning it… That reminds me isn’t there the time when Goku actually managed to teleport Cell from Earth to King Kai’s Planet (which is in the afterlife/otherworld I think)?

Edit: Just found it.
 
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After reading the OP, I'm in agreement 2-C. However I do have my own thoughts regarding the OP. My comment is directed towards the OP, I haven't read through the entirety of the comments because many comments are unnecessary and I'm busy right now.
Zamasu_Chan said:
Here Popo states that all of the past present and future are created in this room. The other realms, such as the afterlife, weren’t established yet and the other universes don’t seem to exist, so this statement does seem to imply the past present and future of the living universe.
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The other realms not being established yet isn't a solid argument in my opinion because we know for a fact that they do exist regardless of them not knowing yet in verse. So when something new is brought in to the cosmology it would still abide by the rules of what has been established unless proven otherwise (which you do in the next piece of evidence but I'm just pointing out that on it's own, this statement could still include the other realms).
Zamasu_Chan said:
It says "Separated by time and space, the harsh trials that the sleeping father and son must face continue on and on." Goku is in the afterlife and Gohan is on earth. The Narrator says they’re both separated by time and space. That's a super blatant statement that heavily implies that the universe and afterlife are two different spacetime continuums.
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I agree with this and don't see it as flowery language. It states they are separated by space and time which can't really be interpreted another way other than them being in separate space and time. Now if he said something like "the universe separates the two" than it would be flowery language because the it doesn't say space and time.
Zamasu_Chan said:
Here Shin straight up calls the living universe "the temporal world", which is another straight forward statement.
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While this supports the living world having it's own time flow. The way he says it makes it sound like the afterlife doesn't. Why call the living world "the temporal world" if both have their own time flow? By logic, both are "temporal worlds". It just sees odd in my honest opinion.
Zamasu_Chan said:
This was rejected because "Heaven revolves around a sun" or "a planet can't be universe sized", but mainly because of these two photos. Pixel scaling these specific images gives heaven a volume of 264405000000m^3 which is the size of a mountain. This makes no sense because all mortals in the universe are supposed to fit on heaven. We also know in DB that not everything is drawn to scale all the time.
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I will remain neutral on this point, leaning towards agreeing with you. In my opinion visuals almost always beat statements so if Heaven is shown to be a planet, it being stated to be as big as the universe seems illogic. I'm not a fan of pixel scaling either but I will agree that it makes absolutely no sense for it to be planetary in size when it's suppose to be capable of housing mortals across the entire universe which would include the people from the past, present, and obviously the future people who will die. So unless they think only a planets worth of mortals will make it to Heaven throughout all of history, while 99.9% of the universe's population will go to HFIL... I doubt it's only a planet in size.
Zamasu_Chan said:
I got a friend to translate it for me and it says:
Goku: あれ？ あの世にしては変なとこに来ちまったぞ｡
Huh? I've come to a strange place in Otherworld.
Pan: そこは 時空のはざまで 外からじゃ誰にも助けられないんですって！
That place is between space-times, no one can help you from the outside.
Another clear as day statement, as the space Goku is in is between the universe and otherworld.
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If that's the legit translation than I'd say it's good evidence.
Zamasu_Chan said:
Those are several spacetime statements so I think that’s more that enough evidence that U7 in DBZ, GT, Xenoverse and Heroes, is 2-C.
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Overall, yes, i do think 2-C is logical.
Zamasu_Chan said:

The scaling​

Otherworld​

Due to the heaven statement, the 3-Cs would likely get upgraded with an updated calc.

Buu​

This feat gets such a bad wrap. Outside Space is the ability Buuhan uses when trying to destroy the universe. This has been dismissed as just hax but wouldn’t something like that need proof? As shown here, Buuhan is simply shooting out ki. It's stated here that Super Buu did it because of his raw power, not hax. The first statement even says that his energy would cover the universe itself and it’s shown destroying the boundaries of the universe. So I think it should be at least "possibly Low 2-C".

GT​

Omega Shenron is 3-A for his universal statements. With the evidence provided, Omega and SSJ4 Gogeta would be 2-C.
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I'd argue Buu's feat "could" be power and not hax but my knowledge on Dragon Ball Z ain't what it use to be so I'm neutral regarding that but the other scaling stuff seems fine.
 
Thank you to all staff members who are helping out here, and to the regular members who defended me.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
While this supports the living world having it's own time flow. The way he says it makes it sound like the afterlife doesn't. Why call the living world "the temporal world" if both have their own time flow? By logic, both are "temporal worlds". It just sees odd in my honest opinion.
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The op left out this as I like to elaborate o


HammerStrikes219 said:
Okay, now I am back.


In regards to the Dragon Z statement with Supreme Kai and I think Elder Kai, it was stated by Elder Kai that the Universe will been finished and that Buu potentially can come to destroy them as well in the Other World/afterlife I think.



And yes, it is from Episode 266 of Dragon Ball Z.

Now I gonna unfollow this thread since I am neutral overall to the CRT as well.

Edit: Also the statement for Temporal world take place before the statement of the universe being finished chronologically speaking.
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The statement about the temporal world is oddly enough before the “whole universe” statement made by Elder Kai and also Buu being able to come to the afterlife as I think Buu was said to being in the afterlife before and he also didn’t have instant transmission till later although that was a off screen thing too.

Edit:
 
Don't know about DBZ anime, but in every explanation of the afterlife in the Buu Saga atleast in DBZ Kai, Goku says that the afterlife does not have a flow of time, we interpret that differently I think to mean that you don't get tired in the afterlife because we've already seen from like the Saiyan Saga that the afterlife does have time. Shin calling the living universe the temporal world is just going back to the previous statements where Goku says that the afterlife does not have a flow of time. I don't know if that would downgrade the feat, but we also know from previous arcs that the afterlife most definitely has time
 
Akm-sama, after examining your rebuttals, you never gave your proof of "flowery language" and "add spices". Can you prove it?
 
Some things depend on interpretation. You have a statement. It is either meant to be taken literally, or it is not.

Can you prove the statement is meant to be taken literally? No. For that you'd need additional context. So let's check.

Is the statement given to us by someone who is explaining the cosmology? No.

Is the statement given to us as part of exposition regarding the universe and afterlife? No.

Does the statement has additional context surrounding it that supports it being something not meant to be taken literally? Yes.

Now this is the only statement left. And honestly, this just looks like the anime tried adding some spice to the statement without giving any thought to the actual meaning behind it. First of all, it's not a statement meant to give exposition about the different realms. It's simply said to create hype for the next episode.
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The original statement in the manga is not that different from it either:
"On Heaven and Earth, Goku and Gohan's training begins!!! Two generations, two kinds of training"
The statement in the anime is just a spiced up version of this. Without any supporting evidence, I am not sold on the reliability of this statement.
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The narration states this in the very next page of the manga. The chapter ends exactly where the episode ends, and the next chapter starts with the same narration that is used to close off the episode. It's obvious both are trying to go for the same thing. They are poetic dialogues meant to smoothen a transition between two chapters/episodes. The anime just picked it up from the manga and changed the statement a little bit.
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I already explained in detail why the statement exists and for what function is was used.

"Just take the statement literally because it exists" is not an argument.
 
I am not using the manga to debunk the anime or cross-scaling the cosmology. I am showing why the statement is not meant to be taken literally and hence has almost no reliability. We treat the anime as not being canon to the manga but that doesn't mean the anime stopped being an adaptation of the manga.
 
AKM sama said:
Some things depend on interpretation. You have a statement. It is either meant to be taken literally, or it is not.

Can you prove the statement is meant to be taken literally? No. For that you'd need additional context. So let's check.

Is the statement given to us by someone who is explaining the cosmology? No.

Is the statement given to us as part of exposition regarding the universe and afterlife? No.

Does the statement has additional context surrounding it that supports it being something not meant to be taken literally? Yes.






I already explained in detail why the statement exists and for what function is was used.

"Just take the statement literally because it exists" is not an argument.
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1- Yes, statement like these should be taken literally when: A- there is nothing that supports Being a "hype statement" beyond you calling it that. B- it was a statement to give exposition, a way for us watchers to understand the cosmology better. C- The only reason it's hype or flowery because you said it is. "Seperated by time and space", a statement from the narrator is somehow flowery because ..you said it is. D- Using the manga...to debunk the anime...which is non canon....yup, totally makes sense, omega shenron now is canon to the moro arc, Ss4 is canon to B.O.G, and did you know janemba was a relative to jiren? I missed that plot line, Infinite zamasu is now canon to the manga right? Oh, and demigra is definitely canon to OD DB, multiversal+ kid goku when?
 
AKM sama said:
I am not using the manga to debunk the anime or cross-scaling the cosmology. I am showing why the statement is not meant to be taken literally and hence has almost no reliability. We treat the anime as not being canon to the manga but that doesn't mean the anime stopped being an adaptation of the manga.
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And? They are non canon, your rebuttal revolves around something non canon. That on itself, should be a red flag about why your arguments is just there for the sake of being dare.
1- using flowery language when the context was there to give details about the plot and cosmology
2- Using "add spices" because apparently DBZ Is a bland dish.
3- Using the manga, non canon to the anime, to prove your points.
I give this 10/10 for being the best argument I have ever seen, besides "saitama is one punch man thus he beats anyone".
 
Ganasto said:
Yeah, but you're using the manga as evidence to support your claim
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To support it, yes. Because the anime is an adaptation of the manga. It adapted things from the manga. And that statement falls under the same adaptation. Again, just because we do not treat the anime to be a canon source along the manga does not mean the anime stopped being an adaptation of the manga.

But my claim stands even without it. The statement does not stop being a tool for transition between episodes or it does not magically become a statement given as part of an exposition about the universe even if you don't consider the manga.
 
I definitely don't agree with throwing away a "separated by time and space" With the arguments the opposition has proposed.

"Transition between episodes" "Poetic language" Just sound like lazy ways to debunk, to be honest. We're an indexing wiki, these arguments aren't and shouldn't be acceptable in a place like this.

Also Anasu, try to moderate your tones.
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
"Transition between episodes" "Poetic language" Just sound like lazy ways to debunk, to be honest. We're an indexing wiki, these kind of arguments aren't acceptable here.
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It is because we are an indexing wiki which is why we should always be aware of what's poetic language not meant to be taken literally and what is exposition dump used to explain something. It is because we are an indexing wiki is why we should never take every statement literally no matter the context (one of which was pushed as the very first point in the OP despite being so wrong). Hell, we don't treat a direct statement of "beam made of light" for a light speed attack because we are an indexing wiki. So you're completely wrong in saying that. I personally think we have been very lenient in that regard on a wiki-wide basis and should be stricter when it comes to accepting any statement as fact.
 
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The "beam of light" analogy is quite bad, since we factually check in shows if said light acts like it would IRL or not.

Here instead, we're going into interpretations.

We have a "separated by time and space statement", referring to Gohan who's on Earth, and to Goku who's in the Afterlife, which we know is a separate dimension. Doesn't really seem that "Poetic" to me.
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
The "beam of light" analogy is quite bad, it is something we can check with visuals. We can check if said light acts like it would IRL or not.

We have a "separated by time and space statement", referring to Gohan who's on Earth, and to Goku who's in the Afterlife, which we know is a separate dimension. Doesn't really seem that "Poetic" to me.
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If I understanding this correctly, what Akm Sama meant that the narrator made the statement, and none of the characters actually mentioned the whole separated by time and space ever in the episode other than the narrator saying it.
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
If I understanding this correctly, what Akm Sama meant that the narrator made the statement, and none of the characters actually mentioned the whole separated by time and space ever in the episode other than the narrator saying it.
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Ok, but that's not a debunk at all. (Not attacking you, sorry if it came out that way)
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
If I understanding this correctly, what Akm Sama meant that the narrator made the statement, and none of the characters actually mentioned the whole separated by time and space ever in the episode other than the narrator saying it.
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I mean it was called a separate space-time again with the GT evidence in the OP, but apparently previews can't be used
 
Ganasto said:
I mean it was called a separate space-time again with the GT evidence in the OP, but apparently previews can't be used
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Actually “between space times” sound like they shared the same space in my opinion, but as it doesn’t say “it is a separate time space” tbh.

Still like to note I am neutral to the CRT for that matter.
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
Actually “between space times” sound like they shared the same space in my opinion, but as it doesn’t say “it is a separate time space” tbh.

Still like to note I am neutral to the CRT for that matter.
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Yeah, but we already know that the realms are spatially separated it's currently accepted though that they share the same time
 
AKM sama said:
Please read this comment that I made in reply to the OP, and then the OP's reply to that, and the reply to that, and so on.
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Since I didn't watch Dragon Ball, I can't really argue with your point again what Popo said.

However your argument about the "Separated by time and space" being flowery language is a no no in my honest opinion because it's blatant and clear, and we know for a fact they aren't in the same realm. Using the manga as supporting evidence is completely useless no matter what as we literally separate the two so until that changes I will ignore it as evidence. The only part of you argument for this point that I agree with is the fact that it was only mentioned by the narrator and not by the characters in verse so could potentially be a throw away line but if the GT scan is legit it would count towards them being separate.

I can agree with you point regarding the "temporal world" thing. As for your point regarding the size of Heavan, I'll repost what I said in my comment...

I will remain neutral on this point, leaning towards agreeing with you. In my opinion visuals almost always beat statements so if Heaven is shown to be a planet, it being stated to be as big as the universe seems illogic. I'm not a fan of pixel scaling either but I will agree that it makes absolutely no sense for it to be planetary in size when it's suppose to be capable of housing mortals across the entire universe which would include the people from the past, present, and obviously the future people who will die. So unless they think only a planets worth of mortals will make it to Heaven throughout all of history, while 99.9% of the universe's population will go to HFIL... I doubt it's only a planet in size.

I'll change my stance to neutral for now but I definitely don't completely disagree with the OP
 
Ganasto said:
Yeah, but we already know that the realms are spatially separated it's currently accepted though that they share the same time
Click to expand...
Are you referring to afterlife being sealed? There is evidence of Buu being able to physically travel to the afterlife I think as well as Goku being able to instantly teleporting Cell and himself in parts of the afterlife.
Like wasn’t it stated Buu kill one of the Kais or something? My knowledge is rusty to say the least.
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
Are you referring to afterlife being sealed? There is evidence of Buu being able to physically travel to the afterlife I think as well as Goku being able to instantly teleporting Cell and himself in parts of the afterlife.
Like wasn’t it stated Buu kill one of the Kais or something? My knowledge is rusty to say the least.
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We know wizards and witches in DB can travel to the afterlife (Baba) and Buu was with Bibidi at the time iirc
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
It all boils down to "we don't know", indeed. So I don't see it as a possible contradiction personally.
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Kinda as one will argued the teleportation require it to actually work in the same universe or at least have a cross dimensional range as in the case of Goku, I recall he needs to sense ki to teleport in his case IIRC.
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
Kinda as one will argued the teleportation require it to actually work in the same universe or at least have a cross dimensional range as in the case of Goku, I recall he needs to sense ki to teleport in his case IIRC.
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We only see Buu enter the afterlife and realm of the Kais in the anime through Instant Transmission. What happened in the past, we don't know how.
 
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