Curse Mark and Sage Mode Multiplier Removal CRT

[Loyd]

not like the other 3 could be stronger because thr hax is way better then MR.Urgh i just get stronger.

 

[Arkenis]

This is Tayuya's stats according to the databook:

And this is Jirobo's stats according to the databook:

Jirobo is 5 whereas Tayuya is 1.

Tayuya > Jirobo in terms of strength???

Heh

 

[LordTracer]

Of course context matters, but don't pretend that someone being called stronger automatically means they're above them in raw stats, there are other explanations.

Context is exactly what you need to say if the term stronger doesn’t mean strength. If there is no further context given in a statement of “A is stronger than B,” then A is just stronger than B.

The crazy thing is that nobody has provided legit evidence to say Jirobo is stronger than the rest of the Sound Four (despite there being two statements, one from the Sound Four and one from Orochimaru himself, of Jirobo being the weakest and there being a direct statement of Kidomaru > Jirobo), the logic has just been “lol spider man can’t be stronker than big body”

Y’all are basically just cherry-picking when stronger actually means stronger and when it doesn’t.

 

[Purgy]

Context is exactly what you need to say if the term stronger doesn’t mean strength. If there is no further context given in a statement of “A is stronger than B,” then A is just stronger than B.

The crazy thing is that nobody has provided legit evidence to say Jirobo is stronger than the rest of the Sound Four (despite there being two statements, one from the Sound Four and one from Orochimaru himself, of Jirobo being the weakest and there being a direct statement of Kidomaru > Jirobo), the logic has just been “lol spider man can’t be stronker than big body”

Y’all are basically just cherry-picking when stronger actually means stronger and when it doesn’t.

Evidence was provided by Kin201 above

 

[Kin201]

The crazy thing is that nobody has provided legit evidence to say Jirobo is stronger than the rest of the Sound Four (despite there being two statements, one from the Sound Four and one from Orochimaru himself, of Jirobo being the weakest and there being a direct statement of Kidomaru > Jirobo), the logic has just been “lol spider man can’t be stronker than big body”

Using databook's stats is legit evidence. It doesn't contradict the manga since it can be explained that they are stated to be ''stronger'' because of skills, techniques, jutsu, etc... Not raw strength. The databook clearly compares his ''raw strength'' to the other sound four members at least. It is not out of context. He is rated as 5, which makes him the physically strongest member. You're just being stubborn, it is funny.

 

[LordTracer]

You know what’s funny. I could just **** around and say Kidomaru > KN0 Naruto because of Neji’s statement, and then Sakon and Tayuya > Kidomaru

It doesn't contradict the manga since it can be explained that they are stated to be ''stronger'' because of skills, techniques, jutsu, etc... Not raw strength.

I already explained this. Where in the manga does it even imply that all three statements of Jirobo being the weakest are not in reference to actual strength?

 

[Purgy]

I already explained this. Where in the manga does it even imply that all three statements of Jirobo being the weakest are not in reference to actual strength?

The databook stats support it not being in reference to physical strength.

It has him with a far higher strength rating, clearly indicating that the S4 being "stronger" than him is just that they'd beat him in a fight due to their abilities, intelligence etc and not that they're physically stronger than him, they're stronger in a overall combat sense.

Unless you have a statement directly saying that they're physically stronger?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Can you guys put this discussion on hold until the OP is decided on?

 

[LordTracer]

Actually if y’all wanna do the databook stats, why don’t we scale Jirobo above Kimimaro? Kimimaro only has a 3 in strength while Jirobo has a 5. Sakon also has a 3.5, let’s scale him above Kimimaro too.

 

[Purgy]

Can you guys put this discussion on hold until the OP is decided on?

Sure, KingTempest said he'd make a separate thread for it so I don't mind.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I agree with the OP FRA

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I never truly agreed with the upgrade in the first place, so good to see someone else put in the effort to disprove it.

 

[PrinceofPein]

A Pain who was matching base Naruto's AP could block and take a kick from SM Naruto with minimal injuries.

This definitely does not prove ur point

A quick 2 Pain combo could hurt Naruto and put him in a full nelson.

okay this says nothing tho, sm doesnt mean he will resist uni pull and stop his sage chakra from getting absorbed on contact

An even more tired, weakened, and injured Pain could take a kick from SM Naruto.

"Tired, weakened and injured?
Pain is a dead body they dont feel pain, wtf
you cant use them this way

Ofc they shouldn't be relative for sending him flying, but the fact that he took the hit and could still fight him is a problem.

except he is a dead body and wont feel pain or any form of drawbacks of any kind

Boruto (Momoshiki)​

Base Naruto got kicked in the face through a stadium by Momoshiki and isn't hurt (anime).

yes

Base Naruto fought against Momoshiki and took hits from him (anime and manga).

and later on base naruto roughed him up. and it took fused momshiki for naruto to fight in spsm

Boruto (Delta)​

Base Naruto took hits from Delta and could slam her into the ground, kept up with her in speed, etc. (anime and manga).

the entire fight is idk, but well it is agreed here Delta in the anime is not scaling to spsm nardo

Boruto (Jigensshiki)​

Base Naruto kicked Isshiki in his face and left a wound (manga).

can simply be written of as PIS or outlier (One time) tho considering the scene it happened

Base Naruto took a few knees from Isshiki (manga).

of course they are not comparable, what does this prove.

CS1 Sasuke compared to CS2 Sasuke​

CS1 Sasuke took hits from KN1 Naruto then matched him with a 10x amp, which makes no sense.

your definition of take it is really funny

Because of this thread, this point is moot.

yes

Base and CS1 Jugo compared to CS2 Jugo​

CS1 Jugo is comparable to Suigetsu for their feats of clashing.
Suigetsu could block a hit from Ay. The same Ay who could punch into CS2 Jugo, who's supposed to be 10x stronger than the one that fought Suigetsu.

Unless you have prove that AY charging head on and gaining momentum from a distance is equal to his hand chop that sui stopped for a while before Kubikiribōchō got chopped into two.
Ay has varying power level depending on his current chakra amp, and his attack against jugo happened after he got fully serious.

In Conclusion​

Those multipliers should be axed for SM, and possibly the Curse Mark as well.

Disagree.
Was clearly stated and shown to amp, anything else is disingenous


I know this is personal but.........

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest; do you know which profiles will be directly affected by the change?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Agree but I wouldnt use databook stats as an argument.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Agree.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

@KingTempest; do you know which profiles will be directly affected by the change?

IIRC these are some of the Profiles that directly use the 10X Multiplier for Sage Mode

Sage Mode Hashirama
Kurama Sage Mode Naruto
Sage Mode Koji

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Tempest doing justice

Any Naruto related downgrade is justice to you bruh

 

[Arkenis]

Unless you have prove that AY charging head on and gaining momentum from a distance is equal to his hand chop that sui stopped for a while before Kubikiribōchō got chopped into two.
Ay has varying power level depending on his current chakra amp, and his attack against jugo happened after he got fully serious.

I agree. It's kinda shown that Ay amplifies himself against Jugo. He gets irritated and the "bzzz" sound comes up. This happens throughout their fight until V2 and then in v2 nothing happens with the sound really. When Ay is doing a liger bomb it happens, when he's going in for the chop on Sasuke it happens, so it certainly seems like he's increasing his power as the fight went on.

 

[SirAlex09]

We know that chakra levels are not always 1:1 with AP, which is why Naruto's striking doesn't get weaker when he makes clones.
So no, the curse mark shouldn't even get that multiplier.

Chakra levels refer to the potency and not the quantity and potency does indeed scale 1:1 with AP. Making clones only divides the quantity of chakra but the potency stays the same

 

[theultimate5105]

No, the alternative is that SM is a boost, just not a huge one.

Which is contradicted by the fact that Naruto spent forever training it as pretty much his only way of fighting pain

"Taking hits fine" the first hit they took destroyed their entire susanoo and bijuu mode. They didn't take any hits.

They were inside and they went and fought back right afterwards

Still move, yes. take hits, no.
Regen doesn't affect blocking, dodging, and deflecting hits

he didn't fully block catching hits mid air would be a full block mildly redirecting them would be a minor block

"Massively stronger form" with feats of being comparable

none of the feats or statements are of it being comparable
BSM was a huge amp over BM
SM was literally required for Naruto to stand a chance against Pain and Jiraya spent a huge amount of time charging up a summon to get SM while fighting pain which if it was a tiny amp he wouldn't do
It lets Naruto not get messed up by his own rasenshuriken

No, suigetsu + the sword ~ Ay > the sword by itself

The sword was still being wielded and would break just as easily
also admitted to Suigetsu not scaling to Ay right here

Does not matter because there's no reason for him to change his AP that much. If he was massively stronger he woulda just incapped him

that is actually a reason to change his AP

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest; do you know which profiles will be directly affected by the change?

IIRC these are some of the Profiles that directly use the 10X Multiplier for Sage Mode

Sage Mode Hashirama
Kurama Sage Mode Naruto
Sage Mode Koji

 

[KingTempest]

Which is contradicted by the fact that Naruto spent forever training it as pretty much his only way of fighting pain

This doesn't mean anything at all.
Your argument is "they trained for a long time

They were inside and they went and fought back right afterwards

Naruto lost KCM and was breathing hard and they had bruises because the bijuu took the full yield and he still got hurt somehow.

he didn't fully block catching hits mid air would be a full block mildly redirecting them would be a minor block

Keep ignoring that he took hits from him

none of the feats or statements are of it being comparable
BSM was a huge amp over BM
SM was literally required for Naruto to stand a chance against Pain and Jiraya spent a huge amount of time charging up a summon to get SM while fighting pain which if it was a tiny amp he wouldn't do
It lets Naruto not get messed up by his own rasenshuriken

BSM did not showcase any 10x amps over BM
SM being required to fight pain does not justify it being 10x
This has no proof of it being 10x

The sword was still being wielded and would break just as easily
also admitted to Suigetsu not scaling to Ay right here

Goddamn you're just ignoring everything huh

that is actually a reason to change his AP

BY 10 TIMES? You have no reason for it to be 10x

Your arguments are horrifyingly bad, I'm not replying to a word you say from now on. You're not even arguing, you're just saying random statements that don't justify 10x

 

[KingTempest]

This definitely does not prove ur point

Statement is meaningless until explained

okay this says nothing tho, sm doesnt mean he will resist uni pull and stop his sage chakra from getting absorbed on contact

You clearly missed when they punched him in his stomach, put him in a hold, and incapped him

"Tired, weakened and injured?
Pain is a dead body they dont feel pain, wtf
you cant use them this way

Ok, a Pain with a tired, weakened, and injured controller

except he is a dead body and wont feel pain or any form of drawbacks of any kind

Go read when the fight started and he couldn't use his main technique for like 10 minutes

and later on base naruto roughed him up. and it took fused momshiki for naruto to fight in spsm

So Fused Momo didn't destroy his bijuu?

the entire fight is idk, but well it is agreed here Delta in the anime is not scaling to spsm nardo

"Agreed here" is moot since everything yall agree on changes like the seasons

can simply be written of as PIS or outlier (One time) tho considering the scene it happened

Def not both since it's consistent

of course they are not comparable, what does this prove.

What?

your definition of take it is really funny

I crossed that out for a reason

Unless you have prove that AY charging head on and gaining momentum from a distance is equal to his hand chop that sui stopped for a while before Kubikiribōchō got chopped into two.

This was your only good point

Ay has varying power level depending on his current chakra amp, and his attack against jugo happened after he got fully serious.

He got fully serious when he went V2 idk wtf you're talking about

Disagree.
Was clearly stated and shown to amp, anything else is disingenous

The fact that you and everyone else who disagrees with this has this mindset is pissing me off.

Nobody said that it doesn't amp, we said that there's contradictions to the amp being 10 times.

I know this is personal but.........

I
Do not
Care

 

[Arkenis]

There's several quotes implying an increase of chakra for cm2 though. I would go looking for all of them but eh. I think Jugo is fine enough and kidomaru's also

So clearly cm 1 and 2 increase chakra.
I know this is showing Cm1 Kidomaru, in cm2 he uses stronger attacks aka his arrow. So they do get stronger.

 

[Arkenis]

Really hope this doesn't become more than 7 pages.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

IIRC these are some of the Profiles that directly use the 10X Multiplier for Sage Mode

Sage Mode Hashirama
Kurama Sage Mode Naruto
Sage Mode Koji

Minato also uses the multiplier.
Curse Mark Susano'o Sasuke and Madara's Perfect Susano'o will also be indirectly affected due to scaling to Naruto and Hashirama respectively.

 

[KingTempest]

I don't know who said that it gives no amp

I specifically said in the OP that it gives an amp, it just isn't 1:1 with AP

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Minato also uses the multiplier.
Curse Mark Susano'o Sasuke and Madara's Perfect Susano'o will also be indirectly affected due to scaling to Naruto and Hashirama respectively.

Madara and Hashi can be discussed in another thread.

I agree that the multiplier affects the scaling but to me its more that Boruto's bad scaling messes things up.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Minato also uses the multiplier.

Right, forgot about him.

Madara's Perfect Susano'o

IIRC didn't we just Upscale his Perfect Susano'o to Baseline Low 6-B for being High 6-C+ (990ish Gigatons)

 

[PrinceofPein]

Statement is meaningless until explained

you sent naruto matching pain in base htne in sm simply swapping him away and you think that proves ur point?

You clearly missed when they punched him in his stomach, put him in a hold, and incapped him

by absorbing his chakra??

Ok, a Pain with a tired, weakened, and injured controller

okay so the attacks that happens to the paths of pain get transferred to nagato??
Whats all these?

Go read when the fight started and he couldn't use his main technique for like 10 minutes

okay how is a that a drawback that means they feel pain?? You just keep saying random things..
he cant use the technique cause of the cool down time associated with using it in a large scale.

how does this mean the pain feel pain??

So Fused Momo didn't destroy his bijuu?

like i said
base naruto => base momoshiki.
fused momo stomped base naruto
spsm was needed to fight fused momo.

how did destroying bijuu come into the argument??Calm down and read my arguments right.

"Agreed here" is moot since everything yall agree on changes like the seasons

i can say the same for u

Def not both since it's consistent

consistent?? tf is this, this is definitely personal to u but learn to read well.
base naruto hurting isshiki is consistent because he bruised isshiki once to save boruto. where else did that happen??
Clearly PIS or outlier

This was your only good point

i wish i can say the same for you

He got fully serious when he went V2 idk wtf you're talking about

Ay charging in and gaining momentum >>>>>>>> Ay hand chop

The fact that you and everyone else who disagrees with this has this mindset is pissing me off.

Nobody said that it doesn't amp, we said that there's contradictions to the amp being 10 times.

No there are no contradictions, u just felt like nitpicking.

I
Do not
Care

I do care, cant argue with someone who got sentimental cause he didnt have his way in a certain thread and decided to open another just for a win...

must be good to be a mod

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

IIRC didn't we just Upscale his Perfect Susano'o to Baseline Low 6-B for being High 6-C+ (990ish Gigatons)

No.
He and Hashirama are both Low 6-B because of the multiplier. (Base Hashirama's Mokuton is 260 GT, SM Hashirama is 10x that, at 2.6 TT)

They'll both scale to the High 6-C+ Perfect Susano'o calc now instead.

 

[Damage3245]

I do care, cant argue with someone who got sentimental cause he didnt have his way in a certain thread and decided to open another just for a win...
must be good to be a mod

If this is your attitude in CRT's, then maybe it would be better to stop arguing here.

 

[Avengershows]

Every Naruto CRT that happens gives me braindamage, anywho, I fully agree with OP

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

He and Hashirama are both Low 6-B because of the multiplier. (Base Hashirama's Mokuton is 260 GT, SM Hashirama is 10x that, at 2.6 TT)

Really, they scale to 2.6 TT? From the Verse Page Calculations' Notes, it says that SM Mokuton scales to 1.3 TT.

 

[KingTempest]

you sent naruto matching pain in base htne in sm simply swapping him away and you think that proves ur point?

by absorbing his chakra??

So they absorbed his chakra before they punched him in his chest and put him in a hold?

okay so the attacks that happens to the paths of pain get transferred to nagato??
Whats all these?

So we're gonna act like Pain didn't use Chibaku and Shinra Tensei and the original's lifeforce didn't split in half?

okay how is a that a drawback that means they feel pain?? You just keep saying random things..
he cant use the technique cause of the cool down time associated with using it in a large scale.

like i said
base naruto => base momoshiki.
fused momo stomped base naruto

He didn't stomp anyone AP wise

spsm was needed to fight fused momo.

Jesus do you read the arguments?

Nobody is saying they're relative or anything, I'm saying that the shown gap isn't shown to be 10x

how did destroying bijuu come into the argument??Calm down and read my arguments right.

His Bijuu.

Read the ******* series

i can say the same for u

You're happy

consistent?? tf is this, this is definitely personal to u but learn to read well.
base naruto hurting isshiki is consistent because he bruised isshiki once to save boruto. where else did that happen??
Clearly PIS or outlier

Base Naruto hurting people that can fight his SPSM + KCM is consistent.

Ay charging in and gaining momentum >>>>>>>> Ay hand chop

≠ Serious

No there are no contradictions, u just felt like nitpicking.

Ok

I do care, cant argue with someone who got sentimental cause he didnt have his way in a certain thread and decided to open another just for a win...

Number one, shut the hell up.
Number two, what the hell are you even talking about?

I opened this thread because I had issues with the multiplier.

Every member who has been here for a while knows I've hated the multiplier. UchihaSlayer96, AlexSoloVaAlFuturo. Rocker1189, Jvando, LordTracer, and many more have heard my rants about this multiplier off site.
I've never in my life tacked the multiplier on this forum until this thread, so I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Please shut up and stop assuming motives.
"Just for a win" just for accuracy. You're babying cause a multiplier is getting downgraded.

must be good to be a mod

What does being a mod have to do with anything?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Really, they scale to 2.6 TT? From the Verse Page Calculations' Notes, it says that SM Mokuton scales to 1.3 TT.

I didn't write that, so idk. But I'm telling you what was accepted on the actual CRT.

130 GT comes from BM Naruto (Bijū x5), 100% Kurama is double that at 260 GT, which base Hashirama scales to. Then the multiplier does its magic, and you reach 2.6 TT.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

you can stomp someone without being 10 times stronger than them.

 

[KingTempest]

I don't know who said that it gives no amp

I specifically said in the OP that it gives an amp, it just isn't 1:1 with AP

Stop arguing "he had to go here to fight him", I said it's an amp, it's just not 10x.

you can stomp someone without being 10 times stronger than them.

The issue is that people don't get stomped even w/ the 10x amp

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The issue is that people don't get stomped even w/ the 10x amp

it goes both ways, Fiction doesn't hold the same standard as we do for what is or isn't a stomp. you can grow to be 100 times more powerful and the other character could still barely keep up if the Plot needs him too.

It's why I don't take Multipliers, in general, all that seriously.