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DB Toei revision
- Thread starter Zamasu_Chan
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- dragon ball toei
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Hmmm speaking of “separated by time. Separated by space”, I am rather curious if this is referring to the distance of two worlds as both worlds and the universe is mentioned as one can argued that a single universe (Low 2C) doesn’t necessarily have to been 2C, but if rather, it can contained worlds as after all, there are times when they made worlds ≠ universe in certain context.
But overall, pretty much neutral as I staying out of this as it stays.
But overall, pretty much neutral as I staying out of this as it stays.
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ok. that's not really what i was trying to say but i dont care to explain
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Hmmm just like to point it out the scan I provided mentions “whole universe” which make me thinks this involved the afterlife being part of the universe overall rather than it being complete and entirely separated from the universe as Elder Kai mentioned that Majin Buu/Evil Buu will come to the afterlife in the scans I provided.
Not saying it is 2C, just mentioning it… That reminds me isn’t there the time when Goku actually managed to teleport Cell from Earth to King Kai’s Planet (which is in the afterlife/otherworld I think)?
Edit: Just found it.
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After reading the OP, I'm in agreement 2-C. However I do have my own thoughts regarding the OP. My comment is directed towards the OP, I haven't read through the entirety of the comments because many comments are unnecessary and I'm busy right now.
The other realms not being established yet isn't a solid argument in my opinion because we know for a fact that they do exist regardless of them not knowing yet in verse. So when something new is brought in to the cosmology it would still abide by the rules of what has been established unless proven otherwise (which you do in the next piece of evidence but I'm just pointing out that on it's own, this statement could still include the other realms).
I agree with this and don't see it as flowery language. It states they are separated by space and time which can't really be interpreted another way other than them being in separate space and time. Now if he said something like "the universe separates the two" than it would be flowery language because the it doesn't say space and time.
While this supports the living world having it's own time flow. The way he says it makes it sound like the afterlife doesn't. Why call the living world "the temporal world" if both have their own time flow? By logic, both are "temporal worlds". It just sees odd in my honest opinion.
I will remain neutral on this point, leaning towards agreeing with you. In my opinion visuals almost always beat statements so if Heaven is shown to be a planet, it being stated to be as big as the universe seems illogic. I'm not a fan of pixel scaling either but I will agree that it makes absolutely no sense for it to be planetary in size when it's suppose to be capable of housing mortals across the entire universe which would include the people from the past, present, and obviously the future people who will die. So unless they think only a planets worth of mortals will make it to Heaven throughout all of history, while 99.9% of the universe's population will go to HFIL... I doubt it's only a planet in size.
If that's the legit translation than I'd say it's good evidence.
Overall, yes, i do think 2-C is logical.
I'd argue Buu's feat "could" be power and not hax but my knowledge on Dragon Ball Z ain't what it use to be so I'm neutral regarding that but the other scaling stuff seems fine.
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The op left out this as I like to elaborate o
The statement about the temporal world is oddly enough before the “whole universe” statement made by Elder Kai and also Buu being able to come to the afterlife as I think Buu was said to being in the afterlife before and he also didn’t have instant transmission till later although that was a off screen thing too.
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Don't know about DBZ anime, but in every explanation of the afterlife in the Buu Saga atleast in DBZ Kai, Goku says that the afterlife does not have a flow of time, we interpret that differently I think to mean that you don't get tired in the afterlife because we've already seen from like the Saiyan Saga that the afterlife does have time. Shin calling the living universe the temporal world is just going back to the previous statements where Goku says that the afterlife does not have a flow of time. I don't know if that would downgrade the feat, but we also know from previous arcs that the afterlife most definitely has time
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Please read this comment that I made in reply to the OP, and then the OP's reply to that, and the reply to that, and so on.
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I disagree for the reasons AKM has given.
Vietthai96
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And, for what reason anyway. Flowery language???, Poetic Word????, or using manga to counter Toei anime???
Nullflowerblush
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Huh, never heard Mr Popo in Japanese before.
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Some things depend on interpretation. You have a statement. It is either meant to be taken literally, or it is not.
Can you prove the statement is meant to be taken literally? No. For that you'd need additional context. So let's check.
Is the statement given to us by someone who is explaining the cosmology? No.
Is the statement given to us as part of exposition regarding the universe and afterlife? No.
Does the statement has additional context surrounding it that supports it being something not meant to be taken literally? Yes.
I already explained in detail why the statement exists and for what function is was used.
"Just take the statement literally because it exists" is not an argument.
Can you prove the statement is meant to be taken literally? No. For that you'd need additional context. So let's check.
Is the statement given to us by someone who is explaining the cosmology? No.
Is the statement given to us as part of exposition regarding the universe and afterlife? No.
Does the statement has additional context surrounding it that supports it being something not meant to be taken literally? Yes.
I already explained in detail why the statement exists and for what function is was used.
"Just take the statement literally because it exists" is not an argument.
Vietthai96
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hold on, why you use manga to debunk anime, they are different continuity, this is cross-scaling cosmology
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I am not using the manga to debunk the anime or cross-scaling the cosmology. I am showing why the statement is not meant to be taken literally and hence has almost no reliability. We treat the anime as not being canon to the manga but that doesn't mean the anime stopped being an adaptation of the manga.
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Yeah, but you're using the manga as evidence to support your claim
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1- Yes, statement like these should be taken literally when: A- there is nothing that supports Being a "hype statement" beyond you calling it that. B- it was a statement to give exposition, a way for us watchers to understand the cosmology better. C- The only reason it's hype or flowery because you said it is. "Seperated by time and space", a statement from the narrator is somehow flowery because ..you said it is. D- Using the manga...to debunk the anime...which is non canon....yup, totally makes sense, omega shenron now is canon to the moro arc, Ss4 is canon to B.O.G, and did you know janemba was a relative to jiren? I missed that plot line, Infinite zamasu is now canon to the manga right? Oh, and demigra is definitely canon to OD DB, multiversal+ kid goku when?
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That's you giving it more meaning than it actually has, be careful with that.
Also, you might have to tone yourself in those last points.
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It literally says separated by time and space, if you take that as flowery how are you supposed to prove they are separate space-times? We already take the realms to be spatially disconnected, you're acting like them being separate space-times is the most wild thing possible and that it must be hyperbolic
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And? They are non canon, your rebuttal revolves around something non canon. That on itself, should be a red flag about why your arguments is just there for the sake of being dare.
1- using flowery language when the context was there to give details about the plot and cosmology
2- Using "add spices" because apparently DBZ Is a bland dish.
3- Using the manga, non canon to the anime, to prove your points.
I give this 10/10 for being the best argument I have ever seen, besides "saitama is one punch man thus he beats anyone".
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To support it, yes. Because the anime is an adaptation of the manga. It adapted things from the manga. And that statement falls under the same adaptation. Again, just because we do not treat the anime to be a canon source along the manga does not mean the anime stopped being an adaptation of the manga.
But my claim stands even without it. The statement does not stop being a tool for transition between episodes or it does not magically become a statement given as part of an exposition about the universe even if you don't consider the manga.
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I definitely don't agree with throwing away a "separated by time and space" With the arguments the opposition has proposed.
"Transition between episodes" "Poetic language" Just sound like lazy ways to debunk, to be honest. We're an indexing wiki, these arguments aren't and shouldn't be acceptable in a place like this.
Also Anasu, try to moderate your tones.
"Transition between episodes" "Poetic language" Just sound like lazy ways to debunk, to be honest. We're an indexing wiki, these arguments aren't and shouldn't be acceptable in a place like this.
Also Anasu, try to moderate your tones.
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It is because we are an indexing wiki which is why we should always be aware of what's poetic language not meant to be taken literally and what is exposition dump used to explain something. It is because we are an indexing wiki is why we should never take every statement literally no matter the context (one of which was pushed as the very first point in the OP despite being so wrong). Hell, we don't treat a direct statement of "beam made of light" for a light speed attack because we are an indexing wiki. So you're completely wrong in saying that. I personally think we have been very lenient in that regard on a wiki-wide basis and should be stricter when it comes to accepting any statement as fact.
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The "beam of light" analogy is quite bad, since we factually check in shows if said light acts like it would IRL or not.
Here instead, we're going into interpretations.
We have a "separated by time and space statement", referring to Gohan who's on Earth, and to Goku who's in the Afterlife, which we know is a separate dimension. Doesn't really seem that "Poetic" to me.
Here instead, we're going into interpretations.
We have a "separated by time and space statement", referring to Gohan who's on Earth, and to Goku who's in the Afterlife, which we know is a separate dimension. Doesn't really seem that "Poetic" to me.
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If I understanding this correctly, what Akm Sama meant that the narrator made the statement, and none of the characters actually mentioned the whole separated by time and space ever in the episode other than the narrator saying it.
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Ok, but that's not a debunk at all. (Not attacking you, sorry if it came out that way)
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I mean it was called a separate space-time again with the GT evidence in the OP, but apparently previews can't be used
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I am merely clarifying as basically if the statement was repeated again by a character or more than a character that supports on what the narrator has say, it will hold more weight to the whole separate time and space continuums part.
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Actually “between space times” sound like they shared the same space in my opinion, but as it doesn’t say “it is a separate time space” tbh.
Still like to note I am neutral to the CRT for that matter.
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Yeah, but we already know that the realms are spatially separated it's currently accepted though that they share the same time
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Since I didn't watch Dragon Ball, I can't really argue with your point again what Popo said.
However your argument about the "Separated by time and space" being flowery language is a no no in my honest opinion because it's blatant and clear, and we know for a fact they aren't in the same realm. Using the manga as supporting evidence is completely useless no matter what as we literally separate the two so until that changes I will ignore it as evidence. The only part of you argument for this point that I agree with is the fact that it was only mentioned by the narrator and not by the characters in verse so could potentially be a throw away line but if the GT scan is legit it would count towards them being separate.
I can agree with you point regarding the "temporal world" thing. As for your point regarding the size of Heavan, I'll repost what I said in my comment...
I will remain neutral on this point, leaning towards agreeing with you. In my opinion visuals almost always beat statements so if Heaven is shown to be a planet, it being stated to be as big as the universe seems illogic. I'm not a fan of pixel scaling either but I will agree that it makes absolutely no sense for it to be planetary in size when it's suppose to be capable of housing mortals across the entire universe which would include the people from the past, present, and obviously the future people who will die. So unless they think only a planets worth of mortals will make it to Heaven throughout all of history, while 99.9% of the universe's population will go to HFIL... I doubt it's only a planet in size.
I'll change my stance to neutral for now but I definitely don't completely disagree with the OP
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Are you referring to afterlife being sealed? There is evidence of Buu being able to physically travel to the afterlife I think as well as Goku being able to instantly teleporting Cell and himself in parts of the afterlife.
Like wasn’t it stated Buu kill one of the Kais or something? My knowledge is rusty to say the least.
Nullflowerblush
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I completely forgot that Kid Buu somehow made it to the Realm of the Kais millions of years ago.
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We know wizards and witches in DB can travel to the afterlife (Baba) and Buu was with Bibidi at the time iirc
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Yeah, but was that with teleportation or was it via physical means? Since it was off screen, we have no way of knowing how that goes.
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It all boils down to "we don't know", indeed. So I don't see it as a possible contradiction personally.
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Kinda as one will argued the teleportation require it to actually work in the same universe or at least have a cross dimensional range as in the case of Goku, I recall he needs to sense ki to teleport in his case IIRC.
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We only see Buu enter the afterlife and realm of the Kais in the anime through Instant Transmission. What happened in the past, we don't know how.
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