Arjuna Alter vs Machina

[Embracetophats]

Additionally, Dina took down Wilhelm with nanomachines carrying curses. I am sure Arjuna will have curses in his arsenal somewhere. He did curse that red headed Crypter servant after all

Also, what the **** is this?

Did you read the novel?

Did you not read that when Wilhelm pulled a "gotcha!" and stated that he was acting the whole time?

Red even linked the scan here.

Good to see your reading skills are on point.


He says that it affected him, though it wasnt enough to actually do what he acted out.


Doesnt mean that Arjuna cant just pull a much stronger curse if he wants.


The argument is "curses work. Weak ones do a little. Stronger ones do a lot more"

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

You know that se is referring to the fact that humanity has advanced enough to create weapons like that, nanomachines being able to be used like that when a few decades prior phones didn't existed.

It is not meant to be taking seriously

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

This match doesn't looks good from what i see now o.o'

 

[Embracetophats]

You know that se is referring to the fact that humanity has advanced enough to create weapons like that, nanomachines being able to be used like that when a few decades prior phones didn't existed.
It is not meant to be taking seriously

Ok


So you contradicted the points the people above made in saying that magic is required because if the nanomachines are just science, then anything is effective on them, both magical and scientific.


Not that it matters since magic is the same as science in the nasuverse anyway

 

[Embracetophats]

LDO members also have a massive stamina issue. A Briah only lasts a few hours at most and after that they power down, run on empty, lose the ability to regenerate and lose their armour.

IIRC, The Einherjar have the souls of Glads flow through them and thus they will never run out of souls.


Also, erase the large spaces between blobs of text as it elongates each comment unnecessarily.

• laughs in Schreiber's empty soul reserves*

 

[Lenus010]

going by the logic Rusalka and Mercurius are equals right? Rusalka can harm Mercurius because they both have magic no? any LDO member can harm Reinhard because all of them have the same magical properties right? and before you try and cop out with saying "well its a matter of souls" thats irrelevant because they use their magic to absorb those souls and they also use magic to burn them, so by virtue of your very own logic, Rusalka and Mercurius are equal, RIGHT? your Beatrice example is very redundant as well, Marie decapitated Eleonore and she came right back, i am very confused as to what that is supposed to prove.

what exactly are Machina's "regular magic punches" you mean his Yetzirah which is stated to be close in power to his briah, and is dense with the concept of death? sure bud, if you insist, but its not like he could shatter Wilhelms soul in it which contains over eight thousand more souls or something. don't get me twisted btw, I do think Alterjuna wins, but the way you are trying to convolute context and logic within the visual novel is very questionable.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Schreiber doesn't have empty soul reserves, what are you talking about?

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Lenus010

Calm down, dude.

 

[Lenus010]

did i come off as heated?

 

[Embracetophats]

Schreiber doesn't have empty soul reserves, what are you talking about?

Did you magically miss the part where Ren decapitated Schreiber when he fought the 3 commanders the 2nd time?

 

[Embracetophats]

going by the logic Rusalka and Mercurius are equals right? Rusalka can harm Mercurius because they both have magic no? any LDO member can harm Reinhard because all of them have the same magical properties right? and before you try and cop out with saying "well its a matter of souls" thats irrelevant because they use their magic to absorb those souls and they also use magic to burn them, so by virtue of your very own logic, Rusalka and Mercurius are equal, RIGHT?
your Beatrice example is very redundant as well, Marie decapitated Eleonore and she came right back, i am very confused as to what that is supposed to prove.

what exactly are Machina's "regular magic punches" you mean his Yetzirah which is stated to be close in power to his briah, and is dense with the concept of death? sure bud, if you insist, but its not like he could shatter Wilhelms soul in it which contains over eight thousand more souls or something. don't get me twisted btw, I do think Alterjuna wins, but the way you are trying to convolute context and logic within the visual novel is very questionable.

1- Mercurius is literally a hollow shade. He even says so about his sensories when he is dying with only half his body remaining. That ability isnt magic to begin with, it is something else, just how Marie originally touching someone when she was alive would eventually result in that person dying an early death and people called her a cursed child and killed her for it. You also have psychic abilities in the setting as well. Not all abilities are magical in nature.


2 - Reinhard not only has all those souls, but he also has the spear that has the literal ability to grant people immortality, among many other abilities. The Berlin ritual granted him and immortal body and nearly unbreakable flesh, as noted in the narration where Methusalah first used his aging ability and it hit Reinhard. I didnt say that the difference in souls was utterly inconsequential. I said that the difference between the massively weakened soul of an LDO member and a full power commander isnt all that great.


3 - souls are the fuel, they arent magic itself. Burning souls by itself isnt magic. For more info, refer to Lisa's explanation on magic and using the power of nature vs using human souls.


4 - "Eleonore got decapitated"...no, she got the front part of her throat slit. "Decapitation" involves separating the spine and all tendons and ligaments and your head falling from your shoulders. Not that it would matter for your argument anyway since Marie flat out said that thst wasnt her real body anyway.


5- no person got killed by his non-briah punches, not even Cain who got knocked out. Even Trifa thst was getting his defenses negated by them took several dozens of them and didnt do much. The "concept of death" isnt worth much if it doesnt take instant and complete effect. Ren compares it to a sort of poison that slowly eats someone up and Rea says that what it does is that it gradually weakens and causes one's body to break. In yugioh terms, he is just using "burn" damage


6- the souls arent inside the person's actual soul dude. Did you miss the part where schreiber said "if i tried to directly touch someone's soul with my own, i would get split personality"? The weapon holds the souls and transfer the raw energy to the user.the soul stock and the person's soul are separate (i think that specific explanation may be from the Rusalka novel though).


Alternatively, did you forget the whole deal about killing someone via breaking their relic? Or did you perhaos forget that in the Marie route, that the final seal was broken due to sakurai's sword breaking and releasing all the souls inside that were then absorbed by the seal?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Did you magically miss the part where Ren decapitated Schreiber when he fought the 3 commanders the 2nd time?

I'm pretty sure that got retconed with IkaBey and Wil having an infinite fuel thanks to Gladsheimr

 

[Embracetophats]

^ pretty sure that wasnt limitless. It was just a whole lot.


About 800 thousand according to Ren, who states that all the divisions of the SS make up the bulk and core of the palace.


So about 6 times Schreiber's stock

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Machina Sues his way to victory yet agai

 

[Dysmity]

Gladsheimr has infinite souls in the sense that due to being in a constant state of destruction and creation means no amount of soul is ever being wasted upon consumption.

This is why unlike regular Apostles, Einherjar has no problem of putting all of their fuel into one attack and still fight endlessly

 

[Embracetophats]

Ok, i suppose we can let this topic go


My vote is for Arjuna


Teleport spam, reality erasure, long range expert, powerful curses, etc...


Dont see a boxer landing a hit on him

 

[Embracetophats]

This is why unlike regular Apostles, Einherjar has no problem of putting all of their fuel into one attack and still fight endlessly

Unless you are schreiber. And the other 2 since all the soul counts that are ever brought up for them in DI are their own.

Same for Machina in IkaBey if i recall correctly as well. He was a Einherjar since he was created and told Ren that from that moment that he was "bound to the castle more strongly than anyone else"

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

>Unless you are schreiber. And the other 2 since all the soul counts that are ever brought up for them in DI are their own.

Retconed by IKaBey

>He was a Einherjar since he was created and told Ren that from that moment that he was "bound to the castle more strongly than anyone else"

Maybe because he was an Einherjar since the very moment "Machina" was created. None of the others where einherjars by the time of IKaBey AFAIK

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Also, I vote for Machina.

Type 8 on Rein lol nopes anything and speed is equal plus the fact that the guy could keep up with Ren despite him accelerating and going by Eleanore statement, battle knowledge and skill was enough for her to tango with Finale Ren despite the blitz.

In the end Machina just needs one hit and done.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

yeah going with OPM fra

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I'm going with composite hindu god FRA.

Type 8 won't stop incap from a few miles away... in the air... out of punching range.

 

[Embracetophats]

Also, I vote for Machina.
Type 8 on Rein lol nopes anything and speed is equal plus the fact that the guy could keep up with Ren despite him accelerating and going by Eleanore statement, battle knowledge and skill was enough for her to tango with Finale Ren despite the blitz.

In the end Machina just needs one hit and done.

equal speed doesnt ammount to much when instant teleportation and flight is in favour of the other side.


> "keep up with Ren despite him accelerating". meaningless due to speed equal

did you miss the lenghty explanation in that scene on how that can only happen because Ren and him are the same person and continuously synch themselves to result in a stalemate? you know, the explanationt where Ren says that he doesnt know if Machina is the one getting on his level or if it is Ren getting on Machina's level?

the one one that is immediately preceeded by Ren saying that that full power machina is still slower than base Wilhelm, which is something stated again in Will VS Schreiber VS Machina?


> "Cant die because of Type 8"

Schreiber died from getting an arm rammed through him and didnt revive for 2 days.

Got shot in the back and on his motorcycle by shirou. stayed dead

both Machina and Eleonore stayed dead from being killed inside the castle with Beatrice's sword

Eleonore cut her own head off and stayed dead.


and this is me just going out of my way not to name the examples where the guilhotine was used to avoid further disucussion

 

[Warren_Valion]

Speed Amps are still allowed in a speed equal fight.


And no? Ren and Machina's connection have nothing to do with Machina and Ren fighting on a "even" plain.

Machina and Elenore - who are slower than Ren, were stated to keep up to Ren via their "fighting experience", not because of some esoteric connection between them.

Also, did you miss the point in the fight where it is stated that it doesn't even matter if Machina can't hit you because he is slow because his punches cause a pressure which is a weapon in and of itself?

Schreiber while ultizing his Briah, which was bending space as he stood still so no one could ever touch him, and Trifa was able to bypass this and kill Schreiber, an Einherjar, in one hit. Later fights with Trifa show that his punches aren't that strong according to Ren, and so the logical assumption of how he one-shot Schreiber and bypassed his Briah would most likely be because he used the LLT - the object which negates distance to always hit its opponent. Or at least, that's the best reason I can come up with, I admit it is speculation, but that scene was genuinely contradictive on Trifa's power established later in the novel - so I'd just ignore it, honestly.


I don't remember the full fight with Shirou, so I can't give context here - so I won't bother.

And hello? Did you forget the plot point of Beatrice begging Mercurius to not resurrect the commanders after she kills them and him and Reinhard agreeing to that request? That's why they didn't come back.

I also don't remember much of Elenore cutting off her own head, so again, I'll refrain from commenting on this topic.

And what? The guillotine? You mean the weapon that possess the Curse of Maire which even works on Mercurius and therefore is 1-A in potency? That Death Curse? Of course that kills the others permanently.


You have a bad habit of stripping context to try and furthur your argument.

And again, please erase the large spaces between your points as it artificially inflates your comments and therefore, the thread itself.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I'm going with composite hindu god FRA.
Type 8 won't stop incap from a few miles away... in the air... out of punching range.

What are Arjuna's incap options?

 

[Embracetophats]

1- yeah the connection matters because he is stated multiple times tobe slower than Wilhelm and in the Sakurai route with close to 100% of his power was still slow enough that you can use sound to predict him. Not even Reinhard can even see Ren because of how fast he is and has to rely on precog to fight him and only defensively. The only time Reinhard attack was because Ren paused his attack

2- "combat experience" precog doesnt last long for anyone expect perhaps Reinhard. Did you miss Eleonore doing it against Beatrice yet in like 2 minutes she was taking hit after hit and was stated that her precog's effectiveness was being surpassed via the speed gap? How do you think she went from having a pony tail to not having one? Beatrice cut the ribbon.


Machina and Eleonore "kept up" with Ren for only a split second each in the Rea route. She did it when she blocked a predictabele frontal attack from Marie (her words, not mine) and Machina one time to save Eleonore.

In the 2nd 3V1, Eleonore said "you cant move much whe you fight on stairs, Schreiber is going to pressure you and i am going to rain hellfire on both of you and Machina is going to go there and deal the finishing blow". No one besides Briah Schreiber was keeping up with Ren.


3- Briah Schrieber isnt that hard to hit. Eleonore hit him with a round of fire, but it wasnt something he couldnt dodge. He was just focused on Ren. Against Will, he is literally stated to be vulnerable to tactics and attacks he isnt expecting or that he has no previous info about, which is why Shirou's arm holding a gun was enough to win thr fight.


4- did you forget Mercurius saying that it takes a long time for Reinhard to ressurect a commander if Merc doesnt help out? Did you miss the part where Schreiber hadnt ressurected after 2 or 3 days?

 

[Embracetophats]

Did you miss the part where Merc's law literally includes "i want Marie to kill me and reach my end that way" and is therefore his only glaring weakness, in which his own law will literally enact death upon him automatically? (Last time i researched about it, i found something that said that that weakness was the cause of Madara beating Merc's data save file)

Let me remind you that that curse has failed on 2 occasions to decapitate base Eleonore, as well as Reinhard's shade, as well as pre-hadou reinhard (also i think Cain got decapitated once by it and wasnt taken out by it, but dont quots me on that).

So i laugh in the face of that easily disprovable1-A claim

 

[Embracetophats]

"You have a bad habit of stripping context to try and furthur your argument"


Nah, that is everyone on your side buddy.


Actually taking Machina's claims about his fists not being able to beat Reinhard out of context.


Before or after that line was said, he also said "yeah i could probably kill him if i tried enough times, but that would mean a lot of deaths and ressurections and that goes against my beliefs"

So dont talk to me about removing comtext when your fandom is actively doing just that this very moment to try to magically give feats for characters out of thin air

 

[Warren_Valion]

I am going to go through all your points one by one - I likely won't be able to make any responses to you anymore as I am starting college soon, so consider this my resignation.


1 + 2.

Um no? The connection between Ren and Machina has nothing to do with how Machina is able to fight Ren, despite Ren being faster than Machina.

This is your weirdest point and has literally no proof behind this statement. The connection between them is why Machina wants to fight Ren, not how Machina fights Ren.

Reread those fights, Ren's speed was the only thing keeping him alive in those fights, and there were times were Machina's fists were a hairsbreadth away from hitting Ren.

The reason Machina is able to keep up, and Eleonore as well, is because of their superior combat experience. I believe Eleonore herself states this, when all three of the Commanders were fighting Ren in the Rea Route. Not to mention, for Machina, the pressure of his fist is a powerful weapon in and of itself and so actually connecting his fist isn't entirely necessarily for him to fight someone.

The reason the "combat experience precog" didn't last long, was because Ren was passively slowing down time, and time slowed down enough, that from Ren's perspective Eleonore and Machina basically were "frozen in time".


3.

"Briah Schrieber isnt that hard to hit. Eleonore hit him with a round of fire..."

What?

Do you know how Eleonore and Schrieber's Briahs' work?

Schrieber's fake Briah comes from his fake desire of "I don't want to be touched by anyone". His Briah will indefinitely increase his speed so that he can outpace anyone. And when he stands still, space will stretch indefinitely so that no one can touch him, even if Ren was constantly increasing his own time to move faster, he couldn't touch Schrieber standing still.

And Eleonore's Briah, like Schrieber, also has two stages. The first stage is her being able to summon fire blasts that will expand endlessly until it obliterates her enemies, and the second stage is her teleporting herself and her opponent into her cannon, making escape impossible. Her attacks have "never-missing" properties. The LLT's never missing properities are described as being, "Fast like Albedo, never missing like Rubedo, and all-killing like Nigredo"

And Schrieber states that Mercurius told him that The Three Commanders are like Rock-Paper-Scissors.

• Machina's durability can deal with Eleonore's flames and he can get in to kill her.

• Schrieber's speed makes him always outpace Machina's fists

• And Eleonore's never-missing attacks make her able to hit Schrieber

They cancel each other out - not that hitting Briah Schrieber is an easy feat to accomplish. That's not true in the slightest, the only way to attack Schrieber is to either have a never-missing move like Eleonore, or to freeze time.


4.

Um, this doesn't disprove anything I said? Both Reinhard and Mercurius agreed to Beatrice's request of not resurrecting the Commanders if they fell in battle - that's why they didn't come back.


5.

And no, that's not Merc's law. Merc's law is "To experience the unknown, dying in the arms of Marie. Absolutely any other end than that, is unacceptable". It is not, "I want Marie to kill me." And if Mercurius doesn't get this end, he just resets creation until he gets it.

And Marie doesn't kill people, she takes people into herself to hold and give love as her desire is, "I want to love and embrace all".


6.

The reason that Marie's curse didn't kill Eleonore is because, "she lacked killing intent" . Eleonore herself even stated that she couldn't imagine what Marie could have done to her if she had killing intent.

Ren doesn't have this weakness, Eleonore even states that Marie is stronger when she is used as a guillotine, that's why when Ren wakes up, it states that Marie can be a blade that can, "defeat the immortal woman".

The curse not effecting Reinhard is just a feat of resistance for Reinhard - as unlike with Eleonore, the curse wasn't nerfed in that scenario. Not much to it really.


7.

Two things,

• I wasn't ignoring context, I was just wrong, that's why I admitted that I was wrong about the point of Reinhard having resistance to Machina's Briah, because you actually showed the scans proving I was wrong. It's just like how you were wrong about what Mercurius's law was. We're all human, and we all get things wrong sometimes.

• The conversation about Machina's Briah affecting Reinhard or not has nothing to do with this debate and isn't pertinent to the point I made about you stripping context with a scene to further a point.

Making statements like, "The Commanders aren't immortal because they didn't come back after Beatrice kills them" is actively stripping the context in which Beatrice asked Mercurius and Reinhard to not revive the Commanders if they fall in battle, and they agreed to that request - explaining why they didn't resurrect.

(And speaking on why the commanders didn't resurrect, I found this sca stating that because Reinhard is separated from them in another world, they are unable to return to their state of being immediately, which explains your other scenarios, I believe)

There are other instances of you stripping context, however, like stating that Briah Schrieber isn't hard to hit because Eleonore can hit him - despite not mentioning that the only reason that Eleonore can hit Schrieber is because her Briah has "never-missing" properties, or saying Marie's curse isn't 1-A because it didn't kill Eleonore, despite Eleonore herself mentioning that it is nerfed due to Marie's lack of killing intent.


And once again, I am asking you to erase the large spaces between your blobs of text as it artificially inflates your comment which inflates the thread - also, making multiple comments does that as well, just put them all into one big comment.


So could you please stop doing that?

 

[Embracetophats]

Look dude, i aint about to bother enough to provide you with scans for everything.


You know what i have said, you know the fights in question, you know where to find them on youtube if necessary. If you doubt my claims, go look them up. I wont bother with this anymore at this point as it derails things

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

I vote Machina on this one. Clairvoyance isn't a good argument. I'm one of those who've seen the Lostbelt and Clairvoyance isn't in character. Period. He never used Clairvoyance to see into the future, only uses it as a telescope of some sort, there's too many things that he didn't see coming, like William Tell's NP, Ashwatthama's betrayal, Karna coming back and having his own emotions. And before saying that he senses Ash betraying him I say no, because he only sensed it once it's done by sensing his energy depleting from himself on a massive degree because of Ash using Shiva's Authority. Without knowing anything, he uses Mahapralaya, which takes long ass time to charge. Hours at least.

 

[Schnee_One]

Uh

Hold up

What was Arjuna's win con?

 

[Embracetophats]

I vote Machina on this one. Clairvoyance isn't a good argument. I'm one of those who've seen the Lostbelt and Clairvoyance isn't in character. Period. He never used Clairvoyance to see into the future, only uses it as a telescope of some sort, there's too many things that he didn't see coming, like William Tell's NP, Ashwatthama's betrayal, Karna coming back and having his own emotions. And before saying that he senses Ash betraying him I say no, because he only sensed it once it's done by sensing his energy depleting from himself on a massive degree because of Ash using Shiva's Authority. Without knowing anything, he uses Mahapralaya, which takes long ass time to charge. Hours at least.

How does Machina reach a man that can fly and instantly teleport?

 

[Schnee_One]

Having a literal infinite amount of times to do so.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Because Arjuna Alter won't even move when charging Mahapralaya. He was never been able to move even when Chaldea escaped him twice, he didn't move when he charged Mahapralaya. Plus he's not flying when charging it.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

What are Arjuna's incap options?

Enough layers of divine curses that he can't move. Like what the hindu gods did to karna.

Nanobot curses have nothing on divine curses so Wilhelm resisting those means nothing.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

But Zeus is a nanobot...

 

[Embracetophats]

Because Arjuna Alter won't even move when charging Mahapralaya. He was never been able to move even when Chaldea escaped him twice, he didn't move when he charged Mahapralaya. Plus he's not flying when charging it.

You do realize that be can perfectly move and fight in his animations? As well as when he fought karna at the end.


Characters arent limited to just using their super moves. By that logic, sasuke must be a motionless man that cant fight and can only use susanoo, his super move

 

[Embracetophats]

Enough layers of divine curses that he can't move. Like what the hindu gods did to karna.
Nanobot curses have nothing on divine curses so Wilhelm resisting those means nothing.


Pretty sure the red guy with the chackram also got massively cursed by Arjuna

Also, he could just do what regular arjuna does with his NP

 

[Embracetophats]

Also, Arjuna seems to also have Surya's power and an armour similar to karna.


That armour can protect against conceptual abilities

 

[Embracetophats]

Having a literal infinite amount of times to do so.

Yeah man. I will believe you when you manage to punch a drone out of the air when he is half a kilometer above you and has infinite batteries