Curse Mark and Sage Mode Multiplier Removal CRT

[MinatoSparkle]

Definitely didn't read the OP. I've already considered each and every one of your points in earlier replies and the OP.

Anyways this has already been accepted so I'm not stressing myself over someone who didn't read the thread and is repeating points until I say "okay okay it's 10x"

Except in my first response I literally went through the OP line by line and responded to all the points I disagreed with. You can check.

Bruh.

Sage Mode

Is

Clearly

At least

A 10x

Multiplier

I'm aware you responded to the Sakon statement, but "chakra" is a very vague descriptor anyways. It doesn't make sense to be referring to chakra RESERVES, which is the only thing I can think of it being besides power. This is because just having more chakra doesn't mean anything other than being able to fight longer. And it doesn't make sense even disregarding that since Akamaru wasn't scared at all of Naruto who has far more chakra

Besides, you seem to think if I'm reading the OP right that the CS2 boosts all of their chakra levels by 10x, yet despite Neji seeing Kidomaru's CS2 (and there's no indication of Sakon having far more chakra than Kidomaru, Kidomaru actually used more jutsu so if anything he should have more), he still stated Kid Naruto and Kisame had the highest chakra of anyone he'd seen

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest; can you write up proposals for what the changed ratings would be?

 

[Teezar]

Yeah I'm downgrading this multiplier. Since it wants to make everything complicated (Boruto scaling is now horrifying because of it), and it makes a plethora of the scaling look weird, here's what I'll do.

First I'll go over the arguments that got it accepted, then I'll go over issues with the multiplier in general.

Why The Multiplier Got Accepted​

I suggest that everyone reread over this thread before you even think about giving input. It's very small since the OP is concise and everyone agreed.

This is an issue.

This is a valid strength statement for Jirobo, but not the other sound 4. This is because all of the sound 4 get different amps when it comes to Cursed Seals..
I will take this from the databook, the Tō no Sho.
In order from Jirobo, Kidomaru, Tayuya, Sakon/Ukon, and finally Kimimaro.

Jirobo (Jutsu File)​

Which focuses on destructive power. The Arhat fist is known for its destructive power, which is shown by it's feats against Choji.

Kidomaru (Jutsu File)​

His Level 2 amps precision.

Tayuya (Character File)​

Her Level 2 amps Genjutsu.

Sakon (Jutsu File)​

And character file

His Level 2 amps chakra levels.

Kimimaro (Jutsu File)​

His biology is "amped".

These are all things which can be amped by chakra, but only Jirobo gets his strength amped.

The OP used Jirobo's statement for strength for them to justify it all, when he should've used another statement, Kiba's about Sakon's, which amped CHAKRA LEVELS by 10, not strength. This is consistent with Jirobo's statement of chakra.
We know that chakra levels are not always 1:1 with AP, which is why Naruto's striking doesn't get weaker when he makes clones.
So no, the curse mark shouldn't even get that multiplier.

This statement was about segmental transformation, which is verbatim stated by Jugo. It's consistent, because we've never seen a cursed seal user use partial transformation in P1.

They do scale above Jirobo's cursed seal's chakra level amp, but not because of that reasoning. That is a statement about their skill.
The rest does not matter because the rest is true, but it means little because of the previous being incorrect.

On top of that, a statement from the databook talking about the curse mark, specifically Sasuke's/Anko's and Kimimaro's.

The portion "Although their actual effect and potency are not directly evident" is basically saying that the effects and potency of the "amp" means that the amp isn't noticeable, which should be the case for a 10 TIMES MULTIPLIER.
It's basically stating that AP isn't the main drive for the curse mark.

Now.

Our Standards on Multipliers​

It's as if this statement was created for the sole purpose of this verse.

Feats That Contradict the Multiplier​

Base Naruto compared to Sage Mode​

A Pain who was matching base Naruto's AP could block and take a kick from SM Naruto with minimal injuries.
A quick 2 Pain combo could hurt Naruto and put him in a full nelson.
An even more tired, weakened, and injured Pain could take a kick from SM Naruto.

Did he take the hits as if he tanked them or as if he was relative? Of course not.
The fact that they could keep up is an issue.
Ofc they shouldn't be relative for sending him flying, but the fact that he took the hit and could still fight him is a problem.

Base Naruto compared to Six Paths Sage Mode + KCM​

I take it from my previous reply here.

Boruto (Momoshiki)​

Base Naruto got kicked in the face through a stadium by Momoshiki and isn't hurt (anime).
Base Naruto fought against Momoshiki and took hits from him (anime and manga).

Boruto (Delta)​

Base Naruto took hits from Delta and could slam her into the ground, kept up with her in speed, etc. (anime and manga).

Boruto (Jigensshiki)​

Base Naruto kicked Isshiki in his face and left a wound (manga).
Base Naruto took a few knees from Isshiki (manga).

CS1 Sasuke compared to CS2 Sasuke​

CS1 Sasuke took hits from KN1 Naruto then matched him with a 10x amp, which makes no sense.

Because of this thread, this point is moot.

Base and CS1 Jugo compared to CS2 Jugo​

CS1 Jugo is comparable to Suigetsu for their feats of clashing.
Suigetsu could block a hit from Ay. The same Ay who could punch into CS2 Jugo, who's supposed to be 10x stronger than the one that fought Suigetsu.

In Conclusion​

Those multipliers should be axed for SM, and possibly the Curse Mark as well.

I don't really agree cause goku also fights his opponents in base at first and the same can be said so naruto. I don't think naruto facing momoshiki,isshiki and delta in base contradicts the verse's use of multiplers.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

@KingTempest; can you write up proposals for what the changed ratings would be?

@Damage3245 @Shadowbokunohero are the changes from here good?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/curse-mark-and-sage-mode-multiplier-removal-crt.119609/post-3909249

https://vsbattles.com/threads/curse-mark-and-sage-mode-multiplier-removal-crt.119609/post-3909280

 

[Baubawang11]

So why do you think that statement about CS2 was made and highlighted so much with a black background? And why would Kishimoto give an exact number if he didn't want the viewers to know the form was a 10x multiplier?

Now you're just arguing semantics. You know the point of the statement is to say SM boosted Jiraiya's jutsu by more than 10x.

Even if you say the other Sound Four member's boosts don't scale to Jirobo, Jirobo's 10 strength multiplier comes from Jugo, so Jugo's CS2 would give a 10x multiplier if not higher as the original, which is consistent with the implication that the CS is watered down

So Jirobo's 10x multiplier would be from Jugo, and Jugo boosted EMS Sasuke to BSM Naruto's level, so yeah it's consistent that SM is 10x or higher.

Uh...ok, you say that, but it's literally true and when I gave my response to your response to my my debunk, you didn't reply.

I agree with you, curse mark is also not perfect seninka, naruto also said sage mode increases his speed.

sage mode boost power taijutsu, ninjutsu and genjutsu, this can't be said sage mode is not a multiplier.

 

[shinoahiiragi]

I agree with you, curse mark is also not perfect seninka, naruto also said sage mode increases his speed.

sage mode boost power taijutsu, ninjutsu and genjutsu, this can't be said sage mode is not a multiplier.

Nothing you said justifies it being a 10x multiplier.

 

[Baubawang11]

Nothing you said justifies it being a 10x multiplier.

Didn't he explain it? I will finish here. It says Sage mode boost ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu

From the databook, the flame bomb is 10 times bigger than before

This is a ninjutsu boost.

It's been said that nature's chakra boosts 10 times, even for an imperfect sage like Jiraiya

 

[shinoahiiragi]

From the databook, the flame bomb is 10 times bigger than before

This is a ninjutsu boost.

10x larger =/= 10x stronger.

 

[Baubawang11]

10x larger =/= 10x stronger.

Everyone with curse mark 10 times stronger than before.

"When Level 2 is activated, the bearer’s chakra levels increase ten times over and the unbalanced senjutsu chakra induces a mutation known as the Cursed Seal Transformation. It enhances all of their physical capabilities such as their strength, speed, durability and stamina, grants them an altered physiology better suited for battle and raises the power of their ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu and even their kekkei genkai beyond their previous limits."

Orochimaru’s Cursed Seal

Orochimaru’s cursed seal is a forbidden technique which is designed to give its bearer more powerful chakra, transform their body and enslave them to his will. It contains his senjutsu chakra, a sp…

narutoversity.wordpress.com

 

[Nullflowerblush]

please go back to the first page of the thread

 

[shinoahiiragi]

"When Level 2 is activated, the bearer’s chakra levels increase ten times over and the unbalanced senjutsu chakra induces a mutation known as the Cursed Seal Transformation. It enhances all of their physical capabilities such as their strength, speed, durability and stamina, grants them an altered physiology better suited for battle and raises the power of their ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu and even their kekkei genkai beyond their previous limits."

Orochimaru’s Cursed Seal

Orochimaru’s cursed seal is a forbidden technique which is designed to give its bearer more powerful chakra, transform their body and enslave them to his will. It contains his senjutsu chakra, a sp…

narutoversity.wordpress.com

You haven't read the OP, do you?

 

[Baubawang11]

please go back..

Sage mode is perfect mode, orochimaru can't even use perfect sage mode. curse mark adds 10 times chakra which will make strength 10 times stronger, increase speed, make genjutsu, ninjutsu, genjutsu stronger

Sage mode doesn't show 10 times the power, because this is a more perfect senjutsu than the curse mark, sage mode should be more than 10 times more powerful.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Sage mode is perfect mode, orochimaru can't even use perfect sage mode. curse mark adds 10 times chakra which will make strength 10 times stronger, increase speed, make genjutsu, ninjutsu, genjutsu stronger

Sage mode doesn't show 10 times the power, because this is a more perfect senjutsu than the curse mark, sage mode should be more than 10 times more powerful.

Please read This, it covers your arguments.

 

[KingTempest]

Me in the OP

Among the Cursed Seals, the seals of Heaven and Earth hold exceptional “power”. Although their actual effect and potency are not directly evident, the truth of why they were carved into Kimimaro and Sasuke is to draw out their excess “power”.

Yall

It's obviously a boost.

If Kishimoto said the boost doesn't emphasize the strength produced, then I'm confused why yall are trying to say it's a 10x amp

 

[Baubawang11]

Me in the OP

Yall

If Kishimoto said the boost doesn't emphasize the strength produced, then I'm confused why yall are trying to say it's a 10x amp

Sage mode is a perfect senjutsu, curse mark which is known to boost 10 times regardless of the user's ability.

Let's just say that tayuya doesn't strengthen physical strength other than genjutsu, and let's just say that sakon ukon improves his ninjutsu. then sage mode boost 10 times or more over everything like genjutsu (like tayuya), taijutsu (like jirobo), ninjutsu (like sakon ukon).

 

[KingTempest]

OP is not being read. Read it over

 

[RisingIons]

Y’all went from a 10x boost to saying it’s not even more than 10x….not helping

 

[Baubawang11]

Me in the OP

Yall

If Kishimoto said the boost doesn't emphasize the strength produced, then I'm confused why yall are trying to say it's a 10x amp

OP is not being read. Read it over

I've read and then read the databook with lowball cs but it's not approved, every curse mark user does not strengthen ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu (as seen), but Sage mode users are able to boost genjutsu, ninjutsu, taijutsu including physical strength.
-what about sasuke? yes, he strengthened his ninjutsu but did his physical strength get stronger? of course.
-What about Sakon Ukon? they increase the strength of the cell (ninjutsu). they increase 10 times strength including physical and ninjutsu. (databook)
-What about Jirobo? he increases offense and defense, it's a taijutsu boost. with cs mode he is just like the others, it strengthens physical strength.
-Tayuya power? he increased his genjutsu, during the second mode, his physique is also stronger "because we use jirobo statement, the second mode amplifies the power 10 times more than before" so jirobo amplifies taijutsu, its power comes from taijutsu (curse mark increases anyone's power)
-kidomaru's power? increase the sharpness of the eyes, his physical strength also increases in the second mode.
-Kimimaru's power? increase his bone strength more than before, making kimimaru physique stronger too

 

[Baubawang11]

I've read and then read the databook with lowball cs but it's not approved, every curse mark user does not strengthen ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu (as seen), but Sage mode users are able to boost genjutsu, ninjutsu, taijutsu including physical strength.
-what about sasuke? yes, he strengthened his ninjutsu but did his physical strength get stronger? of course.
-What about Sakon Ukon? they increase the strength of the cell (ninjutsu). they increase 10 times strength including physical and ninjutsu. (databook)
-What about Jirobo? he increases attack and ground, it's a taijutsu boost. with cs mode he is just like the others, it strengthens physical strength.
-Tayuya power? he increased his genjutsu, during the second mode, his physique is also stronger "because we use jirobo statement, the second mode amplifies the power 10 times more than before" so jirobo amplifies taijutsu, its power comes from taijutsu (curse mark increases anyone's power)
-kidomaru's power? increase the sharpness of the eyes, his physical strength also increases in the second mode.
-Kimimaru's power? increase his bone strength more than before, making kimimaru physique stronger too

Jirobo says cs boost power 10 times, what is jirobo's power? defense and attack (taijutsu) including physical strength.
Kimimaru's power is to strengthen his bones (ninjutsu) his physical is also stronger than before. sasuke increases the power of his ninjutsu, his physique is also stronger. so cs is boost power(ability and physical)

 

[MinatoSparkle]

10x larger =/= 10x stronger.

If flame bombs have AP of say 200 gigatons and those flames cover a 10x greater area, the overall joules of energy of the blast would be 2 teratons. That's how this site works.

Please read This, it covers your arguments.

Not all of them.

Me in the OP

Yall

If Kishimoto said the boost doesn't emphasize the strength produced, then I'm confused why yall are trying to say it's a 10x amp

It says that in the databook, but the series contradicts this, considering CS1 Sasuke was getting ragdolled by KM1 Naruto, yet he just smacked Naruto away with a wing casually after going CM2. Feats>statements, especially from databooks

OP is not being read. Read it over

Ya know actually Baubawang11 brings up a good point I hadn't thought of and you didn't mention. Even if it was only a 10x amp to the specific attribute the Sound Four member's biggest strength was, this isn't the case for SM. It's specifically noted to be an amp to all your jutsu and physical attributes, so even if the Heaven CS wasn't 10x, SM should theoretically have all the 10x boosts of CS2 from the Sound Four but amplified.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Bumpy bumpy hump hump camel

 

[MinatoSparkle]

If flame bombs have AP of say 200 gigatons and those flames cover a 10x greater area, the overall joules of energy of the blast would be 2 teratons. That's how this site works.

Not all of them.

It says that in the databook, but the series contradicts this, considering CS1 Sasuke was getting ragdolled by KM1 Naruto, yet he just smacked Naruto away with a wing casually after going CM2. Feats>statements, especially from databooks

Ya know actually Baubawang11 brings up a good point I hadn't thought of and you didn't mention. Even if it was only a 10x amp to the specific attribute the Sound Four member's biggest strength was, this isn't the case for SM. It's specifically noted to be an amp to all your jutsu and physical attributes, so even if the Heaven CS wasn't 10x, SM should theoretically have all the 10x boosts of CS2 from the Sound Four but amplified.

And I shall bump my argument

 

[KingTempest]

OP is not being read. Read it over

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Isn't the OP unanimously accepted by staff? Why can't it just be applied?

 

[Arkenis]

What’s the results ?

 

[Arkenis]

Not reading three pages

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Isn't the OP unanimously accepted by staff? Why can't it just be applied?

It has. But I think we're going to apply this during the Part I and Part II Revisions (Again)

 

[KingTempest]

Closing then