Let's not derail this thread please and the raptor was saying that the Judges of the Source (or the Hands) would come to enact their "cosmic judgment" on the multiverse, which happened in this scene, before choosing to restore reality.
Oh yeah that is true. But the Hands are the ones who had enacted the cosmic judgment on the multiverse at the end of Death Metal. That's all I was saying.
Bump.
If everything (prior) has been agreed to, why don't we make the changes?
The problem is that even Yuga Khan was operating outside of the Source Wall in this same story and Yuga Khan, while superior to New Gods, isn't on the same level as Death of the Endless or any other Endless..
The 4 issue Books of Magic run isn't a Vertigo title. It's actually a full on DC comic with people like Darkseid, High father, Spectre, Doctor Fate, Madam Xanadu, Zatanna, Merlin and others all appearing in it. The fact that it was brought forward is indeed enough to warrant it being allowed for Death. What it's referencing is what's happening on the panel in the annual. Only difference is it's details are updated to match DC's current cosmology.
last I checked, isn't mxy < moniter sphere?
In the Crisis Cosmology, Mxy is above the Monitor Sphere because of Snyder's portrayal of the Fifth Dimension.
I'm not sure. I don't recall anything significant being mentioned about it.
Where's Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman? I just noticed she's missing. Shouldn't she be on par with Darkest Knight and Perpetua in terms of her tier?
1. It has been described as being behind reality, where universes are created and destroyed and from which Psycho Pirate watches reality. Apart from this information, we know nothing!
It's considered a 2-A feat because it was replacing the main universes that were being destroyed.
Yeah, but Mxy doesn’t scale to the entirety of the Fifth Dimension which is more metaphorical place of Imps and Imagination than an actual realms like Monitor Sphere.
Indeed, but we don't know if the Monitor Sphere is really above Mxy or not. It wouldn't be that far-fetched to believe he's above the Monitor Sphere since imps are above Hypertime, which was revealed to be half of existence in Flashpoint Beyond.
The residents of the Monitor Sphere should be lower than Mxy by virtue of the Fifth Dimesnion existing above the Monitor Sphere. However, Mxy by himself compared to the Monitor Sphere is something different than comparing the realms to realms and individual to individual.
Does that really matter? The Dark Multiverse is separate of the Map, anyways. We don’t know the equivalent of the Monitor Sphere for the Dark Multiverse which exist outside the regular Multiverse. I don’t think even Perpetua or Darkest Knight fully scale to it.
Are you suggesting a varying tier depending on which plane of existence Mxy is? If yes, i could see: Varies. 4-B to 2-C, up to High 1-C in the Fifth Dimension.
They scale above it by virtue of the Sixth Dimension. By feats alone, no. By cosmological position and hierarchy, yes.
Maybe. I’m not in the mind set that any being outside the Judges can just destroy everything easily. If Monitor Sphere is 1-C and the Fifth Dimension is High 1-C. It’s more likely Mxy is around 1-C at the lower end, not totally superior to the Sphere nor fully scaling to the Fifth Dimension. They take and use the power of imagination, they are not imagination themselves.
No one should scale above the Dark Multiverse except the Judges and the Source. It’s literally disconnected from the regular Multiverse where the 6th Dimension is housed.
We should save this discussion for another thread or on my PM if you wish.
Anyway, what do you think of the proposal?
Of course! I was more talking about hierarchy and position in the cosmology rather than feats. The imp seemingly share a similar nature as the Fifth Dimension since they are referred to as "guardian angels" or "Imaginary friends" or the most obvious; "Imaginary-thought constructs".
Since they’re from imagination then those titles are fitting. It’s not like the New Gods can just destroy the Sphere where they reside or Angels being superior to Heaven outside the Demiurgic Archangels.
Imps are still above Hypertime, although there is not enough evidence of qualitative superiority. So, i think that Varies. 4-B to 2-C, up to High 1-C in the Fifth Dimension works well.
The New Gods have been accepted as Low 1-C because their true forms share a similar nature to the Sphere of the Gods and this is also the case with the Imps and the Fifth Dimension, so i don't see why High 1-C seems random. Even the Monitors shares a similar nature to the Monitor Sphere as thoughts of Monitor-Mind. Plus, i already told you that this is primarily by virtue of their hierarchical position in the cosmology and that the Imps are above Hypertime which is half of existence. The varying tier was just a proposition.
That’s the problem. It doesn’t work like that simply because of the relationship between the Gods. Has it been established that the Fifth Dimension is like that? If not, we can’t just do that and I don’t agree New Gods both avatar or true form scale to the entirety of the Sphere just one section of their belief system. Darkseid can scale to both New Genesis and Apokolips in his true form but all the other realms outside in their own setting, I don’t think so.
Monitors, none of them, scale to the entire Sphere either. The hierarchical position as you call it ignoring common logic, you can not make a random assumption of scaling with resident to where they originated from. Hence separate individuals from locations. It gives the wrong impression of scaling to do that. However, I do understand that context fits some character better such as the Gods but it doesn’t to other beings.
Gods don't scale to the entirety of the Sphere of the Gods, but only to their respective realms in the Godsphere which still have qualitative superiority over the Orrery of Worlds, hence why Low 1-C is fine. Even If a High 1-C Mxy doesn't work due to existing in the Fifth Dimension, it would work due to existing above Hypertime.
