- 167,857
- 76,474
I was talking about Jim Starlin and Jim Lee.
I agree with you about Grant Morrison, who has mostly been great in his handling of DC superheroes.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Crisis Cosmology: Scaling Characters
- Thread starter Elizio33
- Start date
- Status
I agree with you about Grant Morrison, who has mostly been great in his handling of DC superheroes.
- 2,151
- 2,108
I believe that Morrisons vision for the cosmology was a sort of all-in-one vision. The Overvoid in particular most definitely was supposed to contain, and scale above all DC stories as a whole.
It's just that Snyder sort of treated it as a regular ass void, and Williamson implied that it was a "light" born out of darkness, due to Pariahs beliefs that everything good came from something bad (or something dark).
In other words, Morrison and DeMatteis had the cosmology sorted out, to be honest. Although it is DC Comics, not "Morrison/DeMatteis comics".
It's just that Snyder sort of treated it as a regular ass void, and Williamson implied that it was a "light" born out of darkness, due to Pariahs beliefs that everything good came from something bad (or something dark).
In other words, Morrison and DeMatteis had the cosmology sorted out, to be honest. Although it is DC Comics, not "Morrison/DeMatteis comics".
- 3,035
- 2,239
I need your view on what Elizio said earlier. Do you see the Light as the Presence itself?
- 3,035
- 2,239
He never truly wrote those other than in interview where his not bound to what he says even if he doesn’t mention it in the comics.
They also had problems as well. No one is prefect, everyone ideas is bound to be contradicted. There’s no set right canon.
- 3,035
- 2,239
Anyways, let’s move on since this is not the thread for this and we’re just derailing from the original topic.
Trigger
He/Him- 192
- 102
Indeed, now please can you give me a good reason as to why the 'god'(no capital) is greater/separate from the light?
- 1,414
- 3,548
I think this interpretation is the most reliable right now.
- 3,035
- 2,239
I’ve said it. The Light was never mentioned to be God in its entirety but an aspect of God that lived in Heaven and made a deal with the Dark. I haven’t seen a reason to suggest the Light = the Presence other than mentioning of “God” in the Swamp Thing story. Which only goes over a hand from the Heavens as oppose to an absolute omnipresence God that lives beyond the Greater Omniverse. The Presence is much more than just a hand. I equate the Presence when we see that God in #75 beyond all obstacle including Light and Darkness.
- 167,857
- 76,474
I am not the best person to ask, but from what I recall of Morrison's own cosmology, he intended all DC aspects of God to unite in The Overvoid.
- 3,035
- 2,239
What we saw of the Light and the Dark was a representation of duality. The Light representing the primordial light and the ultimate good as oppose to the Dark representing primordial darkness and the ultimate evil.
It was mentioned the Light hand came from Heaven. We know that Heaven contains several aspect of Godhead such as the Voice, the Word, the Presence(direct manifestation of God such as the Dog). The Light is representative of just one half of duality and is apparently equal to the Dark.
Which both are transcends by a being beyond all obstacles(Light, Darkness, Duality, Good, Evil, etc….). One beyond space and time and is one with the Void: God, the Presence(full Godhead).
The Presence > Darkness >= Light.
- 3,321
- 3,128
- Thread starter
- #131
@VeryGoofyToddler can you tell me why you believe the Presence is above the Great Darkness when no such mention has been made throughout the story? I think Joshua Williamson did a good job combining Morrison's Final Crisis, Marv Wolfman's Crisis on Infinite Earths, and Allen Moore's American Gothic and intended to combine the "burning light" mentioned in Crisis on Infinite Earths with the Overvoid, which doesn't contradict much to be honest. The only way I can find inconsistencies with Morrison's view is to use all of the information from his interviews at face value. Moving on, Joshua also combined the golden hand with light and nothing in his stories implies that the hand is an aspect of the true Presence, the Presence was always the overarching ruler of Heaven. So i don't see the contradictions
The origin of the Source corresponds to that of the Light of Creation since both were born from the Primordial Darkness and from them was born the Multiverse. The map of the multiverse labeled the Source and the Overvoid on the same position and Morrison confirmed that the two are identical. Death Metal implied that the Source and the Presence were the same and Snyder confirmed that to be the case. You can say that Snyder is no longer the center of the DC cosmology but one DC Guidebook referred the Presence as the ruler of the Hands, which doesn't contradict what Snyder said earlier. The idea of a true Presence seems to come mainly from Vertigo or DeMatteis rather than anything else. Even in Alan Moore's American Gothic, the Great Darkness was said to predate God. Regardless, I see no problem with the Light of Creation encompassing all three entities. It was written as an intangible force combining what was said years ago.
The origin of the Source corresponds to that of the Light of Creation since both were born from the Primordial Darkness and from them was born the Multiverse. The map of the multiverse labeled the Source and the Overvoid on the same position and Morrison confirmed that the two are identical. Death Metal implied that the Source and the Presence were the same and Snyder confirmed that to be the case. You can say that Snyder is no longer the center of the DC cosmology but one DC Guidebook referred the Presence as the ruler of the Hands, which doesn't contradict what Snyder said earlier. The idea of a true Presence seems to come mainly from Vertigo or DeMatteis rather than anything else. Even in Alan Moore's American Gothic, the Great Darkness was said to predate God. Regardless, I see no problem with the Light of Creation encompassing all three entities. It was written as an intangible force combining what was said years ago.
- 3,321
- 3,128
- Thread starter
- #132
How is this different from the Light? If the problem is that the Great Darkness predates it, the Great Darkness, since its introduction, has always been represented as the Primordial Darkness predating even God.
- 167,857
- 76,474
As far as I recall, it was introduced as the other half of God by Alan Moore, and ended up uniting with the light into a single whole.
Grant Morrison introduced something beyond all of the forces of Heaven with the Overvoid, which has narrative superiority to the rest of existence within DC Comics if I understood correctly.
Grant Morrison introduced something beyond all of the forces of Heaven with the Overvoid, which has narrative superiority to the rest of existence within DC Comics if I understood correctly.
- 3,035
- 2,239
There’s no mention of the Light being the Presence. That needs to be addressed first.
This is not evidently true. Aspects of God live in Heaven explained in Lucifer, Trinity of Sins, and many more story. What we’ve seen when in the “presence” of God are only the Voice, Word, etc….The Presence manifestation of Yahweh, was one belief system where he did rule Heaven, yet in the end, we’ve seen Yahweh was only a manifestation of the truer entity he was mentioned in Lucifer #75. Not to mention it was also cited that he could only interact with beings lower than him through shape and created the Light which makes no sense if he created himself?
The Source wasn’t born nor created unless you went by Kirby Fourth Lore. If you go by Thorne Green Lantern, it’s from the dark where it emerged. That’s not a creation story of the Source, that’s an origin story of “where” the Source came from since Darkness was all there was at the time.
In Spectre Vol.2 it was mentioned had Spectre used his powers properly. He could have stopped the Darkness. The three(Presence, Source, and Overvoid) is a theory and nothing more and has no correlation to the intent Morrison had since no one expanded upon it.
Last edited:
- 2,151
- 2,108
I believe the Light came from God, i.e. "let there be light" which is a very prominent quote in the religious comics side of DC.
Although I am extremely confident that whatever that original non-dual God is, it's not the Presence, or Yahweh in particular.
Although I am extremely confident that whatever that original non-dual God is, it's not the Presence, or Yahweh in particular.
- 3,035
- 2,239
God is the Presence? Just because he has aspects and different form does not limit him as that one non-dual God. Yahweh expressed himself as one with the Void and possibly even contains it. Didn’t Kuuzo explained this to you?
- 3,321
- 3,128
- Thread starter
- #137
Sure. But God was also born from it. If i remember correctly, the darkness became self-aware the moment it was awakened by the Brujería cult, although the darkness had an identity crisis. The Great Darkness is much more than just some dualistic force representing darkness or evil as it is the primordial void before all there is. Swamp Thing only appeased the darkness with the purpose to balance God's light.
- 3,035
- 2,239
The Cult mission was to bring about a primordial darkness meant to smash the throne and tear Heaven. So that the Universe can be built of it which Cain later remarks either or could end each other. This was a darkness before God blessed reality with his “Light.”
- 2,151
- 2,108
I was writing this big response to Goof and then realised that this is one limited ass cosmology and we are discussing what is accepted to be "different canons", whatever that means.
So I do have to ask, @VeryGoofyToddler, is your argument even built on this crisis cosmology (i.e. the works of Morrison, Tynion, Snyder and Williamson)?
So I do have to ask, @VeryGoofyToddler, is your argument even built on this crisis cosmology (i.e. the works of Morrison, Tynion, Snyder and Williamson)?
- 12,451
- 5,641
I don’t think this discussion rn has anything to do with scaling
- 3,321
- 3,128
- Thread starter
- #142
Save this for the DC General Discussion thread, please.
This discussion is going nowhere for this thread and most of the arguments used are not from "Crisis Cosmology" but from other interpretations that are not related.
Last edited:
- 302
- 226
Do you mean to say that The Great Darkness>God in Swamp Thing #75? If so then I disagree with that, The Great Darkness in Swamp Thing comics is precisely the fundamental entity being the opposite of The Light that determines existence where the interplay two what runs the entire cycle of creation. Even in the next few panels, it is clear that God truly encompasses both The Great Darkness and The Light.
Edit:And I also really apologize for interrupting the topic of this thread
Last edited:
- 3,035
- 2,239
Yes. You mentioning “Yahweh” was weird and I responded to that point as such. Although your notion of “non-dual” has not been mentioned in this other than a short scan of Green Lantern to describe Omni-awareness which apparently is now the Light.
- 3,321
- 3,128
- Thread starter
- #146
Stopping derailing would be a start and i'm still waiting for further contributions.
- 3,035
- 2,239
They can all be 1-B but like Prince said, the Darkness does not predate or is more powerful than the Presence. I've listed the scans above as a reason to why. The rest seems fine, I can explain more in detail since some people have trouble remembering events and what was said about the Darkness.
- 3,321
- 3,128
- Thread starter
- #149
No worries.Okay. My apologies about that.
- 3,321
- 3,128
- Thread starter
- #150
How the Endless would scale in the Crisis Cosmology? I feel like Low 1-C, possibly 1-C is good for them?
- 3,035
- 2,239
I've seen your reason early and I do agree they aren't the same as how they were written. However, I feel they should be higher than 5th Dimensional beings and falling short of the 6th.
- 3,321
- 3,128
- Thread starter
- #152
This poses no problem for me. High 1-C then?
- 3,035
- 2,239
I think 1-C, possibly High 1-C works better. However, how the Dreaming is treated is how Imagination is described despite being in the Sphere. So it's safe to put him probably above Mxy but the 5th Dimension itself seems a bit stretched. He certainly scales to it and so does his family but it's not guaranteed. So I would say 1-C, possibly High 1-C.
- 3,321
- 3,128
- Thread starter
- #154
Alright so the justification should be; (Should be superior to Mister Mxyzptlk as the ruler of the Dreaming, a realm of imagination and story within the Sphere of the Gods, an archetypal and platonic world outside the Orrery of Worlds. The Dreaming contains Lucien's library which contains all the stories of the Dark Multiverse and whose destruction could result in the destruction of the Dreaming and the Multiverse)
What do you think?
- 3,035
- 2,239
Seems good. James Tynion's run on Sandman was nice. Where he called the Shores of Night where archetypes and concepts are born. Doesn't have anything to do with it but it's a nice subtle thing to keep on mind.
- 3,035
- 2,239
My good knowledgeable friend made this idea which was founded correctly. Perpetua diminishing in status is talking about hierarchy and not power. As I'll quote:
- 3,321
- 3,128
- Thread starter
- #158
Since Dream ishould be superior to Mister Mxyzptlk, should he be just High 1-C since Mxy is straight High 1-C?
- 3,035
- 2,239
I mean we discuss the problem with it. If I recall when the Fifth Dimension was just Low 1-C, there were arguments there's no way Mxy would be Low 1-C as well. In any given case, if we don't adhere to that then yes, he can be straight High 1-C.
- 3,035
- 2,239
My personal thought is that Mxy should just be 1-C. With Dream, I've always put two things together. The point of view and the concept itself. As a whole Dream = Fifth Dimensions, while as Daniel Hall would be 1-C, since the Endless are personification “of” their concepts that's where the logic comes from. 1-C, possibly High 1-C.
- Status
