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Crisis Cosmology: Scaling Characters

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Elizio33 said:
Gods don't scale to the entirety of the Sphere of the Gods, but only to their respective realms in the Godsphere which still have qualitative superiority over the Orrery of Worlds, hence why Low 1-C is fine. Even If a High 1-C Mxy doesn't work due to existing in the Fifth Dimension, it would work due to existing above Hypertime.

Anyway, this would be my last comment on the subject.
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Last question then. You mention the Sphere is Low 1-C. You also mention that each realm of the Sphere is QS to the Orrery. Which is it? I don’t believe all the realms are equal nor are exactly the same in scaling. Is there a reason each “realm” scale to Low 1-C? The Sphere is easily Low 1-C but I feel not all realms are meant to be the same in scale.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Last question then. You mention the Sphere is Low 1-C. You also mention that each realm of the Sphere is QS to the Orrery. Which is it? I don’t believe all the realms are equal nor are exactly the same in scaling. Is there a reason each “realm” scale to Low 1-C? The Sphere is easily Low 1-C but I feel not all realms are meant to be the same in scale.
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Well, I can't say for ALL the Godsphere realms, but the New Gods realms are definitely Low 1-C via QS to the Orrery.
 
Elizio33 said:
Okay maybe 1-B might works, but let's wait a little. What do you think about this flimsy white fabric behind reality that Darkseid mentioned in an Infinite Frontier story? It seems like the unknown tier would be better for it.
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I've did some fairly extensive research on Books of Magic. The ongoing by John Ney Rieber is a very Vertigo core book, it's super self contained and stuff. The Neil Gaiman mini though, that's very DC. LIke it's literally a guide to DC's magical universe
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
I've did some fairly extensive research on Books of Magic. The ongoing by John Ney Rieber is a very Vertigo core book, it's super self contained and stuff. The Neil Gaiman mini though, that's very DC. LIke it's literally a guide to DC's magical universe
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I don't know... Let's wait for other assistance.
 
Well, I removed the staff members who I remembered to have replied here already from my list above.
 
PrinceofPein said:
Just the OP? Or any argument needs evaluating?
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The OP and this.
Elizio33 said:
Darkseid (Godhead)

Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level (Exists in the platonic and archetypal Sphere of the Gods beyond the Orrery of Worlds as a living idea, with all evil in the Multiverse consolidating into him as its focal point. With his power, Darkseid, encompassed the flimsy white fabric behind reality where unfold universal creation and destruction and where Psycho Pirate watches reality. Killed the Quintessence using his Omega Beams)

Empty Hand

Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level (Stated to be more than the equivalent of Darkseid and fought against his true form, surpassing him at one point. Command the fifth-dimensional Gentry and created them from the remains of the Pre-Crisis Multiverse)

Pariah (Dark Crisis)

Attack Potency: Varies (During the Dark Crisis, Pariah was using his machines to harness a fraction of the true power of the Great Darkness he controlled) Low Complex Multiverse level (Stated by Dr. Multiverse to be more powerful than Darkseid or Empty Hand and enslaved them both using his darkness) to High Complex Multiverse level (Pariah's darkness besieged the infinite Multiverses and caused major changes in the space aspect of the Divine Continuum)

Thought Robot

Attack Potency: Complex Multiverse level (From his perspective, Comic Book Limbo appeared like an infinitesimal disk. Exists in the archetypal Monitor world of Nil as pure thought, the "good" side of every conceptual dichotomy)

Mandrakk

Attack Potency: Complex Multiverse level (The most powerful of the Monitor race. Superior to the Thought Robot and wounded it beyond repair. Exists in the archetypal Monitor world of Nil as pure thought, the "bad" side of every conceptual dichotomy)

Mister Mxyzptlk

Attack Potency: High Complex Multiverse level (Transcend the Third Dimension and the Fourth Dimension, being the most powerful imps inhabiting the Fifth Dimension, the imaginary "blood of the multiverse" existing and flowing all around and between the realms of the DC Multiverse at the exception of the Sixth Dimension and the Source Wall)

World Forger/Monitor/Anti-Monitor (Sixth Dimension)

Attack Potency: High Complex Multiverse level (The Brothers Three surpasses everything in the DC Multiverse, being four of the most powerful few beings and residing in the Sixth Dimension, the highest plane and final realm of existence before reaching the greater Omniverse outside of the Source Wall)

Perpetua

Attack Potency: Varies (Perpetua's power varies depending on how much Crisis Energy she has within her, ranging from creating and destroying planets and galaxies around her to cracking space-time through her actions), up to High Complex Multiverse level (Superior to the Ultra-Monitor whose power was considered by Mobius to be "unlike anything he'd felt before" and her rise in power had been felt anywhere across the Multiverse and the Dark Multiverse. Her fight against the Darkest Knight was raging across all facets of reality and was collapsing existence according to the Chronicler who had stated that the stories of Multiverse were tearing apart because of them)

The Hands

Attack Potency: Hyperverse level (The Hands transcend and surpass anything and anyone in existence, being the "rulers" of the greater Omniverse beyond the Source Wall and judge the Multiverses in the "end of the void". Perpetua feared that if her siblings, the Hands, came to discover her actions, they would come for her and erase her and her Multiverse from existence)
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Hecate

Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level (Hecate is vastly superior to Nabu and the Lords of Order. With one-fifth of Hecate's power, Wonder Woman was considered more powerful than any god who ever walked the Earth and threatened to rewrite the rules of magic and change them into Hecate's language. Manitou Dawn could have destroyed Rama Kushna with a facet of Hecate's power, and Hecate said that Kama Kushina's power was nothing compared to hers)

The Upside-Down Man

Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level (Is described as Hecate's dark double, the yang to her yin and the "upside-down" of her power. If Hecate's magic was considered all the incredible possibilities, Upside Down Man's magic would be all the terrible possibilities. A piece of the Great Darkness has been described as a sliver of the Upside Down Man's power)

Daniel Hall (Dream of the Endless)

Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Complex Multiverse level (Dream is the Prince of Stories and govern them in the Dreaming within the Sphere of the Gods, an archetypal and platonic world outside the Orrery of Worlds. A section of the Dreaming contains Lucien's library which contains all the stories that should not be told of the Dark Multiverse and whose destruction could result in the destruction of the Dreaming and the Multiverse)

Barbatos

Attack Potency: Low Multiverse level (Was responsible for killing the World Forger in the Dark Multiverse. As the Dragon of the Forge, Barbatos has destroyed billions of failed universes. Threatened to disrupt the vibrational frequencies of the fifty-two universes of the Orrery with his scream, distorting their laws of physics, which would've resulted to them being swallowed by the Dark Multiverse)
 
The Light of Creation should have a profile since Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, The Source, The Presence are aspects or potentially emanations of this same whole but interpreted differently. Or at least a key named; "The Light of Creation (Crisis Cosmology)" on the following profiles: Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, The Source, The Presence.

Attack Potency: Hyperverse level (Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, The Source, The Presence are depicted as aspects of this same intangible whole. From its lights was born the entire DC Omniverse and is described as the "first star" born in defiance of the Great Darkness, harming the Great Darkness as the Light of Creation grew)

The Great Darkness (Crisis Cosmology)

Attack Potency: Hyperverse level (Is described as the single black infinitude from which the Light of Creation was born in defiance of what it is. A fraction of the true power of the Great Darkness could threaten to destroy the Omniverse and bring everything back to nothing)
 
It still seems fine to me, but it is much preferable if we receive more staff input.
 
I still don’t agree that the Presence is the same tier as the Overvoid. The Light isn’t the Presence but more of his aspect especially since he literally created the Light in almost every canon.

Nothing supports the Presence is equal to the Light. I don’t want that Hand argument since it’s of God hand within Heaven which we’ve seen countless time is an aspect of full Godhood. It should be Presence > Source ~=~ Light of Creation/Overvoid. The fountain head of all existence as mentioned by DC Events surpasses the Source given it’s no longer Snyder/Tynion being the main focal point but rather all of the one’s we mentioned. However, as I said about the Spiritual Cosmology, Crisis Cosmology doesn’t work with this many authors.
 
With that out the way. I would like to reiterate something which I, myself, has been reading over. I’ve always had the preconceived notion that the Light is equal to the Darkness, or more so, potentially more powerful. However, I have come to the conclusion of the opposite now after rereading Dark Frontier.

The Light was only managed to keep the Dark ways because the Darkness didn’t want to destroy everything despite how it looked during the Incarnate storyline especially since it was Maya who tried to interpret such events. In Deadly Green, it was clarify all the Light in the world amounts to nothing to the Darkness and could logically, if it wanted to , wash over the entirety of the Light back into the endless canvas in which everything was built. The Darkness spawned the Dark Garden in the Void(Overvoid) which is part of the Darkness as well. So it should be Presence > Darkness > Light as I see it.
 
Yes, thanks a lot to the writers who suddenly decided to turn DC Comics into a hopelessly dystopian cosmic horror setting with Lucifer as its supreme being.

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, impeccably good sense regarding the positive values and hope that it is supposed to stand for, represent, and be about...
 
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Anyway, that is likely the main reason why I currently favour keeping Morrison's original intentions for The Overvoid cosmology separate from the sheer awfulness that the horrible hacks that came after him have twisted and corrupted DC Comics into. They do not fit with each other either thematically or logically.
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, that is likely the main reason why I currently favour keeping Morrison's original intentions for The Overvoid cosmology separate from the sheer awfulness that the horrible hacks that came after him have twisted and corrupted DC Comics into. They do not fit with each other either thematically or logically.
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That I agree with and proposed long ago. The pressing issue is do we connect his older works. Which in a way still works and isn’t deny to losing value with his more recent work.
 
I do not think that everything in his older works can be seamlessly integrated with his final vision over 20 years later, but as long as we avoid making himself into the supreme being of DC Comics I will likely not have serious complaints.
 
Antvasima said:
I do not think that everything in his older works can be seamlessly integrated with his final vision over 20 years later, but as long as we avoid making himself into the supreme being of DC Comics I will likely not have serious complaints.
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Characters like the Writer from Animal Man, of course, shouldn’t be valued as the highest. Some of his writing we shouldn’t take a face value but “some” of his older works can be put. Animal Man and Kid Eternity are two good examples of things that can work. Doom Patrol is iffy but fine, the rest is either insignificant or doesn’t work.
 
I mean Neil Gaiman has kept somewhat of a canon in his writing many years later. Same with Matteis and others and Morrison is no different though he does like to experiment. I do not think his intention was for us to forget his other work that build the framework of his stories to come.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Alright but I suggest that we change the Presence = Light/Overvoid as that’s very misleading.
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@Deagonx @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Catzlaflame @LephyrTheRevanchist @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0
@Antvasima

What do you think about this?

Personally, I see the Light as the same as Presence, Overvoid and Source since multiple evidence in the comics, but I am open to suggestions.
 
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I think that Grant Morrison intended it to be that way, but that the destructive hacks who took over after him have severely distorted and corrupted his vision, and that these two cosmologies should be kept separate.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that Grant Morrison intended it to be that way, but that the destructive hacks who took over after him have severely distorted and corrupted his vision, and that these two cosmologies should be kept separate.
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Which way?
 
The way that you described.
 
There is a good reason why it was decided to only use Final Crisis and Multiversity for our combined "Crisis Cosmology". Grant's older stories do not match other contributions from writers that followed Multiversity. Morrison's original attempt for the Overvoid was mostly in his interviews and most of his statements weren't mentioned in the comics or if they were, they were vague. From my understanding, Grant wanted to do something similar to DeMatteis' vision of God with the Overvoid, but didn't work out as he planned since DC said no and retconned the Overvoid years later. This is why I was prepared to eventually begin a cosmology with Grant's most consistent material from his old stories, not now though because I'm really tired. 😴
 
Elizio33 said:
There is a good reason why it was decided to only use Final Crisis and Multiversity for our combined "Crisis Cosmology". Grant's older stories do not match other contributions from writers that followed Multiversity. Morrison's original attempt for the Overvoid was mostly in his interviews and most of his statements weren't mentioned in the comics or if they were, they were vague. From my understanding, Grant wanted to do something similar to DeMatteis' vision of God with the Overvoid, but didn't work out as he planned since DC said no and retconned the Overvoid years later. This is why I was prepared to eventually begin a cosmology with Grant's most consistent material from his old stories, not now though because I'm really tired. 😴
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That’s why Ant was suggesting we make it separate. So that it doesn’t contradict Grant as much.
 
Elizio33 said:
There is a good reason why it was decided to only use Final Crisis and Multiversity for our combined "Crisis Cosmology". Grant's older stories do not match other contributions from writers that followed Multiversity. Morrison's original attempt for the Overvoid was mostly in his interviews and most of his statements weren't mentioned in the comics or if they were, they were vague. From my understanding, Grant wanted to do something similar to DeMatteis' vision of God with the Overvoid, but didn't work out as he planned since DC said no and retconned the Overvoid years later. This is why I was prepared to eventually begin a cosmology with Grant's most consistent material from his old stories, not now though because I'm really tired. 😴
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That seems fine to me.

Sleep well. 🙏❤️
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
That’s why Ant was suggesting we make it separate. So that it doesn’t contradict Grant as much.
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Yes. Jim Lee has hardly proven to be a fountain of wisdom in either his management of Wildstorm (The Authority, Stormwatch, and other hollow ultraviolent militaristic amoral evil filth), DC Comics (He and Dan Didiot made the entire setting corrupted, joyless, and completely incoherent), or Alan Moore's ABC line (His dishonesty and lack of moral character seem to have been the main reason why Alan Moore permanently quit from making comics). In fact extremely few people in history have likely been as malignant and destructive for the North American comic book industry as he has.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
That’s why Ant was suggesting we make it separate. So that it doesn’t contradict Grant as much.
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We should keep Grant's old stories out of Crisis Cosmology, but Final Crisis and Multiversity of Morrison set the stage for what followed to expand it for better or worse and are consistent enough with those contributions since some writers paid considerable attention to what Grant was building with Multiversity. Not to mention that the map of the multiverse served as a basis for other writers to expand the cosmology, even if some considered it more of a pain in the ass than anything else. Anyway, Grant's most consistent material from his old stories could be used to make a new cosmology as Morrison originally intended, Morrison stories that aren't too coherent will be rejected.
 
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Antvasima said:
Yes. Jim Lee has hardly proven to be a fountain of wisdom in either his management of Wildstorm (The Authority, Stormwatch, and other hollow ultraviolent militaristic amoral evil filth), DC Comics (He and Dan Didiot made the entire setting corrupted, joyless, and completely incoherent), or Alan Moore's ABC line (His dishonesty and lack of moral character seem to have been the main reason why Alan Moore permanently quit from making comics). In fact extremely few people in history have likely been as malignant and destructive for the North American comic book industry as he has.
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Nevertheless, he does write in what he wants. Which is why we define each Cosmology by the author intent of what the story said. Someone like Starlin isn’t a good guy either but nevertheless we include his work in Marvel and etc….
 
Elizio33 said:
We should keep Grant's old stories out of Crisis Cosmology, but Final Crisis and Multiversity of Morrison set the stage for what followed to expand it for better or worse and are consistent enough with those contributions since some writers have paid considerable attention to what Grant was building with Multiversity. Not to mention that the map of the multiverse served as a basis for other writers to expand the cosmology, even if some considered it more of a pain in the ass than anything else. Anyway, Grant's most consistent material from his old stories could be used to make a new cosmology as Morrison originally intended, Morrison stories that aren't too coherent will be rejected.
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I don’t think that’s good enough. That is just a sublime reason, at best, we can not just detail out the nuances. We need a more of a holistic view and to really put why it can’t work. It’s seem more so a small reason on behalf of old and new works working against the tide because of the future story.

It make more sense that we use what he does recently as such Final Crisis and Multiversity to set up and establish his canon. Not continue those story with new establishing story which mainly doesn’t work as much as what you’ve suggested about Morrison’s old work.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Nevertheless, he does write in what he wants. Which is why we define each Cosmology by the author intent of what the story said. Someone like Starlin isn’t a good guy either but nevertheless we include his work in Marvel and etc….
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Yes, but I at least prefer to keep the damage they create that is logically extremely incoherent with other prominent stories (since they are extremely arrogant and narcissistic bull in a china shop types of people who do not care about wantonly causing enormous amounts of damage) separate.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
I don’t think that’s good enough. That is just a sublime reason, at best, we can not just detail out the nuances. We need a more of a holistic view and to really put why it can’t work. It’s seem more so a small reason on behalf of old and new works working against the tide because of the future story.

It make more sense that we use what he does recently as such Final Crisis and Multiversity to set up and establish his canon. Not continue those story with new establishing story which mainly doesn’t work as much as what you’ve suggested about Morrison’s old work.
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I agree about keeping Morrison's vision separate from the newer (awful) cosmology.
 
Antvasima said:
Yes, but I at least prefer to keep the damage they create that is logically extremely incoherent with other prominent stories (since they are extremely arrogant and narcissistic bull in a china shop types of people who do not care about wantonly causing enormous amounts of damage) separate.
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His older works were definitely more “tamed” than all the metaness and control he had when creating a Crisis story. Evidently, I think combining his work with other is no better than using his older work, to which, at least has his ideas that are reused in later story and doesn’t contradict his intent then as he does now.
 
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