Curse Mark and Sage Mode Multiplier Removal CRT

[KingTempest]

Yeah I'm downgrading this multiplier. Since it wants to make everything complicated (Boruto scaling is now horrifying because of it), and it makes a plethora of the scaling look weird, here's what I'll do.

First I'll go over the arguments that got it accepted, then I'll go over issues with the multiplier in general.

Why The Multiplier Got Accepted​

I suggest that everyone reread over this thread before you even think about giving input. It's very small since the OP is concise and everyone agreed.

First thing we need to know, is that we have an accepted 10x multiplier for the 2nd state of the Cursed Mark via this statement made by Jirobo-Sama.

This is an issue.

This is a valid strength statement for Jirobo, but not the other sound 4. This is because all of the sound 4 get different amps when it comes to Cursed Seals..
I will take this from the databook, the Tō no Sho.
In order from Jirobo, Kidomaru, Tayuya, Sakon/Ukon, and finally Kimimaro.

Jirobo (Jutsu File)​

Arhat Fist (Rakanken)​

To Jiroubou, his body is a weapon used to break and crush his opponents. But he doesn’t use only brute strength: the Arhat Fist allows for a great variety of attacks. Since his transformation drastically increases his destructive power, any attack used in his Level 2 is strong enough to finish the foe.

Which focuses on destructive power. The Arhat fist is known for its destructive power, which is shown by it's feats against Choji.

Kidomaru (Jutsu File)​

Spider War Bow: Terrible Split (Kumo Senkyu: Suzaku)​

On top of this, the third eye which opens when he enters Level 2 gives him unmatched precision. Even from distances where he cannot be sensed by his opponent, his lightning speed arrow pierces through his target!!

His Level 2 amps precision.

Tayuya (Character File)​

[Genjutsu]

Level 2 Tayuya’s proud Genjutsu, Chuunin Shikamaru simply gets completely inserted into the powerful jutsu. Her originally powerful Genjutsu, the demon flute’s fascinating tone applies stimulation. Several dozen kinds of Genjutsu, an abundance of attacking ability of that level.

Her Level 2 amps Genjutsu.

Sakon (Jutsu File)​

Parasite Demon Demolition Technique (Kisei Kikai no Jutsu)​

An assassination technique that Ukon, Sakon’s older twin brother can only use in his Level 2! With the power of chakra, he disassembles his body down to a cellular, and even proteinic level, and enters the enemy’s flesh…! This cruel jutsu gradually corrodes the inner bodily cells of those he merges with, and death ensues.

And character file

The brothers posses a unique ability to share one body, however the older brother, Ukon, possesses and even more terrifying jutsu! In Level 2, Ukon can use this ability to enter his foe’s body. Then he gradually destroys his opponent’s cells, using this cruel assassination jutsu…! They truly are terrifying twins surpassing cellular and physical reason.

His Level 2 amps chakra levels.

Kimimaro (Jutsu File)​

Thanks to the power granted to him by Level 2, Kimimaro becomes one with the bone blades. He appears out of one of the profusely blooming multitude of bones, like an unearthly manifestation…!

Kimimaro enters Level 2 and paints this masterpiece of slaughtering technique on the battlefield. Dance of the Clematis is a dance that beckons certain death, a dance of demise. “Vine” attacks, bending and twisting the spinal column like a veritable whip. Even if the prey was to survive its pressure somehow, another reason to despair awaits them next…

In Level 2, the alterations to Kimimaro’s appearance are as sudden and drastic as they are terrible. Because of his tail, his spinal column is terrifyingly extensive.

An overly large bone spear, its hardness taken to the highest possible degree through compression and condensation. Handling it is not even worth considering without the physique that comes with Level 2.

His biology is "amped".

These are all things which can be amped by chakra, but only Jirobo gets his strength amped.

The OP used Jirobo's statement for strength for them to justify it all, when he should've used another statement, Kiba's about Sakon's, which amped CHAKRA LEVELS by 10, not strength. This is consistent with Jirobo's statement of chakra.
We know that chakra levels are not always 1:1 with AP, which is why Naruto's striking doesn't get weaker when he makes clones.
So no, the curse mark shouldn't even get that multiplier.

Juugo, the source of the Curse Mark's power, stated that Sasuke's mastery over it is very good, and that he hasn't seen a "copycat this good since Kimimaro". This clearly indicates that Kimimaro and Sasuke's usage of the Curse Mark is better than that of the Sound Four (which obviously includes Jirobo), but still somewhat below that of the original's being Juugo.

This statement was about segmental transformation, which is verbatim stated by Jugo. It's consistent, because we've never seen a cursed seal user use partial transformation in P1.

This is supported by Orochimaru stating that Sasuke has especially good compatibility with Juugo's CM, which was reiterated on a number of other occasions as well.
Long story short, the 10x multiplier is clearly somewhat of a low-end as Sasuke and Juugo are far superior to the likes of Jirobo when it comes to using the CM, meaning they comfortably scale to it.

They do scale above Jirobo's cursed seal's chakra level amp, but not because of that reasoning. That is a statement about their skill.
The rest does not matter because the rest is true, but it means little because of the previous being incorrect.

On top of that, a statement from the databook talking about the curse mark, specifically Sasuke's/Anko's and Kimimaro's.

#12: The Cursed Seal of Heaven – The Cursed Seal of Earth​

Among the Cursed Seals, the seals of Heaven and Earth hold exceptional “power”. Although their actual effect and potency are not directly evident, the truth of why they were carved into Kimimaro and Sasuke is to draw out their excess “power”.

On the back of Sasuke’s neck and on Kimimaro’s chest, the Cursed Seal rises to the surface. They are also a symbol revealing the depth of the darkness in their hearts…

The portion "Although their actual effect and potency are not directly evident" is basically saying that the effects and potency of the "amp" means that the amp isn't noticeable, which should be the case for a 10 TIMES MULTIPLIER.
It's basically stating that AP isn't the main drive for the curse mark.

Now.

Our Standards on Multipliers​

Lastly, multipliers will obviously only be used if they are not contradicted. A typical case of that would be if a character gets 10 times stronger, but fighters that were previously equal to it can still somehow keep up.

It's as if this statement was created for the sole purpose of this verse.

Feats That Contradict the Multiplier​

Base Naruto compared to Sage Mode​

A Pain who was matching base Naruto's AP could block and take a kick from SM Naruto with minimal injuries.
A quick 2 Pain combo could hurt Naruto and put him in a full nelson.
An even more tired, weakened, and injured Pain could take a kick from SM Naruto.

Did he take the hits as if he tanked them or as if he was relative? Of course not.
The fact that they could keep up is an issue.
Ofc they shouldn't be relative for sending him flying, but the fact that he took the hit and could still fight him is a problem.

Base Naruto compared to Six Paths Sage Mode + KCM​

I take it from my previous reply here.

Boruto (Momoshiki)​

Base Naruto got kicked in the face through a stadium by Momoshiki and isn't hurt (anime).
Base Naruto fought against Momoshiki and took hits from him (anime and manga).

Boruto (Delta)​

Base Naruto took hits from Delta and could slam her into the ground, kept up with her in speed, etc. (anime and manga).

Boruto (Jigensshiki)​

Base Naruto kicked Isshiki in his face and left a wound (manga).
Base Naruto took a few knees from Isshiki (manga).

CS1 Sasuke compared to CS2 Sasuke​

CS1 Sasuke took hits from KN1 Naruto then matched him with a 10x amp, which makes no sense.

Because of this thread, this point is moot.

Base and CS1 Jugo compared to CS2 Jugo​

CS1 Jugo is comparable to Suigetsu for their feats of clashing.
Suigetsu could block a hit from Ay. The same Ay who could punch into CS2 Jugo, who's supposed to be 10x stronger than the one that fought Suigetsu.

In Conclusion​

Those multipliers should be axed for SM, and possibly the Curse Mark as well.

 

[AlexSoloVaAlFuturo]

¨You don't do the same for op, so reported and banned.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I see one counter for this being that characters in Naruto can scrap with characters who vastly outscale them. However, I don't know how consistent that is with the rest of the verse's showings. So, on a first read through I agree with op until someone displays that Naruto characters can scrap with characters 10+ times above their weight class is consistent.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

¨You don't do the same for op, so reported and banned.

Ikr? The bias is unreal!! I'll downgrade all of OP to 11-C as revenge!

 

[LordTracer]

Pain’s power can vary depending on the situation, so trying to use him as a point against the multiplier doesn’t really work

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Pain’s power can vary depending on the situation, so trying to use him as a point against the multiplier doesn’t really work

Isn’t he like weaker when he needs to use his chakra for all paths?

 

[KingTempest]

Pain’s power can vary depending on the situation, so trying to use him as a point against the multiplier doesn’t really work

I used scans for Pain that were 2 pages apart so haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[BlastX]

"CS1 Sasuke took hits from KN1 Naruto, then matched him with a x10"

Did you miss the thread when I downgraded KN1 Naruto to not scale to CS2 Sasuke outside of Rasengan?

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

I used scans for Pain that were 2 pages apart so haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Tempest, you mess with Naruto, one piece is coming. Luffy is gonna be 12-d

 

[KingTempest]

Tempest, you mess with Naruto, one piece is coming. Luffy is gonna be 12-d

But 12-D is tier 1...

"CS1 Sasuke took hits from KN1 Naruto, then matched him with a x10"

Did you miss the thread when I downgraded KN1 Naruto to not scale to CS2 Sasuke outside of Rasengan?

Tbh, I actually did miss it. I can remove it from the OP

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

12 Dimensional Luffy ftw

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

But 12-D is tier 1...

In this case, it’s a tier below 12–c

 

[KingTempest]

Can we get back on track now?

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Anyways, I disagree with this.

 

[KingTempest]

Anyways, I disagree with this.

For what reason?

 

[LordTracer]

Also Kidomaru, Tayuya and Sakon are directly stated on more than one occasion to be stronker than Jirobo so even if you remove the multiplier, they would remain at the same tier UwU

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Wasn’t pain regaining chakra during the fight?

 

[theultimate5105]

I am pretty sure Jiraiya also has a statement of a sage mode technique being equal to ten of the same technique in base (need to find it though)

Pain varies a lot in most situations based on how much chakra Nagato puts into him so he is not reliable since Base would require less chakra to counteract then SM and he doesn't want to run out of chakra

Base Naruto doesn't need to be instantly killed by a casual base momoshiki also Momoshiki literally doesn't want to kill him so Narutos great regen and stamina makes that a no

Anime Delta is far weaker then Delta from the manga she was getting completely stomped We really need seperate manga and anime profiles for Boruto

Isshiki is stomping him literally again he is taking major damage in there+having insane regen also for the kick he couldn't even do that with SO6Ps mode

He doesn't scale to Ay on the profiles

I disagree alot of these are people being sent flying and taking damage they don't need to be critically injured from a single hit

 

[KingTempest]

Also Kidomaru, Tayuya and Sakon are directly stated on more than one occasion to be stronker than Jirobo so even if you remove the multiplier, they would remain at the same tier UwU

Databook stats say that Jirobo has superior physical strength

Nah my intention wasn't to downgrade them (even though I really want to with a passion), I could tell that that argument would still be brought up, it's just to stop the multiplier being used in the future

 

[LordTracer]

Oh, I just noticed the Suigetsu thing, ewwwwwwww

In the same page, A snaps his sword in half, Suigetsu “blocking” that hit is clearly not a legit feat

 

[LordTracer]

Databook stats say that Jirobo has superior physical strength

Manga statements > databook stats UwU

 

[KingTempest]

Wasn’t pain regaining chakra during the fight?

Not at any point did he regain chakra against SM Naruto except potentially with absorbing his chakra, which didn't matter because the corpse that absorbed the chakra was destroyed.

A Pain who was matching base Naruto's AP could block and take a kick from SM Naruto with minimal injuries.

These scans took place like 2 pages from each other. They're literally right after each other. Also Pain was weak

A quick 2 Pain combo could hurt Naruto and put him in a full nelson.

Regained chakra after he absorbed him, but if it was consistent, Naruto wouldn't be put in the hold.

An even more tired, weakened, and injured Pain could take a kick from SM Naruto.

He lost even more chakra here via the Chibaku Tensei.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Databook stats say that Jirobo has superior physical strength

Yes, on the same databook topic, let’s give kid naruto the same speed as hiruzen.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Aight y'all we all know databook statements are case by case, don't act like bringing wack db statements debunks the ones KT is using.

 

[KingTempest]

Oh, I just noticed the Suigetsu thing, ewwwwwwww

In the same page, A snaps his sword in half, Suigetsu “blocking” that hit is clearly not a legit feat

That's pressure being put on him. That's partially a lifting feat. It's like 2 people headbutting then one person overpowers them seconds later.

Manga statements > databook stats UwU

Shikamaru says that Tayuya's "strength" is in her genjutsu, which is consistent with the databook, and they have antifeats, like getting beat by people who are physically weaker than Choji via databook and manga statements

Yes, on the same databook topic, let’s give kid naruto the same speed as hiruzen.

Seems like you ignored that we took the databook stats case by case.


Regardless, the sound 4 won't get changed

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

This Tempest guy coming in with mad heat.

and far more factz

 

[Reio35]

Tempest doing justice

 

[KingTempest]

I am pretty sure Jiraiya also has a statement of a sage mode technique being equal to ten of the same technique in base (need to find it though)

1 technique ≠ his entire arsenal, and if the SM multiplier is supposed to be far superior to the curse mark, then it makes no sense for it to be only 10x

Pain varies a lot in most situations based on how much chakra Nagato puts into him so he is not reliable since Base would require less chakra to counteract then SM and he doesn't want to run out of chakra

The timeframe of the scans I sent are like 10 seconds after each other

Base Naruto doesn't need to be instantly killed by a casual base momoshiki also Momoshiki literally doesn't want to kill him so Narutos great regen and stamina makes that a no

Regen and stamina didn't stop him from deflecting the same attacks he matched in SPSM.

Anime Delta is far weaker then Delta from the manga she was getting completely stomped We really need seperate manga and anime profiles for Boruto

And both Deltas scale/backscale from SPSM + KCM Naruto, who should be >>>>> 10x base, which clearly isn't the case

Isshiki is stomping him literally again he is taking major damage in there+having insane regen also for the kick he couldn't even do that with SO6Ps mode

If he's 10x stronger he should be dead

He doesn't scale to Ay on the profiles

You do realize the profiles are still in the midst of being revised right?

I disagree alot of these are people being sent flying and taking damage they don't need to be critically injured from a single hit

If someone 10x stronger than you hits you, you will be harmed.
and they all kept up w/ someone who's supposed to be 10x stronger/weaker than them

 

[theultimate5105]

1 technique ≠ his entire arsenal, and if the SM multiplier is supposed to be far superior to the curse mark, then it makes no sense for it to be only 10x

Imperfect SM

The timeframe of the scans I sent are like 10 seconds after each other

Pain is still able to adjust his chakra

Regen and stamina didn't stop him from deflecting the same attacks he matched in SPSM.

All that scan shows is him a minor clash where he gets sent flying back

And both Deltas scale/backscale from SPSM + KCM Naruto, who should be >>>>> 10x base, which clearly isn't the case

Again your feat is from the anime which anime delta was getting obliterated by him

If he's 10x stronger he should be dead

Why would he be dead
Normal humans can survive hits that are 10x More powerful then them and he has regen which can regen vital organs+insane Stamina

You do realize the profiles are still in the midst of being revised right?

Nobody is scaling Suigetsu directly to Ay and you even said it would only be a partial lifting feat which doesn't change anything

If someone 10x stronger than you hits you, you will be harmed.
and they all kept up w/ someone who's supposed to be 10x stronger/weaker than them

They didn't keep up they were blown back by them

 

[KingTempest]

Imperfect SM

Doesn't matter, the toads did it for him. Should be far superior to a regular 10x

Pain is still able to adjust his chakra

Do you have proof he did it in that instance?

All that scan shows is him a minor clash where he gets sent flying back

Again your feat is from the anime which anime delta was getting obliterated by him

I don't see a single obliteration in the episode. I see backscaling potential

Why would he be dead
Normal humans can survive hits that are 10x More powerful then them

Do they tank them?
If you get hit with an elephant you're not going to breathe

and he has regen which can regen vital organs+insane Stamina

Naruto didn't regenerate a skin cell when he fought Momoshiki. He blocked his hit

Nobody is scaling Suigetsu directly to Ay and you even said it would only be a partial lifting feat which doesn't change anything

No, I said that him breaking the sword is a partial lifting feat. Suigetsu blocked an attack from him.

They didn't keep up they were blown back by them

Didn't die, no wounds, blocked attacks, etc

 

[theultimate5105]

Doesn't matter, the toads did it for him. Should be far superior to a regular 10x

Why would it be superior its inferior to normal SM

Do you have proof he did it in that instance?

I don't need proof for every single instance SM and Base being comparable is blantantly wrong since SM was supposed to let him fight pain. he could have just trained normally if the gap between them was that small

I don't see a single obliteration in the episode. I see backscaling potential

Do they tank them?
If you get hit with an elephant you're not going to breathe

Actually you can after being hit once and the gap is much larger between an elephant and a human then a 10x gap

Naruto didn't regenerate a skin cell when he fought Momoshiki. He blocked his hit

None of those were direct blocks again Momoshiki didn't want to kill him

No, I said that him breaking the sword is a partial lifting feat. Suigetsu blocked an attack from him.

and got destroyed a second later

Didn't die, no wounds, blocked attacks, etc

why would they die blocking can just be skill unless it is a straight up block where you stop their force

 

[KingTempest]

Why would it be superior its inferior to normal SM

Regular Curse Mark <<< Heaven and Earth Seals < Jugo's Method ≤ Sage Mode > Imperfect Sage Mode

I don't need proof for every single instance SM and Base being comparable is blantantly wrong since SM was supposed to let him fight pain. he could have just trained normally if the gap between them was that small

Argument from disbelief, and you have no proof that Pain massively gained chakra in half a second for an unexpected sage mode, so the argument is null

Actually you can after being hit once and the gap is much larger between an elephant and a human then a 10x gap

If you get hit by an elephant you're going to have at least a broken rib.
Someone blocking a hit from someone with no repercussions shows less than 10x.

We currently accept 7.5 being one shot worthy on this wiki. The fact that Naruto didn't one shot them is an issue.

None of those were direct blocks again Momoshiki didn't want to kill him

Did he try more against SPSM Naruto than base? And is there any proof of it?

and got destroyed a second later

Never got destroyed, got overpowered via lifting strength. Blocked his AP.

why would they die blocking can just be skill unless it is a straight up block where you stop their force

Someone sends an attack and I hit it from the sides, then we go at it and I take a bunch of hits.
That's dura.

If he tried to block his arms would've been torn apart

 

[LordTracer]

While I disagree with some of the examples Suigetsu used in the OP, removing the multipliers does make sense.

It also doesn’t affect anyone other than Minato, Hashirama and BSM so like

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I agree with the OP lol.
Truth be told, I can still argue for the multipliers, but I have realized how much scaling issues they've caused us. They were actually being restrictive, and resulted in weird convoluted scaling. As it turns out we're better off without them in the grand scheme of things, so yeah. This has my seal of approval for whatever that's worth.

 

[theultimate5105]

Regular Curse Mark <<< Heaven and Earth Seals < Jugo's Method ≤ Sage Mode > Imperfect Sage Mode

Its a unquantifiable gap honestly I wouldn't even care if it wasn't 10x for Jiraiya

Argument from disbelief, and you have no proof that Pain massively gained chakra in half a second for an unexpected sage mode, so the argument is null

Pain is one of the most varying characters in naruto

If you get hit by an elephant you're going to have at least a broken rib.
Someone blocking a hit from someone with no repercussions shows less than 10x.

Not fully blocking and no you will not always have a broken bone or even major damage from it

We currently accept 7.5 being one shot worthy on this wiki. The fact that Naruto didn't one shot them is an issue.

It literally says on the wiki that it can vary from verse to verse

Did he try more against SPSM Naruto than base? And is there any proof of it?

The fact that it is a blantantly stronger form is enough proof in itself

Never got destroyed, got overpowered via lifting strength. Blocked his AP.

His sword breaking is getting destroyed if it was just being overpowered via LS he would have not had his sword break

Someone sends an attack and I hit it from the sides, then we go at it and I take a bunch of hits.
That's dura.
If he tried to block his arms would've been torn apart

There is something called redirecting the exact place where it is going to hit which requires less power overall

 

[KingTempest]

Its a unquantifiable gap honestly I wouldn't even care if it wasn't 10x for Jiraiya

Ok, scrap the point

Pain is one of the most varying characters in naruto

He doesn't vary in the same fight 2 pages apart when someone randomly transforms in the middle of a clash

Not fully blocking and no you will not always have a broken bone or even major damage from it

Pain was fine from a kick from someone 10x stronger. Simple

It literally says on the wiki that it can vary from verse to verse

And Naruto has no proof of it being 10x
Doesn't Bee scale to his Bijuudama, and he got incapped by it being sent back to him at 2x the power?

The fact that it is a blantantly stronger form is enough proof in itself

But you said he didn't want him dead?
So he just held back at 2 different strength levels?

His sword breaking is getting destroyed if it was just being overpowered via LS he would have not had his sword break

You said he got destroyed, not the sword.
That makes no sense either. If it was AP he'd never block, sword would've gotten broken on contact

There is something called redirecting the exact place where it is going to hit which requires less power overall

This is relativity.
Simple.

 

[Damage3245]

This seems pretty comprehensive and well researched. I'm giving a tentative agreement to the OP's premise.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

I agree with the OP lol.
Truth be told, I can still argue for the multipliers, but I have realized how much scaling issues they've caused us. They were actually being restrictive, and resulted in weird convoluted scaling. As it turns out we're better off without them in the grand scheme of things, so yeah. This has my seal of approval for whatever that's worth.

We can still get Sage Naruto to island level, we just need to upgrade minato to large mountain.

 

[theultimate5105]

He doesn't vary in the same fight 2 pages apart when someone randomly transforms in the middle of a clash

He kinda can since pain is just a puppet that Nagato amps

Pain was fine from a kick from someone 10x stronger. Simple

Pain a corpse who doesn’t follow basic biology also again his power varies

And Naruto has no proof of it being 10x
Doesn't Bee scale to his Bijuudama, and he got incapped by it being sent back to him at 2x the power?

its different even in the same verse
also He wasn’t fully beaten plus Naruto has regen and better stamina

But you said he didn't want him dead?
So he just held back at 2 different strength levels?

He can go all out against someone equal to him yet someone weaker would die when he wanted to absorb his chakra

You said he got destroyed, not the sword.
That makes no sense either. If it was AP he'd never block, sword would've gotten broken on contact

The sword is the same power as him
it would be both AP and LS for a clash which is how they work

This is relativity.
Simple.

I just see Naruto getting pushed back and beat he is shown to be outclassed in physical power Sure he wasn’t killed but Momoshiki doesn’t want to kill him

 

[KingTempest]

He kinda can since pain is just a puppet that Nagato amps

A half dead Nagato amped Pain in less than half a second to get 10x stronger. I've heard enough

Pain a corpse who doesn’t follow basic biology also again his power varies

His power varies over time. This is literally going from A to 10xA in the span of less than a second. He should've violated Naruto then.

its different even in the same verse

Well it's different but it's definitely not on your side to justify 10x

also He wasn’t fully beaten plus Naruto has regen and better stamina

Regen and stamina have nothing to do with durability

He can go all out against someone equal to him yet someone weaker would die when he wanted to absorb his chakra

No proof he didn't do his max.

The sword is the same power as him

Suigetsu thought he could beat Sasuke and Kisame when he got the sword.
It's definitely not

it would be both AP and LS for a clash which is how they work

AP for the collision, lifting for the pressure.

I just see Naruto getting pushed back and beat he is shown to be outclassed in physical power Sure he wasn’t killed but Momoshiki doesn’t want to kill him

I just see Naruto taking a bunch of hits from someone 10x stronger than him.