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That's just more evidence, noice
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DB Toei revision
- Thread starter Zamasu_Chan
- Start date
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- dragon ball toei
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Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,466
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That possibly mean time in Afterlife or Hell whatever it is have different properties compare to time of Living Realm.
Combine with Shin called the Living Realm is temporal world mean that time of Living Universe did actually different from time of Afterlife, Supreme Kai Realm, etc....
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And plus being stated to be space times, two times.
Also didn't the daizenshu state that the living universe is based on ours, and it's similar to scifi movies like star wars, would be a good evidence for it being it's own space time?
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Every dimension is space-time.
Only issue is size and ""seperateness"" which we already qualify for.
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Well the living universe is based on ours, thus it's reasonable to assume it's as big as ours. But is this statement helpfull enough or no?
Nullflowerblush
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The Sugoroku Space is just... a space.
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But it isn't a timeless space is it??
Nullflowerblush
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We kind of need explicit confirmation that it is a timespace to be accepted as much on the Wiki. Besides, it exists outside of both the Living Universe and the Cosmos and seems to operate under its own whacky laws and physics.
Stefano4444
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Both Living World and Afterlife should be at the very least universal in size, since as you say the Living World its based to our universe while the Afterlife it is show to be just as big as the Living World.
And if you also count that Heaven was stated to be as big as an universe, then the actual size of the Macrocosmo would be much larger, not to mention the Kaioshin Realm it suppost to be only 1/10 of the Macrocosmo via Databook.
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Tell that to Alien X which got downgraded because it couldn't qualify its void before creation to be timeless.
Tell that to World of Void which isn't accepted as devoid of space-time
From what I have seen extremely stringent rules are apllied to qualify for timeless realms.
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It is technically a space time , since ya know...there is space, time, gravity etc...
If it exists outside of a space-time and it has space and time, it's a...ya know, a a space time
The wiki already accepts heaven to be universal in size, that's why toi goku has his quadrillion x speed of light Rating
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I agree with the cosmology stuff.
Wouldn't shaking universes be something like High 3-A? Destroying a space-time continuum requires infinite power, and destroying two requires infinitely more power. In this case, it's a finite amount of power in each universe. Just as an example, this same logic kind of suggests that something like destroying two tiny space-time continuums would be 2-C.
Also, the scans for Buuhan literally say he's warping the surrounding space, not all of space (something that's separated from time in DB, meaning it's High 3-A). They never mention any Low 2-C shenanigans, and the attack itself was just degrading the walls of reality badly enough for parallel universes to rush in. It's good, but I, again, don't see it being above High 3-A. Hell, I don't really even see it being High 3-A at all since you don't really need infinite energy to damage or warp space-time (unless this is truly on an infinite 3-D scale in terms of the area affected).
Wouldn't shaking universes be something like High 3-A? Destroying a space-time continuum requires infinite power, and destroying two requires infinitely more power. In this case, it's a finite amount of power in each universe. Just as an example, this same logic kind of suggests that something like destroying two tiny space-time continuums would be 2-C.
Also, the scans for Buuhan literally say he's warping the surrounding space, not all of space (something that's separated from time in DB, meaning it's High 3-A). They never mention any Low 2-C shenanigans, and the attack itself was just degrading the walls of reality badly enough for parallel universes to rush in. It's good, but I, again, don't see it being above High 3-A. Hell, I don't really even see it being High 3-A at all since you don't really need infinite energy to damage or warp space-time (unless this is truly on an infinite 3-D scale in terms of the area affected).
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Vietthai96
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I still failed to see how he make sense, all he did was using manga page to claim that anime narrative is flowery and poetic while they have entirely different content in their narrative
I lost my faith in humanity at this point
Stefano4444
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Pretty sure Heaven was never used to determinate Goku's speed, only that the Afterlife was universal in size.
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How does he make sense when he is using a non canon source to prove or support his points? Or using flowery or hyper statement even after knowledgeable people about dbz and some staff agreed that using an argument like that isn't a proper rebuttal
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It was, goku and piccon crossed heaven, which gave them their speed, but I could be terribly terribly wrong
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I also have to disagree with AKM on the use of manga to illustrate so-called poetic language, as well.
As long as it's not completely contradicted by the anime itself (there's evidence that points either way to some capacity), it should be fine.
As long as it's not completely contradicted by the anime itself (there's evidence that points either way to some capacity), it should be fine.
I nearly poked my eyes out staring at this edge.
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Covering the universe is 3-A.
The OP looks fine
The OP looks fine
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Way to conveniently ignore the main argument.
Which cosmology stuff to be exact? The Heaven stuff or the 2-C stuff? If it is the latter then can I ask for which reason? There were 3 reasons listed in the OP, 2 of which are inadmissible and the remaining one would act as a supporting evidence in the best scenario, not a primary one.
Also, as it stands now, all bureaucrats and Everything agree on the same thing. There's not much point in dragging this any longer.
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Not going to lie here, most of the reasons you guys have provided aren't actually good reasons, they're equivocation on stuff that's quite obvious.
Edit: Actually, rereading them, I suppose you guys do have a point to some extent, like differences in the meaning of temporal. But there's still some stuff that's pretty clear-cut, like the repeated statements that the flower field of heaven is universal in size and the so-called poetic language.
Either way, I strongly contest that these characters are anything above High 3-A, let alone 2-C.
Edit: Actually, rereading them, I suppose you guys do have a point to some extent, like differences in the meaning of temporal. But there's still some stuff that's pretty clear-cut, like the repeated statements that the flower field of heaven is universal in size and the so-called poetic language.
Either way, I strongly contest that these characters are anything above High 3-A, let alone 2-C.
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Have addressed many of rebuttals made to the comment??
You cannot use those comments anymore since they are disproven by us.
Stefano4444
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No, they only cross the distance between Hell and Grand Kai Planet, also it was Goku and Pikkon.
Vietthai96
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you guy it is irrelevant to this thread please stay on track
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Ok, I checked. The translation's accurate, but (like AKM said) it doesn't actually exist in any of the episodes. It's just the outro.
Although I personally don't think that has too much bearing, the evidence for this does seem weaker. Also, Kibito Kai in the next episode only specifies that it's another dimension of space (though they do seem to occasionally use space and dimension conterminously, but I strongly doubt it here given Kibito's word choice, and they separate the two terms in episode 31).
I'm going neutral instead of outright agreeing.
Although I personally don't think that has too much bearing, the evidence for this does seem weaker. Also, Kibito Kai in the next episode only specifies that it's another dimension of space (though they do seem to occasionally use space and dimension conterminously, but I strongly doubt it here given Kibito's word choice, and they separate the two terms in episode 31).
I'm going neutral instead of outright agreeing.
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I mean, I don't blame you. The thread has progressed too much for you to be able to keep track at this point. So only going off of the OP won't be enough to get a proper understanding. For update, the Popo statement and the temporal statement were already debunked. We are not discussing those anymore. Heaven is also irrelevant because it doesn't amount to any real change as far as cosmology is concerned. The currently accepted size of the DB universe already is big enough to have a universe-sized heaven in it. The GT statement is from preview which is inadmissible and the statement that is in the actual episode is nothing like that. The Buuhan stuff is against the rules.
The main point of contention of this thread is the statement about "separated by space and time" which is debatable and has a lower reliability (see the two posts I linked earlier for why). Which I think, and others have agreed, that it shouldn't be the primary evidence for such a big change on its own. Best case scenario, it could act as a supporting evidence for something else that is more concrete.
That's for you too.
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TypeOU
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how? if anything it proves that they were going for heaven being timeless, which is blatantly false.That's just more evidence, noice
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I skimmed most of it. I'm going neutral tbh.
I've actually been looking through a lot of this stuff for a few years, especially when people tried to use the english dub of the vice shout.
Ok (I always agreed with you on those, though).
Ok.
Already talked about this above.
Ok, I checked. The translation's accurate, but (like AKM said) it doesn't actually exist in any of the episodes. It's just the outro.
Although I personally don't think that has too much bearing, the evidence for this does seem weaker. Also, Kibito Kai in the next episode only specifies that it's another dimension of space (though they do seem to occasionally use space and dimension conterminously, but I strongly doubt it here given Kibito's word choice, and they separate the two terms in episode 31).
On another note, are the World of the Kais and Heaven separated in the anime?
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,856
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Wait, so is Sugoroku Space located between space-times or between time and space? The former would support the idea that the Living Universe and the Cosmos are their own space-times, whereas the latter just makes the space out to be some free-floating, interdimensional wedge.
Yes?
If memory serves me correctly, the Realm of the Kai can only accessed through teleportation in the anime, much like the manga.
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I don't know. Given what's stated in the episode, despite it not really lining up with that outro, I'd more say context leans towards it being in-between two separate time spaces.
But, again, that's just going by what the outro says. In truth, episode 30 & 31 more present it as an interstitial space.
But, again, that's just going by what the outro says. In truth, episode 30 & 31 more present it as an interstitial space.
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Sorry if I come back here, but what do you think about the DBZ statement about Gohan and Goku?
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Here's what Chozenshu has to say about that GT space. Take it as you will.
スゴロク空間 Sugoroku Kūkan
Sugoroku Space
[A.] Subspace
[Par.] An alternate space that appears in "Dragon Ball GT". It is impossible to use ki here so in order to escape from this space, you must gain 540,000 consecutive victories of the Sugoroku Game. If you lose or cheat, you will die. There are various squares such as riddle squares and squares where you absolutely cannot cry.
[Eve.] The place where Goku was dropped by the Kaioshin after helping him when he lost his battle against Baby.
Subspace, for reference, is the universe/part of the universe it's in. Heaven, Hell and the Kaio realms are listed as being in the 'World Beyond', while places within U7 are listed as 'Universe'.
Edit: I need to find Chouzenshuu 4. Apparently, there's a lot of stuff on DB time-space.
スゴロク空間 Sugoroku Kūkan
Sugoroku Space
[A.] Subspace
[Par.] An alternate space that appears in "Dragon Ball GT". It is impossible to use ki here so in order to escape from this space, you must gain 540,000 consecutive victories of the Sugoroku Game. If you lose or cheat, you will die. There are various squares such as riddle squares and squares where you absolutely cannot cry.
[Eve.] The place where Goku was dropped by the Kaioshin after helping him when he lost his battle against Baby.
Subspace, for reference, is the universe/part of the universe it's in. Heaven, Hell and the Kaio realms are listed as being in the 'World Beyond', while places within U7 are listed as 'Universe'.
Edit: I need to find Chouzenshuu 4. Apparently, there's a lot of stuff on DB time-space.
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