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Intro
For a while now, there has been intense, repeated discussion on what to do about the Monitor race, Mandrakk/Thought Robot, the recent revelations from the Snyder/Tynion duo regarding DC's cosmology, the Monitor/Anti-Monitor/World Forger trio, and Perpetua. This thread will address each of those subjects and hopefully stabilize this section of the wiki.
In case anyone is wondering why this is so long, or why so much context is provided to the point of excess, it's because I deemed it necessary. This entire subject seems to rank among the most heavily debated, confused, and complex part of DC lore. Better that literally everything about it be listed and explained in a single location than for it to be told piecemeal by people debating in the comments.
Limbo, the Monitor Sphere and the Sixth dimension
First, let's look at how Limbo and Nil are primarily depicted, in Final Crisis:
Third, let's look at how Nil is depicted in the Unexpected and Justice League:
What can we conclude?
In the Sixth Dimension, Perpetua created her sons by rending them from the Overvoid. She then puts the finishing touches on the first version of the Multiverse. This is not only further evidence that the Sixth Dimension exists in the Void, it also shows that Snyder/Tynion are paying respect to Morrison's prior work.
See, there are a lot of people on the internet that believe Dax Novu split into the Monitor and Anti-Monitor due to this sca. Except the split happened after the Monitor and Anti-Monitor were "born of the Overvoid."
Here's the list of events in order: Perpetua begins making the Flaw. Perfection notices the Flaw, naming itself Monitor-Mind. Perpetua rends the Overvoid to create her sons from it and finishes shaping her Creation. The Overvoid is completely beyond time, but within the Flaw things are happening. Perpetua is sealed and the Flaw is remade into the second version (what Mar Novu calls the "current universal structure"), without her taint. The Overvoid acts to contain the Flaw, bringing forth Science Monitor Dax Novu. Novu contacts the Flaw and is split into two, leaving behind the Thought Robot, while the Flaw is scabbed over in the divine metals.
What the hell are Dax Novu and the Thought Robot? And how does the Monitor race fit in?
Dax Novu is completely unrelated to Mar Novu. The revelation of the Monitors being splinters of Mar Novu does not effect Dax Novu himself.
Tiering Perpetua and the true forms of her sons
Tearing pieces from the Overvoid and shaping them into beings should qualify as a 1-A feat given the Overvoid's status as a Tier 0 being. The true forms of the three brothers in the Sixth Dimension are also 1-A, partially due to the Sixth Dimension's nature as a realm beyond even the Monitor Sphere, but more importantly the fact that they are literal pieces of a Tier 0 being. Their true selves, by definition, as independent pieces of Monitor-Mind the Overvoid which transcends all concepts of spatial and temporal dimensions, qualify them for 1-A.
Tiering Dax Novu, Thought Robot, and the Monitor race
Combine all of the quotes about the nature of the Monitor Sphere in Section 2, with all the scans below:
1-A especially applies to Mandrakk and Thought Robot, who are two halves of Science Monitor Dax Novu, the original piece of Monitor-Mind that probed the Flaw.
Tiering the lesser-dimensional forms of the three brothers (and Barbatos)
The brothers are obviously not Tier 1 when they are functioning within Creation. Whether you feel that should be the case or not, it's true. Entering the germ worlds makes them infinitely smaller and lesser. We see this take place with the Monitors, like when they exiled Rox Ogama to the germ worlds where he could do no real harm to Creation as a whole, or when they condemned Nix Uotan to powerless, mortal existence as a "germ."
Nothing major needs to change from the way things are now, but I do want to update the justifications. Mobius is rated 2-A for matching Mar Novu, who is rated 2-A for being empowered by infinite universes. I find the latter justification dubious at best, because simply being empowered by infinite universes isn't actually proof of being able to perform 2-A feats.
What we should do is:
Final Summary / TL;DR
Lower-dimensional versions of the Brothers and Barbatos stay the same as they are now, just with updated justifications. Their true selves, as well as Dax Novu, Thought Robot, and the Monitor race, all exist beyond the Multiverse-proper as literal pieces of a Tier 0 being that transcends all concepts of spatial and temporal dimensions. They have the same beyond-dimensional nature as Monitor-Mind because they are simply independent pieces of the Overvoid moving around in it. They don't "merely exist" in a 1-A realm, the nature of their existence as living pieces of the Overvoid is by definition 1-A. Perpetua, who deserves a profile at this point, performed a 1-A feat herself and is superior to the true selves of her sons, so she is also 1-A. When it comes time to see her lower-dimensional self in conflict, as I'm sure that will happen in the next few months, a new key can be added accordingly.
For a while now, there has been intense, repeated discussion on what to do about the Monitor race, Mandrakk/Thought Robot, the recent revelations from the Snyder/Tynion duo regarding DC's cosmology, the Monitor/Anti-Monitor/World Forger trio, and Perpetua. This thread will address each of those subjects and hopefully stabilize this section of the wiki.
In case anyone is wondering why this is so long, or why so much context is provided to the point of excess, it's because I deemed it necessary. This entire subject seems to rank among the most heavily debated, confused, and complex part of DC lore. Better that literally everything about it be listed and explained in a single location than for it to be told piecemeal by people debating in the comments.
Limbo, the Monitor Sphere and the Sixth dimension
First, let's look at how Limbo and Nil are primarily depicted, in Final Crisis:
- The quote in the above scan about the "music being over" is important. The Ultima Thule travels throughout dimensions by "playing the harp", with different "tunes" corresponding to different universes/planes of existence. The music being over means Limbo is where the Multiverse stops, which is further supported below.
- Nil is the "blank", the "gone", where "form and meaning surrender to the Overvoid". It is a realm broadcasted to by Captain Adam after he realizes there are no dualities. It is "beyond reality". It was also literally created in the Overvoid, around the Thought Robot, which was floating in the Overvoid. This was stated again by the book of Limbo: Mandrakk's sepulchre, and therefore the rest of Nil, exist in the Void outside the Multiverse
- Scale, space, and time are different, more profound, more meaningful, in Nil. This is linked to the above quote about meaning surrendering to the Overvoid. Everything in Nil is the thoughts of the Overvoid. "Time" only entered Nil after contact with stories. I use quotations because Nil is an archetypal realm, and "time" is the clockwork pattern in the sky, not a literal physics-based temporal dimension as is the case within the multiverse proper. As shown above, those ended at Limbo.
Third, let's look at how Nil is depicted in the Unexpected and Justice League:
- Nil is explicitly not in the Multiverse. It was only reached by Hawkman and his allies because a unique Nth Metal isotope was infused with Ultramenstruum and resonated with the same substance in Nil, and it "ruptured reality" to get there. The only characters actually able to reach Nil on their own were Mandrakk, and Bad Samarita, a multiverse-level being granted his powers by the World Forge. In case anyone has forgotten, the World Forge is pure possibility, Element X, the substance used to shatter the entire Source Wall. As much as I agree that this was shoddy writing, it's incorrect to use it as proof of a retcon for Nil, due to the context within the story.
- The Justice League only got to Nil because the World Forger took them there. Again, not a retcon for Nil, given his nature as a being born directly of the Overvoid, which is shown in Section 3 below.
- The Monitor Sphere exists at the edge of things. Again, matches how Nil has always been depicted. If you're confused about what Mar Novu means by "current universal structure", remember that we learned there have been two iterations of the DCU. The first, made by Perpetua, and the second, when her creation was remade upon her sealing, without her taint.
- Assuming this is true and not falsified, it confirms what already seemed to be the case when the 5th Dimension was described as imagination and energy flowing through the multiverse. The Sixth Dimension is clearly not referring to literal six spatiotemporal dimensions because space and time don't even apply to it. The multiverse being described as 4D (which would be a major outlier descriptor anyways if taken literally), is also referring to these "governing layers", not the specific number of spatiotemporal dimensions. The message popped up on VSB recently, and I found its origin in this thread on spacebattles, where the user offered to give their login info to an admin to prove it was true, although no further updates have been given.
- The Sixth Dimension is a realm beyond the imagination of almost all living things. This ties into how the Source Wall is the limit even to thought, and how the Sixth Dimension could only be reached once the Source Wall was broken.
- In Multiversity the holes in the multiverse caused by Nix Uotan's rubix cube were depicted as more and more panels forming, revealing more of the white page beneath
- In Superman Beyond, the Monitor-Mind's erasing of the Monitors involved the literal panels being eaten away to reveal the white underneath.
What can we conclude?
- 1) Limbo is consistently stated, including on the current map in use, to be the last outpost of DC's actual multiverse (as in, space and time). It likely qualifies as a true void, as it has no proper time or space like the rest of the multiverse does.
- 2) The Monitor Sphere is an archetypal realm of thought that was made out of the Overvoid, as it was made around the Thought Robot which was floating in the Void.
- 3) The Sixth Dimension is a layer of existence beyond the former two, existing outside the Source Wall completely. It is outside Creation and is where Creation was made.
In the Sixth Dimension, Perpetua created her sons by rending them from the Overvoid. She then puts the finishing touches on the first version of the Multiverse. This is not only further evidence that the Sixth Dimension exists in the Void, it also shows that Snyder/Tynion are paying respect to Morrison's prior work.
See, there are a lot of people on the internet that believe Dax Novu split into the Monitor and Anti-Monitor due to this sca. Except the split happened after the Monitor and Anti-Monitor were "born of the Overvoid."
Here's the list of events in order: Perpetua begins making the Flaw. Perfection notices the Flaw, naming itself Monitor-Mind. Perpetua rends the Overvoid to create her sons from it and finishes shaping her Creation. The Overvoid is completely beyond time, but within the Flaw things are happening. Perpetua is sealed and the Flaw is remade into the second version (what Mar Novu calls the "current universal structure"), without her taint. The Overvoid acts to contain the Flaw, bringing forth Science Monitor Dax Novu. Novu contacts the Flaw and is split into two, leaving behind the Thought Robot, while the Flaw is scabbed over in the divine metals.
What the hell are Dax Novu and the Thought Robot? And how does the Monitor race fit in?
Dax Novu is completely unrelated to Mar Novu. The revelation of the Monitors being splinters of Mar Novu does not effect Dax Novu himself.
- He was the original probe used by Monitor-Mind to investigate the Flaw. Why does he look like Mar Novu? Because he was designed by Monitor-Mind to blend i, and Mar Novu had already been rent from the Overvoid itself, so Monitor-Mind presumably designed Dax Novu's appearance and name after him. Dax Novu's first encounter with the Flaw was this scene from COIE. He was NEVER directly connected to Mar Novu or Mobius. Monitor-Mind's feeling of contamination from the contact, as well its curiosity toward the stories in the Flaw, split the probe into what we later saw as Dax Novu/Mandrakk, and the Thought Robot.
- This is why the later Monitor race had the legend that Dax Novu left behind the Thought Robot as his final gift, and why Mandrakk and Thought Robot are complete opposites: Thought Robot, made of pure thought, is a conceptual being representing the "good" side of every dichotomy. While Mandrakk, the opposite to Thought Robot, is a conceptual being representing the "bad" side of every dichotomy. Remember, before naming itself, Monitor-Mind was simply non-dual Perfection, and the original Dax Novu was a literal piece of that Perfection before he split into Mandrakk and Thought Robot.
- We've known for a while that the Monitors were thoughts of the Monitor-Mind, and their story named them as descendants of the original immense, unknowable Monitor
- I had to actually take a second, close look at Multiversity to notice this: Grant Morrison did not actually say outright that the Monitor race were splinters of Dax Novu. The quote "divided, deranged" comes directly after the panels telling of the probe's division into the Thought Robot and the Dax Novu we later see, who was corrupted into Mandrakk while exploring the Multiverse.
- Nix Uotan is called the "son of the Monitor Novu" by Highfather. The narration box in the "comic book" also calls Nix Uotan, after his race's passing, the "sole son of Novu".
- At the end of Final Crisis, Monitor-Mind erased all Monitors aside from Nix Uota, and Mar Novu would later reform in his entirety. For some reason, there's a misconception among many that Monitors can't exist in the Overvoid. That's completely false, they are literal pieces of the Overvoid. The Monitor-Mind actively erased them.
Tiering Perpetua and the true forms of her sons
Tearing pieces from the Overvoid and shaping them into beings should qualify as a 1-A feat given the Overvoid's status as a Tier 0 being. The true forms of the three brothers in the Sixth Dimension are also 1-A, partially due to the Sixth Dimension's nature as a realm beyond even the Monitor Sphere, but more importantly the fact that they are literal pieces of a Tier 0 being. Their true selves, by definition, as independent pieces of Monitor-Mind the Overvoid which transcends all concepts of spatial and temporal dimensions, qualify them for 1-A.
Tiering Dax Novu, Thought Robot, and the Monitor race
Combine all of the quotes about the nature of the Monitor Sphere in Section 2, with all the scans below:
- Zillo Valla calls the Monitors the Masters of the Overvoid (obvious flowery language aside, this is yet another reference to the Monitor Sphere being made of the Overvoid)
- They can alter both their scale and pitch at will, explaining why they can become infinitely smaller and less powerful and go from being comparable in size to the Orrery to living as "germs" within the Multiverse
1-A especially applies to Mandrakk and Thought Robot, who are two halves of Science Monitor Dax Novu, the original piece of Monitor-Mind that probed the Flaw.
Tiering the lesser-dimensional forms of the three brothers (and Barbatos)
The brothers are obviously not Tier 1 when they are functioning within Creation. Whether you feel that should be the case or not, it's true. Entering the germ worlds makes them infinitely smaller and lesser. We see this take place with the Monitors, like when they exiled Rox Ogama to the germ worlds where he could do no real harm to Creation as a whole, or when they condemned Nix Uotan to powerless, mortal existence as a "germ."
Nothing major needs to change from the way things are now, but I do want to update the justifications. Mobius is rated 2-A for matching Mar Novu, who is rated 2-A for being empowered by infinite universes. I find the latter justification dubious at best, because simply being empowered by infinite universes isn't actually proof of being able to perform 2-A feats.
What we should do is:
- Use the fact that, before any positive matter universes were destroyed and absorbed, Base Mobius released an attack that struck all worlds in all times, reducing infinite universes to just five, in a finite amount of time, as the first to be destroyed was Earth-Three at the beginning of the story. And in case anyone is a bit rusty on the story and going, "but what about that cannon and stuff?" The cannon was built because Mar Novu's dying act was to make a netherverse from his energy, absorbing and protecting the remaining universes, while his tuning forks partially merged them, fortifying them. The original antimatter wave was all Mobius' doing.
- Mar Novu perfectly matched Base Mobius in power, which will be his new justification for being 2-A. Him being linked to infinite positive matter universes can stay as supporting evidence. The Monitor's profile also needs many touch-ups which are minor enough to handle here (his name, age, intelligence stamina, etc.)
- Scale Alpheus' lower-dimensional key to his brothers. Barbatos remains the same as he is now due to killing that version of Alpheus.
Final Summary / TL;DR
Lower-dimensional versions of the Brothers and Barbatos stay the same as they are now, just with updated justifications. Their true selves, as well as Dax Novu, Thought Robot, and the Monitor race, all exist beyond the Multiverse-proper as literal pieces of a Tier 0 being that transcends all concepts of spatial and temporal dimensions. They have the same beyond-dimensional nature as Monitor-Mind because they are simply independent pieces of the Overvoid moving around in it. They don't "merely exist" in a 1-A realm, the nature of their existence as living pieces of the Overvoid is by definition 1-A. Perpetua, who deserves a profile at this point, performed a 1-A feat herself and is superior to the true selves of her sons, so she is also 1-A. When it comes time to see her lower-dimensional self in conflict, as I'm sure that will happen in the next few months, a new key can be added accordingly.
