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DB Toei revision

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MrKerf said:
Can you summon other knowedgeble members here again before that? Including stuff, like Elizhaa and others.
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@Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @Promestein @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Dino_Ranger_Black @Dragonmasterxyz @Soldier_Blue @KLOL506 @Therefir @DemonGodMitchAubin @Ionliosite @UchihaSlayer96 @Migue79 @SomebodyData @CrimsonStarFallen @LordGriffin1000 @Starter_Pack @Theglassman12 @SamanPatou @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @ElixirBlue

Would you be willing to help us out here please? So far, AKM sama disagrees, DarkDragonMedeus is neutral, and I trust AKM's sense of judgement.
 
Antvasima said:
That is not realistic. Everything would devolve into popularity power with no quality control.
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authoritarianism is just the opposite extreme with equally bad results. it should be about logically evaluating arguments. your system is broken, as everyone has pointed out in this thread. there is no quality control if an extremely small group of people have the final say anyways. they can just abuse that as much as they want like you guys are now. no proper counter arguments, just that AKM is a mod and that's all that matters.
 
I am all for quality control, but not when it is a decision of one person, like here.
"That's too much power for one man to wield, too much temptation."
 
RandomGuy said:
authoritarianism is just the opposite extreme with equally bad results. it should be about logically evaluating arguments. your system is broken, as everyone has pointed out in this thread.
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The problem is... How do we actually measure or hold who is the most logical side? Specially when something can be interpreted in many ways.

That's the job of the staff. To be arbiters between two sides.

It's not perfect, and clearly can lead to abuse (I can think of so many cases I'd endured over my time here), but there's really no better alternative.
 
RandomGuy said:
authoritarianism is just the opposite extreme with equally bad results. it should be about logically evaluating arguments. your system is broken, as everyone has pointed out in this thread.
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Our system is the least bad option. We are not very authoritarian at all. Most of us are trying to be nice and helpful, and listen a lot to what the regular members say. We are just supposed to act as buffers against unreliable revisions. That is all.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Guys, please stop with the drama and bold accusations.
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Agreed.
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
The problem is... How do we actually measure or hold who is the most logical side? Specially when something can be interpreted in many ways.

That's the job of the staff. To be arbiters between two sides.

It's not perfect, and clearly can lead to abuse (I can think of so many cases I'd endured over my time here), but there's really no better alternative.
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Yes. Exactly. We are trying very hard to only let some of the most reliable and reasonable members become staff. That is all that we can do really.
 
Anyways is it possible to get more staff opinions, or are DDM and AKM's disagreements the end all be all?
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
The problem is... How do we actually measure or hold who is the most logical side? Specially when something can be interpreted in many ways.

That's the job of the staff. To be arbiters between two sides.

It's not perfect, and clearly can lead to abuse (I can think of so many cases I'd endured over my time here), but there's really no better alternative.
Click to expand...
if something is reasonably contested enough, even if one side has more people on it, it should be called off since it is heavily contested then. authoritarianism and a complete popularity contest where just a random side with more people on it are equally bad for the opposite reasons. hell, you can argue the former is worse simply because everything is dictated by the same people that will have the same opinions and biases, unlike if things were settled by normal people, as their opinions can change and new people can come and go. this site is locked down by a handful of people. think about that for a moment and tell me again that there isn't a better alternative. we are literally having one mod negate everyone else with no reasoning.

also I find it odd that Ant said that "we are not very authoritarian." maybe i'm wrong, but that comes off to me as "hey, we're only moderately authoritarian, so it's alright." kinda seemed like a lowkey admission that is worrisome.
 
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RandomGuy said:
if something is reasonably contested enough, even if one side has more people on it, it should be called off since it is heavily contested then. authoritarianism and a complete popularity contest where just a random side with more people on it are equally bad for the opposite reasons. hell, you can argue the former is worse simply because everything is dictated by the same people that will have the same opinions and biases, unlike if things were settled by normal people, as their opinions can change and new people can come and go. this site is locked down by a handful of people. think about that for a moment and tell me again that there isn't a better alternative. we are literally having one mod negate everyone else with no reasoning.
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I'm not agreeing with AKM negating everything alone. However, that the staff overall are to be the arbiters I do agree. That's literally what their position entails.

Believe me, I had entire threads closed because of one staff before, without giving me or anybody a chance for a rebuttal. I also had threads where I managed to convince those same people into agreeing. It's all about being able to properly debate.

Work with the staff and everything can go smoothly. Actively try to undermine them like in this thread and that's how you get rules against topics.
 
RandomGuy said:
look at this thread and the only person with improper arguments. clearly properly debating is not what matters here and that is the issue everyone is having right now.
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Except, Ant literally was willing to request more opinions when asked. And did so after all this. Instead of making this drama, you simply had to request more input.

That's it. This thread has only reinforced the idea that DB supporters are quick and ready to jump against the staff when things don't go their way.

And this is coming from someone that actually agreed with this.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Except, Ant literally was willing to request more opinions when asked. And did so after all this. Instead of making this drama, you simply had to request more input.

That's it. This thread has only reinforced the idea that DB supporters are quick and ready to jump against the staff when things don't go their way.

And this is coming from someone that actually agreed with this.
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my care for Dragon Ball is almost non-existent aside from nice memories as a kid. i'm definitely not a fan or apart of the community. if this wasn't passed because it was heavily contested, that wouldn't of bothered me really. Ant however immediately jumped the gun and said that this likely can't be passed because of one mod and only commented more after everyone pointed out how that is unfair. it's not even causing drama. it's pointing out an unfair system.

anyways, i'm going to step back and just let this thread go back to what it should, even though this thread is pretty much screwed and apparently was since the beginning.
 
RandomGuy said:
my care for Dragon Ball is almost non-existent aside from nice memories as a kid. i'm definitely not a fan or apart of the community. if this wasn't passed because it heavily contested, that wouldn't of bothered me really. Ant however immediately jumped the gun and said that this likely can't be passed because of one mod and only commented more after everyone pointed out how that is unfair. it's not even causing drama. it's pointing out an unfair system.
Click to expand...
And all of that was unneeded. Simply saying "hey Ant, maybe we need more input here?" And explaining why.

That's it.
 
Okay, now I am back.


In regards to the Dragon Z statement with Supreme Kai and I think Elder Kai, it was stated by Elder Kai that the Universe will been finished and that Buu potentially can come to destroy them as well in the Other World/afterlife I think.


And yes, it is from Episode 266 of Dragon Ball Z.

Now I gonna unfollow this thread since I am neutral overall to the CRT as well.

Edit: Also the statement for Temporal world take place before the statement of the universe being finished chronologically speaking.
 
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Antvasima said:
Hmm. It seems unlikely that this revision will be accepted then. My apologies.
Click to expand...
Hello and Good Day/Evening/Night Ant
I'm nothing more than a casual member of the Wiki who uses the site for recreation, interaction, debating and fun.

I was reading through the thread and I honestly wasn't gonna get involved but I will now...

I'm leaving my comment here for you to express my opinion and nothing more. The purpose of my comment isn't to attack you or anyone else but just to voice my opinion.



Ant
I'm gonna be blunt right now and say that your unintentionally being unfair. I don't know if you see it or not but this is being unfair. Your essentially placing value in one person's opinion and disregarding everyone else's. Granted the ONE PERSON we are talking about is a staff member plus a knowledgeable member when it comes to verse in question and as such their opinion holds alot of weight, even more so than the casual members of the site. That's quite alright as Staff opinion must always be treated with value and importance and staff members must always have the final say when it comes to any given topic. My issue (and the issue of everyone else it seems) is that you must remember, staff members of still ordinary people like you and I and everyone else, who are capable of thinking for themselves and interpreting things based on their own knowledge and understanding; as such their opinion is just their opinion. One staff member has voiced their opinion on the matter and your willing to place complete confidence in their opinion and disregard all others. It would have been a different story had a few of the debaters agreed with their opinion, but literally no one has agreed to their opinion and everyone who is presently debating has agreed AGAINST their opinion. Your unintentionally making everyone feel as if their opinions don't matter and that they wasted their time debating if in the end all their opinions counted for absolutely nothing at all. Making the debaters feel that their opinions is (in my own personal opinion) never a good thing. I can bet you anything that is how everyone is feeling right now and that's why they are voicing bold remarks.

Attacking staff members because your angry of an outcome is not an acceptable thing and those that have done so must refrain from doing so and try to remain civil and orderly.

Ant
This is unfair. Be it the rules or not, it is genuinely unfair (though in all honesty, opinion based systems generally do tend be unfair). A single staff member and even knowledgeable staff members opinions must hold strong weight but not the entirety of the weight itself. My advice is that you get other STAFF members to comment on the thread, let them read and analyze the information for themselves and let them come up their own interpretations and evaluations. As staff members their opinions are bound to also hold considerable weight as well and with enough staff members commenting, it will balance out the power of decision and give the CTR a more fair and accurate shot at whether it should be accepted or rejected based on majority opinion.

I have no right to tell you what to do so you can choose to do so if that's what you decide. I (and others) would just prefer for the CTR's final decision to be more fair and balanced.

That's my take on the matter
I wish you and the other members (staff and non-staff) of the Wiki well, good health and a good day/evening/night
 
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.
Ss3micah said:
Hello and Good Day/Evening/Night Ant
I'm nothing more than a casual member of the Wiki who uses the site for recreation, interaction, debating and fun.

I was reading through the thread and I honestly wasn't gonna get involved but I will now...

I'm leaving my comment here for you to express my opinion and nothing more. The purpose of my comment isn't to attack you or anyone else but just to voice my opinion.



Ant
I'm gonna be blunt right now and say that your unintentionally being unfair. I don't know if you see it or not but this is being unfair. Your essentially placing value in one person's opinion and disregarding everyone else's. Granted the ONE PERSON we are talking about is a staff member plus a knowledgeable member when it comes to verse in question and as such their opinion holds alot of weight, even more so than the casual members of the site. That's quite alright as Staff opinion must always be treated with value and importance and staff members must always have the final say when it comes to any given topic. My issue (and the issue of everyone else it seems) is that you must remember, staff members of still ordinary people like you and I and everyone else, who are capable of thinking for themselves and interpreting things based on their own knowledge and understanding; as such their opinion is just their opinion. One staff member has voiced their opinion on the matter and your willing to place complete confidence in their opinion and disregard all others. It would have been a different story had a few of the debaters agreed with their opinion, but literally no one has agreed to their opinion and everyone who is presently debating has agreed AGAINST their opinion. Your unintentionally making everyone feel as if their opinions don't matter and that they wasted their time debating if in the end all their opinions counted for absolutely nothing at all. Making the debaters feel that their opinions is (in my own personal opinion) never a good thing. I can bet you anything that is how everyone is feeling right now and that's why they are voicing bold remarks.

Attacking staff members because your angry of an outcome is not an acceptable thing and those that have done so must refrain from doing so and try to remain civil and orderly.

Ant
This is unfair. Be it the rules or not, it is genuinely unfair (though in all honesty, opinion based systems generally do tend be unfair). A single staff member and even knowledgeable staff members opinions must hold strong weight but not the entirety of the weight itself. My advice is that you get other STAFF members to comment on the thread, let them read and analyze the information for themselves and let them come up their own interpretations and evaluations. As staff members their opinions are bound to also hold considerable weight as well and with enough staff members commenting, it will balance out the power of decision and give the CTR a more fair and accurate shot at whether it should be accepted or rejected based on majority opinion.

I have no right to tell you what to do so you can choose to do so if that's what you decide. I (and others) would just prefer for the CTR's final decision to be more fair and balanced.

That's my take on the matter
I wish you and the other members (staff and non-staff) of the Wiki well, good health and a good day/evening/night
Click to expand...
Well said, ssmdmm3sich. These are my thoughts as well.
 
Antvasima said:
@Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @Promestein @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Dino_Ranger_Black @Dragonmasterxyz @Soldier_Blue @KLOL506 @Therefir @DemonGodMitchAubin @Ionliosite @UchihaSlayer96 @Migue79 @SomebodyData @CrimsonStarFallen @LordGriffin1000 @Starter_Pack @Theglassman12 @SamanPatou @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @ElixirBlue

Would you be willing to help us out here please? So far, AKM sama disagrees, DarkDragonMedeus is neutral, and I trust AKM's sense of judgement.
Click to expand...
Shifting through the thread to find what I would need to look at is kinda tough. I'd rather like to focus on the arguments relevant to see what makes more sense.

What is the current summary of the arguments in favor of the CRT(Is it all in the OP or is there more in the thread?) and what are the arguments against it?
 
ElixirBlue said:
Shifting through the thread to find what I would need to look at is kinda tough. I'd rather like to focus on the arguments relevant to see what makes more sense.

What is the current summary of the arguments in favor of the CRT(Is it all in the OP or is there more in the thread?) and what are the arguments against it?
Click to expand...
its mostly in the op
 
ElixirBlue said:
Shifting through the thread to find what I would need to look at is kinda tough. I'd rather like to focus on the arguments relevant to see what makes more sense.

What is the current summary of the arguments in favor of the CRT(Is it all in the OP or is there more in the thread?) and what are the arguments against it?
Click to expand...
Argument is in the OP, but the arguments are that the GT statement is just a preview and the DBZ anime statement is close to the DBZ manga statement with the addition of "separated by space-time", AKM says that because of this it's just flowery language. Argument against Low 2-C Buuhan is that it was a chain reaction so it's just environmental destruction.
 
I agree with the CTR.

So far it seems that a great deal of discussion has been around the quote that "father and son are separated by space and time"

But it seems that no one has debunked the Sugoroku Space quote, which seems pretty solid, and is a big support for the earlier evidence.

Still about a father and son phrase, it doesn't seem very "poetic" to me, it sounds too specific for that. Plus the fact that their context is literally about two guys in different dimensions.
 
Anime_Facts said:
I agree with the CTR.

So far it seems that a great deal of discussion has been around the quote that "father and son are separated by space and time"

But it seems that no one has debunked the Sugoroku Space quote, which seems pretty solid, and is a big support for the earlier evidence.

Still about a father and son phrase, it doesn't seem very "poetic" to me, it sounds too specific for that. Plus the fact that their context is literally about two guys in different dimensions.
Click to expand...
hate to be that guy but....

CRT*
 
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