DMC and Omnipresence revision

[Lightning_XXI]

Among DMC speed feats, Dante and Void Mundus battle is currently listed at their speed description, but considering what I saw on some threads and how this became a common question regarding the verse, I believe there isn't a solid idea of what happened during their clash and how we see Fighting Omnipresence stats wise, so I wanted to bring this discussion so we can talk about it and decide, once and for all, what to do with this. This CRT is more like an invitation to discuss something rather important for the verse, but it's still a revision since currently the feat is taken as a skill feat, and I certainly want that gone and reduced to atoms

Consider taking a look at this thread first:

Dodging Omnipresence

Guy is omnipresence across space His fists and everything is also omnipresent He punches our character but the character dodges it Is this speed? Hax?

www.vsbattles.com

*Alternate Mundus and Dante, DMC Volume 2

人間のものにしてはひどく暗い、聞く者に絶望を思わせる響きを伴っている。それはもう、この世の笑い声ではなかった。ベリルは聞いた。高らかな、どこまでも響く笑い声を。人間のものではあり得ないほど暗く、耳にするだけで絶望を禁じえない響きを。上下、あるいは左右さえ定かではない空間に、彼女は一人で立ちすくんでいる。その傍らにダンテの姿はない。あろうはずもない。今の彼は、ベリルの見つめる遥か彼方--- 果てしなく広がる闇の宮殿で、苛烈な戦いを繰広げている。その相手は、魔王その人か。これまで彼女が相手にしてきた、あるいは目にしたいかなる悪魔をも凌駕するほど大きく、 即 計り知れない力を感じさせる体軀.目にしただけで崩れ落ちそうになるほど強く、抗う術のない威圧感。その姿を、彼女は一つの像として捉えることができない。ただそこに凝り固まる闇、としか。

Translation: It was terribly dark for a human, accompanied by echoes that evokes despair to those who hear it. It was no longer a laughter of this world. Beryl heard it. A high-pitched, echoing laughter. So dark it couldn't possibly be human, the mere sound just by hearing it would make one cannot help but feel despair. Up and down, or even left and right are uncertain in this space, she is standing alone. There is no sign of Dante nearby. It can't be. Right now he is, beyond Beryl's gaze---in the palace of the endlessly spreading darkness, where a fierce battle is unfolding. His opponent, is the Demon King himself? It's so large that it surpasses all the demons she has ever dealt with or have seen, a body structure that gives the impression of immeasurable power. It is so strong that she felt like falling down just by looking at it, an intimidating feeling she had no way of resisting. It's appearance, she cannot capture it as an image. Only the coagulate darkness

大口を叩いてここへと同行してきた自分の軽率さを、ベリルは今、痛烈に恥じていた。
ここは彼女の存在が許される場所ではない。
いや、いかなる者であれ、立ち入ることを許される場所ではない。
ただ魔王その人と、彼に比肩し得る者のみが、かろうじてとどまり得るだけである。
(-------)
ひたすらに無言で、ベリルはその一部始終を見守った。
手には愛用の巨大なライフルが握られているが、その引き金を引く力は、今の彼女にはない。
いや、仮にあったとしても、その行為がどれほどの力を持つものかは疑わしい。
幾度も死線を共に潜り抜け、幾多の悪魔を葬ってきた頼れる相棒も、この場においては枯れ枝と同じ程度の存在でしかないのだ。
そう、彼女は今、神話の舞台に立っているに等しかった。
戦いは今まさに、クライマックスを迎えようとしていた。
魔王と対峙するダンテの目にはいささかの逡巡も、そして迷いもない。
「おねんねの時間だぜ、ムンドゥス!」
その軽口もまた、まったく損なわれる気配はない。
大剣リベリオンが唸り、闇を斬り裂き、立ちはだかる魔王の体を貫く。

Translation: Her own carelessness to boast in accompanying him here, Beryl right now, is painfully ashamed. This is a not a place that would allow her to exist. No, it is not a place where any person is allowed to enter. Just the demon king himself, and those comparable to him, can just barely stay.
"..."
Utterly silent, Beryl watched the whole thing. In her hand her favorite giant rifle was being held, but the strength to pull the trigger, right now she doesn't have. No, even if she did have the strength, it would be doubtful whether her act would have any impact.. Having been through the line of death many time, with her trustworthy partner who buried many demons, in this place it is nothing more than a withered branch. Yet, she is right now, as if standing on the stage of myth/legend.The fight right now, was about to reach its climax. Confronting the demon king, Dante had not even a little bit of hesitation in his eyes
"It's bed time, Mundus!"
The lightheartedness of his speech, shows no signs of being impaired at all.
The great sword rebellion growled, slashing through the darkness, penetrating the body of the Demon King who stands in his way.

Link to the scans

During the events of the second novel, Dante casually fought the Alternate Mundus, nicknamed "Void Mundus" by us, and fighting inside the "void" that was this Mundus, described as being "unending darkness" that didn't allowed anything besides being equal to him to enter. Notably, Mundus was the whole unending void, omnipresent in his own domain, "The Demon King himself", yet Dante, even while immersed and surrounded by such darkness, is perfectly capable of attacking, reacting, avoiding and, in the end, kill the void. Even after all this description, the feat was considered a skill feat only

I'm not sure myself, but being completely surrounded by a void that is the very enemy who's attacking you shouldn't be just skill and certainly represents a character's speed, considering this, Dante would've been moving at Infinite or Immeasurable speeds (I've seen both interpretations). Of course I'm not saying every feat against omnipresent beings must be listed as Infinite or Immeasurable, so I ask you to look at this case and its reasons to why I believe this is a speed feat

• First and for most, Mundus is stated to be a void of unending darkness itself
• Dante is directly stated to be completely immersed in said void and in battle with it while avoiding most of his attacks
  
  As he said that, Dante's footwork was light and he ran through the empty space, avoiding most of the attacks.
• The raws never say Dante is using some form on Instinctive Reaction in order to perform this feat, which was the main argument this was rejected before. It says Dante instinctively knew how to fight it only
• DMC God Tiers have feats ranging from MFTL+ to Immeasurable already
• The Alternate Mundus is also stated to be outside of the Flow of Time
• To deny the fact that the void isn't attacking at all directions is to deny Mundus' very killing intent here, which is completely unreasonable considering everything is at risk against a battle against Dante, and he, more than anyone else, would know that. The novel also directly contradicts Mundus not taking the fight seriously:
  
  But of course, the Demon King wasn't just going to sit back and let himself be beaten.
  
  His countless arms swung down swords, rained down arrows of demonic power, and fired bolts of lightning, all in an attempt to bury the insolent challenger.

Note that I listed: Context, Intention and Consistency in order to propose what should be considered to give this type of feat a proper rating, so I'm not "defaulting" every feat against Omnipresence, at least that's not the intention

Considering this, Dante fighting and being untouched by the Void should be a speed feat in my opinion, regardless of it being Infinite or Immeasurable (Or other rating). Its description should be left better explained on Dante's speed section, even if it is a possibly or a likely, I see no reasons to deny the chances. Also, of course, I hope what's decided here should work as a basis to decide other similar feats (In case there are other similar feats)

 

[SYPHe5D]

I think it should be infinite speed at the very least and possibly immeasurable since he is reacting to attacks that is outside of time.

 

[KLOL506]

Me personally, I 100% believe it's got less to do with skill and more to do with speed. Sheer speed.

No amount of instinctive reaction is gonna save your bacon against omnipresent attacks if your body can't act on it. You can't aimdodge omnipresence or omnidirectional attacks in general unless you wanna get cooked, fried and sautee'd, that is.

Now how do we even begin to tier this? Well, I'll let the experts below decide.

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @Emirp sumitpo @UchihaSlayer96 @LephyrTheRevanchist @DarkGrath @LordTracer @DemonGodMitchAubin @KingTempest @Lonkitt @Dereck03 @Elizhaa @Maverick_Zero_X @Just_a_Random_Butler @LordGriffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus You know the drill, boys and gals.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Agree with it being a speed feat.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Me personally, I 100% believe it's got less to do with skill and more to do with speed. Sheer speed.

No amount of instinctive reaction is gonna save your bacon against omnipresent attacks if your body can't act on it. You can't aimdodge omnipresence or omnidirectional attacks in general unless you wanna get cooked, fried and sautee'd, that is.

The idea of it being reduced to a skill feat surprises me yeah

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Sounds good to me

 

[SYPHe5D]

Agree with it being a speed feat.

It is both speed and skill.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, this is a speed feat to me. Considering the size of the void itself, it's at least Infinite speed at that.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, this is a speed feat to me. Considering the size of the void itself, it's at least Infinite speed at that.

In this case, not much changes since these characters are Immeasurable in speed

 

[Palito266]

I agree as well. More consistency and arguments for speed seem nice.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Just wanted to point out that it is, certainly, a great skill feat, just shouldn't be reduced to only that, sorry if I wasn't clear

 

[SYPHe5D]

In this case, not much changes since these characters are Immeasurable in speed

We are addressing this just so it could be used as an example if other verses had feats like this so that they can conclude what tier do they qualify for in the future.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

From a personal point, I always felt really weird whenever I think about it as to what I should qualify it as but after seeing the statements regarding "Unending Darkness" and "Outside of time", not to mention the movements stuff. I think it makes reasonable amount of sense for it to be in immeasurable speed category or at the very least infinite speed.

 

[Tanin_iver]

The idea of it being reduced to a skill feat surprises me yeah

ahem ahem That was me.

No amount of instinctive reaction is gonna save your bacon against omnipresent attacks if your body can't act on it. You can't aimdodge omnipresence or omnidirectional attacks in general unless you wanna get cooked, fried and sautee'd, that is.

Yeah, well after mulling over this for sometime, I can see the point. At the very least, the character needs the speed to back up his reactions.

Now how do we even begin to tier this?

But yeah, about this. Hmmm.
I was thinking Irrelevant.
Well we already have immeasurable speed Demon King tiers. And even immeasurable doesn't even come close to capturing the sheer level of speed required to achieve the feat. I don't think anything less than immeasurable is valid anyway. Moreover the void is infinite sized and outside/beyond time so more proof for atleast immeasurable, imo.

Just wanted to point out that it is, certainly, a great skill feat, just shouldn't be reduced to only that, sorry if I wasn't clear

Aight

 

[LordGinSama]

Agree 100% with it being speed and not skill. Never thought it made much sense for someone to dodge something omnipresent via "lol skill."


Although I only have one genuine question. I ask namely for two reasons.

1: Is the sole reason why it's canon just because it's made by capcom? The company releasing it doesn't inherently make it canon, we can see this with things line Shueisha officially producing the movies for things like Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, etc. But that doesn't mean much unless the actual creators worked on it.


2: I've been told some of the novels take place in a different timeline, so if that's true or not I'm not sure how the scaling would work for the novels and the games.


Hopefully one of you DMC fans can provide me with an answer since I'm not skeptical, rather curious.

 

[DaReaperMan]

No amount of instinctive reaction is gonna save your bacon against omnipresent attacks if your body can't act on it. You can't aimdodge omnipresence or omnidirectional attacks in general unless you wanna get cooked, fried and sautee'd, that is.

I mean I have a verse where you can dodge any attack point-blank, even ones that uh, shouldn't be able to be dodged, to put it mildly

 

[SYPHe5D]

Agree 100% with it being speed and not skill. Never thought it made much sense for someone to dodge something omnipresent via "lol skill."


Although I only have one genuine question. I ask namely for two reasons.

1: Is the sole reason why it's canon just because it's made by capcom? The company releasing it doesn't inherently make it canon, we can see this with things line Shueisha officially producing the movies for things like Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, etc. But that doesn't mean much unless the actual creators worked on it.


2: I've been told some of the novels take place in a different timeline, so if that's true or not I'm not sure how the scaling would work for the novels and the games.


Hopefully one of you DMC fans can provide me with an answer since I'm not skeptical, rather curious.

1- light also says it should be counted as a skill feat.
2- novels are canon and stated verbatim to be so but one of the events within the novel happens in an alternative timeline, dmc 1’s novel works as a prequel to dmc 3 due to a timeline shift and 2’s novel works as a prequel to dmc 2’s game simple as that.

 

[SYPHe5D]

I mean I have a verse where you can dodge any attack point-blank, even ones that uh, shouldn't be able to be dodged, to put it mildly

Fiction can be wild at times.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Agree 100% with it being speed and not skill. Never thought it made much sense for someone to dodge something omnipresent via "lol skill."


Although I only have one genuine question. I ask namely for two reasons.

1: Is the sole reason why it's canon just because it's made by capcom? The company releasing it doesn't inherently make it canon, we can see this with things line Shueisha officially producing the movies for things like Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, etc. But that doesn't mean much unless the actual creators worked on it.


2: I've been told some of the novels take place in a different timeline, so if that's true or not I'm not sure how the scaling would work for the novels and the games.


Hopefully one of you DMC fans can provide me with an answer since I'm not skeptical, rather curious.

To be fair while the novels are canon, DMC 2 novel has never been declared as such at least according to the DMC wiki.

Questionable Status​

Works under this just have a status of canonicity that just isn't knowm because no information from Capcom has been told regarding it's current standing.

• Devil May Cry 2

It's not that it's non canon, but it hasn't been as concretely stated to be as the others. If there exists other info about it please link it cause I couldn't find jack about the novel.

 

[LordGinSama]

2- novels are canon and stated verbatim to be so but one of the events within the novel happens in an alternative timeline, dmc 1’s novel works as a prequel to dmc 3 due to a timeline shift and 2’s novel works as a prequel to dmc 2’s game simple as that.

That doesn't sound very simple, actually that sounds like complex anime shit.

So basically, this happens in a alternative timeline, but then there's a timeline shift that makes it in the same timeline?

 

[SYPHe5D]

To be fair while the novels are canon, DMC 2 novel has never been declared as such at least according to the DMC wiki.

Questionable Status​

Works under this just have a status of canonicity that just isn't knowm because no information from Capcom has been told regarding it's current standing.

• Devil May Cry 2

It's not that it's non canon but it hasn't been as concretely stated to be as the others. If there are other info about it please link it cause I couldn't find jack about the novel.

At the end of the novel it says the rest of the events will be continued at dmc 2 game right at the end of it, Chen literally talks to the ouroboros cooperation that is present in dmc 2, thé wiki can be out dated who knows but the events is concrete for it being canon I don’t get what is the thing with the utter skepticism regarding canonicity now when it has already been accepted that it is canon.

 

[Palito266]

So we're just ignoring this then

 

[SYPHe5D]

That doesn't sound very simple, actually that sounds like complex anime shit.

So basically, this happens in an alternative timeline, but then there's a timeline shift that makes it in the same timeline?

Okay, the first events of the novel are within the main timeline, then mainline Dante along with béryl gets bfred to an alternative one then they get out of there and go back to the main timeline in the nut shell.

 

[SYPHe5D]

Okay you all go to dmc discussions thread, let’s not derail this.

 

[Palito266]

That doesn't sound very simple, actually that sounds like complex anime shit.

So basically, this happens in a alternative timeline, but then there's a timeline shift that makes it in the same timeline?

DMC has a Multiverse.
At one point of the novel, a demon teleports both Dante and Beryl into an Alternate Timeline where it's basically a "what would've happened if Mundus won" where the worlds are fused back again. Dante defeats Mundus and gets tp'd back to his OG Timeline and the story goes on as usual.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Agree 100% with it being speed and not skill. Never thought it made much sense for someone to dodge something omnipresent via "lol skill."


Although I only have one genuine question. I ask namely for two reasons.

1: Is the sole reason why it's canon just because it's made by capcom? The company releasing it doesn't inherently make it canon, we can see this with things line Shueisha officially producing the movies for things like Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, etc. But that doesn't mean much unless the actual creators worked on it.


2: I've been told some of the novels take place in a different timeline, so if that's true or not I'm not sure how the scaling would work for the novels and the games.


Hopefully one of you DMC fans can provide me with an answer since I'm not skeptical, rather curious.

The others already said the novels are stated to be canon, so I'll point another factor

It has a very important (and the only source) of how Lucia, from the DMC2 game, contacted Dante, and how he knew how to find her, that being by a map with a knife on the location. Being a source that explains other canon events is yet another proof of its importance on the series

 

[LordGinSama]

Okay, the first events of the novel are within the main timeline, then mainline Dante along with béryl gets bfred to an alternative one then they get out of there and go back to the main timeline in the nut shell.

Ah that's much more simple. I appreciate you taking the time to explain this.

 

[SYPHe5D]

Ah that's much more simple. I appreciate you taking the time to explain this.

No worries.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

So we're just ignoring this then

In addition to the games, there are a couple novels and manga that have been released under the Devil May Cry license, and Itsuno-san personally oversees the writing for these, so that we can consider them canon.

Nah I'm good with that.

 

[SYPHe5D]

Either way since the question has been answered can we delete these comments now to avoid derailment?

 

[Palito266]

Nah I'm good with that.

Oh sorry dude, that wasn't going toward you, just in general since absolutely no one mentioned that interview lol.

 

[KLOL506]

To be fair while the novels are canon, DMC 2 novel has never been declared as such at least according to the DMC wiki.

Questionable Status​

Works under this just have a status of canonicity that just isn't knowm because no information from Capcom has been told regarding it's current standing.

• Devil May Cry 2

It's not that it's non canon, but it hasn't been as concretely stated to be as the others. If there exists other info about it please link it cause I couldn't find jack about the novel.

We do not take the DMC wiki as gospel. Plus the ending of the DMC2 novel leads straight to the beginning of DMC2 the game.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Agree with Tanin Iver.

Also the discussion about canonicity is pure derail. These things have been addressed like many years ago now.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

While that is good and all that wouldn't be proof just because the novel says that. What @Palito266 posted though was really good and left no further ground for arguments. Basically citing the contents of the book as a reason why it's canon wouldn't work because I'm tackling how canon it is. Now there is a source saying everything is canon which is perfect. Also yes seems like the wiki misses.

 

[ImmortalDread]

To be fair while the novels are canon, DMC 2 novel has never been declared as such at least according to the DMC wiki.

In case you don't know, we don't consider a source from wiki that discards or approve of something is any sort of evidence as much as we are wiki as ourselves.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Devil May Cry

The plot of Devil May Cry follows the Demon Hunter Dante, the son of a legendary demon who sealed off the demon world named Sparda and a human named Eva. Devil May Cry Volume 1: Set a few years before DMC3, the novel shows Dante when he was still using his alias "Tony Redgrave", when he fights...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Everything canon has already been mentioned on verse page. After tons of discussion already.

If canonicity is something that needs to re-established, please make a different thread.

We aren't introducing a new media or sequel here on wiki. I am sure everyone on this thread is already aware of all mediums and material being used ad infinitum throughout many different CRTs in these years, which wouldn't be possible if they were not established usable all those years ago.

Unless something has changed.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Yeah should have taken a look at the verse profile as well.

 

[SYPHe5D]

I think general WTH has been acting too silly that’s why you forgot to do so.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah, this is a speed feat to me. Considering the size of the void itself, it's at least Infinite speed at that.

I can agree with this

Now, the reason this wouldn't necessarily be Immeasurable (I believe they scale to immeasurable anyways, so I won't contest that scaling), it's because while Void Mundus may be unbound by time, this by default does not mean he can trivialize time in the manner which we rate as Immeasurable Speed.

A true Immeasurable Speed character, as mentioned on the speed page, effectively is able to choose "when" the attack occurs. If the narration instead mentioned how Mundus is attacking Dante in the past, for example, as time lost meaning to him and so the linear flow doesn't apply, then we could ascertain he can just choose the "when" of the attack.

Infinite here makes more sense, as the void in itself is infinite. For Dante to avoid and find "empty spaces" (key phrasing, spaces and not "moments", "time" or "moments in time"), he would be outspeeding the attacks doesn't matter where they are made from.

 

[SYPHe5D]

I can agree with this

Now, the reason this wouldn't necessarily be Immeasurable (I believe they scale to immeasurable anyways, so I won't contest that scaling), it's because while Void Mundus may be unbound by time, this by default does not mean he can trivialize time in the manner which we rate as Immeasurable Speed.

A true Immeasurable Speed character, as mentioned on the speed page, effectively is able to choose "when" the attack occurs. If the narration instead mentioned how Mundus is attacking Dante in the past, for example, as time lost meaning to him and so the linear flow doesn't apply, then we could ascertain he can just choose the "when" of the attack.

Infinite here makes more sense, as the void in itself is infinite. For Dante to avoid and find "empty spaces" (key phrasing, spaces and not "moments", "time" or "moments in time"), he would be outspeeding the attacks doesn't matter where they are made from.

Well at least infinite should work then,gotta be one of the best infinite speed feats on the site to be honest tho.