Conceptual Punches vs Conceptual Stabs! (REDUX)

[Monarch_Laciel]

I support DI because it's an entertaining story, has good music, some humor, and is largely self-coherent with only minor plot holes and contradictions.

I don't support the rest of Shinza (masadaverse excluding Senshikan) because, in my eyes at least, it retcons a bunch of stuff to make the series stronger for no reason. And I don't support Senshikan because I know very little about it. It does have good music though.

 

[ALRF]

@Monarch

The spell is about Mercurius since he's the creator of the Castle IIRC.

Everything else is because of Reinhard/Gladsheimrs property (µêªÕÑ┤Òü»Òâ®ÒéñÒâ│ÒâÅÒâ½ÒâêÒüîÕ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéïÚÖÉÒéèõ©ìµ╗àÒüºÒüéÒéèÒÇüÒüƒÒü¿Òü굡╗ÒéôÒüºÒééõ¢òÕ║ªÒüºÒééÞÿçÒéïÒüôÒü¿ÒüîÒüºÒüìÒéïÒÇéÒâ®ÒéñÒâ│ÒâÅÒâ½ÒâêÒü»õ©ìµ¡╗Þ║½Òü«µêªÕÑ┤ÒüƒÒüíÒéÆÞ╗ìÕïóÒü¿ÒüùÒüªÞç¬þö▒Þç¬Õ£¿Òü½µîçµÅ«ÒüùÒüªµêªÒüåÒÇé)

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I'm aware that Reinhard can resurrect them all himself, that's shown in the same route. "Even if I condem myself to inaction, the Beast shall no doubt force them to return sooner or later"


But Reinhard resurrecting them isn't instant, unlike when Karl (using Sensory name to differentiate) is helping out.
"In his case, however, it should take some time. Reviving a battalion is far more arduous a task than the resurrection of a mere handful of legionaires"

@Kal, that last sentence is referring to how Reinhard can instantly restore the single souls of his skeleton warriors who are fighting Kei, but when it comes to restoring the Three Commanders who are made of hundred thousand souls, restoring all those souls at once is going to take more time)

 

[ALRF]

For instance, the Beast never cared for their resurrction.

And secondly, that was a nerfed Kemono-dono due to Ren's Briah weakening the power of Gladsheimr.

Far different from peak (well peak as in not restricted) Reinhard who could instantly make his legion come back during Methuselah fight

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

He did care for their resurrection later though, and he outright asks Merc to do it instead of just doing it himself, because he knows Merc can do it instantly and it will take too much time to do it himself.
Fair enough, but are you sure that Merc's spell was not active during the fight with Meth?

This is all irrelevant anyway, as Reinhard (or Merc) actively forcing Machina to resurrect in this match would be outside help.

 

[ALRF]

And who would stop me should i refuse? If you wish to have the eigth opened, reassemble Machina and Samiel this very instant

Bruh That's literally goes against what you said. He's not asking, he's literally not giving a **** for them and tells Merc if he wants the eigth to be opened he resurrect them

And no? It's the opposite. They resurrect even without his opinion. On the other hand he can stop them from resurrecting. IIRC there's a statement about infinite resurrection and stuff, don't remember which route though. I will go search for it

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Reinhard wants the 8th open and is telling Merc to complete the plan they both made together. He's saying "if you want this, then resurrect them" as in "isn't this what you were planning for me all along, why are you stopping now?". Mercurius however has changed his mind at this point and wants to start the plan all over again. Hence why Merc does not resurrect them. Reinhard actually attacks Merc over this disagreement.

That scene kinda contradicts that though. Without Mercurius using his spell, Reinhard would need to force them to resurrect, showing that it would be a purposeful action.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This all just sounds me like the series became stronger than what you wanted it to be and that annoyed you.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Irrelevant to the discussion. Do you have any input relevant to the thread?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If it is then why did you bring it up in the first place? It just made you look worse.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Because I felt the need to clarify to Gargoyle. Perhaps I should have done that on his wall. Feel free to remove the comment. But if you care that much about what I think, take it up on my wall, not here

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

Better to bring this up in the actually relevant thread so derail doesn't happen even more.

And I am not even sure what is being argued. That Machina doesn't benefit from the Regenerationn/resurrection by Gladsheimr?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@EMC I don't think it is relevant to bring up my feelings about Masada's works here.

As for what is being argued, Well it started when Karl said Merc wasn't resurrecting anyone, and I showed a scan that said otherwise. That made me aware that Reinhard needs to purposefully resurrect them, and that without Merc's help it is not instant resurrection.

It's not that Machina doesn't benefit from the resurrection - it's that him being resurrected would be outside help, because it would be essentially Reinhard walking into the fight and resurrecting Machina to go another round.

 

[ALRF]

@EMC

That basically Machina cannot resurrect

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

Nono, I mean in the Masadaverse discussion thread.

As for the resurrection part. I am pretty sure that is automatic considering that the skeletons immediately returned after being destroyed. The problem is that all of this happens while Reinhard is restrained, so it is a bit hard to tell the exact time frame of the Commanders coming back in comparison to the "normal" troops. But we know that he can choose when to resurrect someone and when not to, as seen in Rea's route, although considering this is a certain wicked saint we are talking about, I don't think we can assume from there that it is instant for everyone, even if Reinhard is at full power.

... Well, I say instant but at full power, I guess it'd be under a minute or so.

And I assume this is under the event that Machina does get hit and not that he loses to Shiki, correct? Or whatever the scenario is.

 

[Yamatoryujin]

I think that Monarch has the right mind of things in the sense that healthy scepticism towards the Masadaverse is a natural thing, considering many of the games remain untranslated, and that you can count the number of people on this who've read most of the works on both hands.

The three commanders have just gone through a revision, so it would probably be for the best if you were to remake this thread. As for the Einherjar's immortality, I'm of the mindset that them being resurrected shouldn't really be classed as outside help, they're quite literally linked with Reinhard, they receive soul supplementation from his castle, they're apart of his castle, they're immortality should also fall in line. Back in Ikabey, Reinhard's briah kept resurrecting his legion along with the L.D.O (who were not apart of the castle, but still in its proximity) after Methuselah time acceded them. During the free for all between, Bey, Machina, and Wolfgang; Bey straight up died, had his body completely destroyed and was resurrected after a short amount of time (I want to say a few minutes or so or so afterwards, that was passively and prior to the ritual, but don't quote me on the time I'll have a look after I've posted this)ÒÇÇ

 

[Yamatoryujin]

Wait doesn't Shiki have trouble cutting lines of death with an advanced concept of death? Like how she couldn't cut Araya when he had a Śarīra in his arm? I don't think she can even cut Machina's lines.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Yamato

That's because the Sarira was an enlightened Buddha who had the property of being alive despite being extinguished. That's not the same as the constantly regenerating Einherjar.

 

[VoidGoji]

Machina is mix of 60k+ souls + a tank + a guy that already died in World War but had his "death" stolen by Reinhard. Einherjars are also said to "transcend death" iirc

 

[Yamatoryujin]

The point was that Shiki has difficulty cutting lines of death which are far above the regular concept of death, which is what I believe the Einherjar to be. Einherjar are already what you'd consider "dead", they're simply souls given form by Reinhard, similarly to what Ren can do with Marie, their connected to Reinhard's castle which is on the verge of Atziluth. Although Shiki does have a unique understanding of the concept of death, I highly doubt she would be able to perceive the lines on the commanders, perhaps the regular L.D.O, but certainly not the Einherjar. Each case in which they have "died" was due to extremely unordinary circumstances, ones that I highly doubt Shiki can even replicate. Also might be a bit of a stretch, feel free to interject, but wouldn't Tohno's issues with Nrvnqsr also be magnified with those under Ewigkiet?ÒÇÇ

Edit - Ryougi struggled to perceive the lines of death on Araya but she was eventually able to understand them and trace them with her sword. I don't think she'd have enough time to do that with Machina. Also ignore what I said about Tohno, since those two's MEOD aren't really compareable.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Einherjar are stated to lack a concept of death. I don't take that at face value though, as it is a single sentence amidst text talking about how if they are killed they will be resurrected. Given the context, I take it as a flowery (and Masada loves his floweryness) way of saying that if they are killed they will be resurrected rather than saying that they do not have the metaphysical concept that forms reality.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Yama, Shiki kills ghosts and corpses, both of which it was said she wouldn't be able to do because they were already dead. She did it anyway. As long as Machina is up and moving around, she'll perceive him as living, and will be able to enforce his death

 

[Schnee_One]

This thread is shit

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I'm annoyed it's Assassin Shiki not Saber being used

 

[Yamatoryujin]

Yes I know, but she had issues with Araya due to Sarira. Sarira, leftovers of a body of one who has achieved enlightenment and freed themselves from Samsara. Shiki struggled to understand this concept of "death". I'm sure she would have issues with Einherjar as well, including her lack of knowledge of Ewigkiet,

 

[Reppuzan]

@Yamato

It's mainly due to the Sarira's nature as "extinguished, but alive", so while it was dead, it was also alive, which interfered with her perception of the normal concept of death.

Einherjar may or may not have the same properties, given that they can also be killed by other Einherjar but revived by Gladsheimr.

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

Machina FRA

 

[Akalavashimu]

so.... machina will come back even if he got slashed by shiki right? even if its not insta ressu. so its either inco if machina cant ressu or machina won if he can ressu

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

last i check machina is connected to reinhard and glasheirm so....

 

[fandom_1cheapskate]

The res is not important this is a close quarters who hits first scenario the winner is the better at either landing their attack or being able to dodge the opponents and im leaning towards Machina at this point since he was able to react and counter attack in near stopped time Machina FRA

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Machina fra

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Current Vote Count?

 

[fandom_1cheapskate]

with me switchin from incon to Machina I think its

Shiki 0 Machina 6 Incon 1

 

[fandom_1cheapskate]

theres a lot of irrelevant conversations here so I may have misinterpreted some votes please feel free to correct if I am off

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Imma vote Inconclusive FRA