Conceptually Chaotic: A Sonic the hedgehog crt

[Starsprite53]

"A mysterious island that floats in the skies.
But in reality, it's in fact a fantasy/dream world created by Eggman!"
Why "dream world" here is taken in a literal meaning? This has nothing to do with dream worlds in shuffle.It's just a floating island (which can be archieved with very basic hax)a "dream" or "phantasy world" can refer to a real physical location that feels enchanting or out of the ordinary, and considering it's filled with eggman pictures and statues you know what it means(and how the cast is unfamiliar with dream worlds as a concept in shuffle)

 

[Omegabronic]

Was Sleeping Egg Zone created by the Chaos Emeralds, though? The scan just says it was created by Eggman.

in the same game where it is said that the emeralds are the "Super Substance of Dreams" the word is used again to describe a place Eggman created, and he only ever did something even close to that while he had an emerald with him, the implications are very clear

I'm also not entirely sure if Super Sonic being awoken from everyone's dreams is super relevant; I'd like to see some more context surrounding that scene if you don't mind.

i mean, if him being powered by the dreams made him go super, then how wouldn't that be a clear indication that they are connected with chaos energy?

The latter claim also has another issue; Chaos energy is what creates and sustains dreams

but at the same time you're trying to claim that dreams can serve as a substitute for chaos energy/the Chaos Emeralds.

no it is what Dreams are made of, so using dreams to power them is the same as using chaos energy as dreams are made with it

It'd imply that dreams are, in some fashion or another, comparable to chaos energy when that doesn't line up with what else is being claimed.

dreams are not comparable, Chaos energy is simply the substance which dreams are made of

To put it another way, it would be like if I baked a cake (dreams) using flour (chaos energy), and then used the cake itself as a substitute for the flour; It doesn't make any sense.

in this case it would be like you eating the cake instead of flour, either way you are eating flour, just in a different shape

"A mysterious island that floats in the skies.
But in reality, it's in fact a fantasy/dream world created by Eggman!"
Why "dream world" here is taken in a literal meaning? This has nothing to do with dream worlds in shuffle. It's just a floating island (which can be archieved with very basic hax)a "dream" or "phantasy world" can refer to a real physical location that feels enchanting or out of the ordinary, and considering it's filled with eggman pictures and statues you know what it means(and how the cast is unfamiliar with dream worlds as a concept in shuffle)

it is specifically said to be another dimension, and that it is infinite as well, so no, it isn't just a floating island

 

[Starsprite53]

it is specifically said to be another dimension, and that it is infinite as well, so no, it isn't just a floating island

Can you read the rest please:
I think that the interesting keyword here is "夢幻の世界" (Mugen no sekai).
Fun fact, just by the sound, you could think of an "infinite world", but the kanji here refers to something fantastical, illusory, or a dream. So anything in this context might be a valid translation of it.
Also no, it's not another dimension, that's just where aqua planet zone is

 

[Omegabronic]

Can you read the rest please:
I think that the interesting keyword here is "夢幻の世界" (Mugen no sekai).
Fun fact, just by the sound, you could think of an "infinite world", but the kanji here refers to something fantastical, illusory, or a dream. So anything in this context might be a valid translation of it.
Also no, it's not another dimension, that's just where aqua planet zone is

"so anything in this context might be a valid translation of it." you should read instead, with the context we later get with what dreamworlds are in Sonic Shuffle makes it pretty clear on what it is

edit: Besides, the name being "Sleeping Egg Zone" kind of implies a literal dream you have when you sleep

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

in the same game where it is said that the emeralds are the "Super Substance of Dreams" the word is used again to describe a place Eggman created, and he only ever did something even close to that while he had an emerald with him, the implications are very clear

Okay, so nothing states it was created by a Chaos Emerald. Cool. That means it isn't usable. Like, you do know that the word "dream" showing up twice in one game doesn't mean it has identical context behind it both times, right?

dreams are not comparable, Chaos energy is simply the substance which dreams are made of

If you're claiming that dreams can replicate the same feats as Chaos energy, then yes, it would imply that they're comparable.

in this case it would be like you eating the cake instead of flour, either way you are eating flour, just in a different shape

That.... still doesn't make sense. What you're trying to claim is that dreams can do the same things that chaos energy can, which would be akin to claiming that a cake has the same properties as flour (it doesn't, if you're curious).

 

[Starsprite53]

"so anything in this context might be a valid translation of it." you should read instead, with the context we later get with what dreamworlds are in Sonic Shuffle makes it pretty clear on what it is

The kanji itself commonly used to refer dream/fantasy, if we're going to use "infinite" meaning, then we have to sacrifice the dream part, pick your poison, you can't use two different meanings at the same tlme

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The kanji itself commonly used to refer dream/fantasy, if we're going to use "infinite" meaning, then we have to sacrifice the dream part, pick your poison, you can't use two different meanings at the same tlme

"Can't have your cake and eat it too"

 

[Omegabronic]

Okay, so nothing states it was created by a Chaos Emerald. Cool. That means it isn't usable. Like, you do know that the word "dream" showing up twice in one game doesn't mean it has identical context behind it both times, right?

it very much implies considering that the specific word is used twice, do you know what "implication" means?

If you're claiming that dreams can replicate the same feats as Chaos energy, then yes, it would imply that they're comparable.

you shouldn't ignore the other part of the message, Dreams are made of chaos energy, so of course someone can use the chaos energy that there is dreams to do chaos energy stuff, the word "comparable" would be indicating that one is superior to the other in power, which isn't what is being argued

That.... still doesn't make sense. What you're trying to claim is that dreams can do the same things that chaos energy can, which would be akin to claiming that a cake has the same properties as flour (it doesn't, if you're curious).

the dreams are made with chaos energy, the calories you would get with Flour you would still get with the Cake, the flour is still in the Cake after all, it is just in a different shape

 

[Omegabronic]

The kanji itself commonly used to refer dream/fantasy, if we're going to use "infinite" meaning, then we have to sacrifice the dream part

the kanji can be refering to both at the same time so no we wouldn't

pick your poison, you can't use two different meanings at the same tlme

this is how the japanese launguage works, we very much can

 

[Starsprite53]

the kanji can be refering to both at the same time so no we wouldn't

The kanji sure have many meanings, but we only pick one depending on the context, or else every planet is also a star by your logic

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

it very much implies considering that the specific word is used twice, do you know what "implication" means?

"Specific"? Dream as a word is extremely variable depending on the context; it can refer to literal dreams, or something highly desirable (eg; something being "dreamy" or of one's dreams), or akin to fiction/an illusion, or any number of things. You are assuming that two disconnected uses of the word "dream" mean the exact same thing despite there being no indication of that.

you shouldn't ignore the other part of the message, Dreams are made of chaos energy, so of course someone can use the chaos energy that there is dreams to do chaos energy stuff, the word "comparable" would be indicating that one is superior to the other in power, which isn't what is being argued

the dreams are made with chaos energy, the calories you would get with Flour you would still get with the Cake, the flour is still in the Cake after all, it is just in a different shape

At this point I'm not even sure I'm following the line of logic here.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I find myself disagreeing with this. The statement about super-substances appears more poetic than literal as others have indicated. It's in the same vain as "power only in your wildest dreams" kind of statements that make something sound grandiose. The next sentence is a literal one where it talks about them containing infinite power. This appears more like it's establishing the revered nature of the Chaos Emeralds than making a literal statement of their relation to dreams.

It's also important to consider that Sonic Chaos was released in 1993 and that Sonic Shuffle was released in 2000. The listed connections here seem more incidental or from similar abilities rather than intention to link the two together. Both Maginaryworld and Chaos Energy involve making desires into a reality of some kind, but the ideas behind them are different. Maginaryworld's actualization of dreams is based more on Jungian ideas of the unconscious mind while the Chaos Emeralds manifest conscious desires. It's not exactly 1:1, even if they pull from a similar concept. If there was an intention to make a clear relationship between Chaos Energy and dreams, you'd think there'd be a more direct statement interlinking the two, especially after the concept of dreams was clearly defined in Sonic Shuffle.

I am not inherently against the idea, but I believe there needs to be a more robust connection between the two for this to work. It seems very forced as is. If there are any more recent statements to reinforce other than a manual from 30 years ago, that would significantly help.

 

[Omegabronic]

The kanji sure have many meanings, but we only pick one depending on the context

says who?

or else every planet is also a star by your logic

good strawman of my argument, no we wouldn't, because in this case it can only mean one or the other and we would be able to see the object being referred to, in this case both meanings do not contradict each other and in context with what was said earlier about Dreams makes perfect sense to make the implied connection

also even if the infinite part is ignored....well it doesn't change the main point, that being that it is a Dream world

"Specific"? Dream as a word is extremely variable depending on the context; it can refer to literal dreams

Which the Dream world Eggman seems to indicate since the term "Dream world" is the same one used in Shuffle

, or something highly desirable (eg; something being "dreamy" or of one's dreams)

which is another thing connecting to shuffle since it is one of the meanings it uses for dreams as well

, or akin to fiction/an illusion, or any number of things. You are assuming that two disconnected uses of the word "dream" mean the exact same thing despite there being no indication of that.

the term "Dream world" and the fact that they were both extremely close in release date, alongside all the other evidence connecting the emeralds with dreams see indicate

At this point I'm not even sure I'm following the line of logic here.

think of it like this, when your doctor says for you to drink more liquid, if you either drink water or a juice you will be drinking liquid, one is just the other with more stuff in it

It's also important to consider that Sonic Chaos was released in 1993 and that Sonic Shuffle was released in 2000. The listed connections here seem more incidental or from similar abilities rather than intention to link the two together.

they are not that far apart from one another

Both Maginaryworld and Chaos Energy involve making desires into a reality of some kind, but the ideas behind them are different. Maginaryworld's actualization of dreams is based more on Jungian ideas of the unconscious mind while the Chaos Emeralds manifest conscious desires.

.......source for this?

It's not exactly 1:1, even if they pull from a similar concept. If there was an intention to make a clear relationship between Chaos Energy and dreams, you'd think there'd be a more direct statement interlinking the two, especially after the concept of dreams was clearly defined in Sonic Shuffle.

I am not inherently against the idea, but I believe there needs to be a more robust connection between the two for this to work. It seems very forced as is. If there are any more recent statements to reinforce other than a manual from 30 years ago, that would significantly help.

so all you want is a recent statement connecting the emeralds with Dreams? because i may have something like that from Sonic Frontiers

 

[Omegabronic]

At this point i say for all of us to wait for @ShakeResounding response, being the one who made the Blog, i feel like his opinion on this would be very necessary

 

[Fezzih_007]

they are not that far apart from one another

7 years are not that far apart?

 

[ShakeResounding]

Me creating the blog doesn't give me some higher jurisdiction regarding my opinion on this thread or how we treat the inherent variation of kanji and their meaning.

Get Executor N0 or some staff or something, I'm at work.

 

[ShakeResounding]

7 years are not that far apart?

In an ongoing franchise of 32 years? Ehhhh.

 

[Starsprite53]

Me creating the blog doesn't give me some higher jurisdiction regarding my opinion on this thread or how we treat the inherent variation of kanji and their meaning.

Get Executor N0 or some staff or something, I'm at work.

Good Luck ovo

 

[Omegabronic]

7 years are not that far apart?

Not by much, as shake said

Me creating the blog doesn't give me some higher jurisdiction regarding my opinion on this thread or how we treat the inherent variation of kanji and their meaning.

Get Executor N0 or some staff or something, I'm at work.

I understand, sorry to bother you


In this case we wait for staff to avoid back and forth

 

[JJSliderman]

It does make sense from one perspective that Chaos Emeralds created a dream world in Chaos, as their purpose is literally transfiguring thoughts into reality, and they even have been planned for use in constructing new worlds, as in Sonic Rush stated by the Eggmen.

Even if Chaos energy isn’t connected to the stuff with Maginaryworld, Shuffle cast should still arguably get some resistance to concept destruction if dreams are accepted as concepts, and any entity that can destroy all of Maginaryworld should still get that ability, along with characters who can fight those bosses getting a resistancd (I.e. the super hedgehogs, Solaris, Time Eater(?))

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Greetings, everyone. A revelation has been recently found that changes very much on what we knew about Chaos Energy, and our good old friend @ShakeResounding made a blog detailing it very well here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...tion_for_the_Chaos_Emeralds_(Main_Continuity)

The blog is not long at all, but I will summarize. Dreams in the Sonic Series fit the bill of type 1 Concepts, existing independently of the reality they govern while also shaping all of said reality, and Chaos Energy/Chaos Emeralds are said to be "the super-substances of dreams". (Credit to @Fireld for finding these ancient scans). AKA the Chaos Emeralds (or rather their energy) are what dreams are made of, thus all the Dreams aspects only exist because of Chaos Energy. And since Void and Illumina are both also aspects of Dreams (the latter being the Goddess of Dreams), Chaos Energy would be given all the of their abilities as well (as they are made of Dreams, and thus made of Chaos Energy)
So the proposal for Chaos Energy is:

• Conceptual Manipulation & Dream Manipulation (Conceptual Creation & Conceptual Destruction; Type 1, Independent Universal Concept. The Chaos Emeralds are referred to as the super-substances of dreams, with the power of dreams being able to awaken Super Sonic through the Precioustone [a gem that makes dreams come true]. With Dr.Eggman being able to create an infinite Dream World when he was in possession of a Chaos Emerald. Dreams are varied in scope, ranging from things that people desire to the goals people chase and down to the very emotions people experience both good and evil, with all dreams ultimately converging on Fourth Dimensional Space [a realm which in itself is Illumina's dream] within Maginaryworld)
• Higher-Dimensional Existence (4D; Maginary world is shown to have entire Universes in it, all of which are contained in a realm called 4th dimensional space, which on top of the 3 usual spatial dimensions [seeing as how the 3D cast can move up down left and right] has an additional 4th one [hence the name "4th dimensional space"]. With the dimension seeing the dream worlds as nothing more than images on a screen. The Chaos Emeralds are shown to be able to, via physical flight, go to the special stages which all are parallel universes)

To add more lore consistency to this, Chaos Energy is constantly described as being made from the Wishes, Emotions and Thoughts of the user, which is very similar, if not equal, to what Dreams are said to be in Sonic Shuffle. Combine this with the Precioustone being able to enable Sonic's transformation into Super Sonic, and you have a scary amount of consistency.

So, let us discuss.

Staff Agree:

Staff Disagree:

Staff Neutral:

I have a few more things to add if you don't mind

 

[HenshinIntervention]

In the Sonic Riders Bradygames official guide, the Master Emerald is called a Precious stone

I forgot what source this was but I believe it was a manual or guidebook for one of the Mega/Gems Collections
The Chaos Emeralds are called Precious Stones

 

[JJSliderman]

Precious with a lowercase p, likely meaning valuable

 

[Fezzih_007]

In the Sonic Riders Bradygames official guide, the Master Emerald is called a Precious stone

I forgot what source this was but I believe it was a manual or guidebook for one of the Mega/Gems Collections
The Chaos Emeralds are called Precious Stones

Precious as the meaning of the word, being valuable.
Not that they are actually the same thing as the Precioustone.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

In the Sonic Riders Bradygames official guide, the Master Emerald is called a Precious stone

I forgot what source this was but I believe it was a manual or guidebook for one of the Mega/Gems Collections
The Chaos Emeralds are called Precious Stones

come on dude

It's obviously using the word "precious" in the context of being highly valuable. Besides, isn't the Precioustone in Shuffle always spelled without a space?

 

[HenshinIntervention]

come on dude

It's obviously using the word "precious" in the context of being highly valuable. Besides, isn't the Precioustone in Shuffle always spelled without a space?

Thought it would be fine to point out anyway

 

[JJSliderman]

I don’t know what the consensus on the concept stuff is but I do think it makes sense that the dream world in Chaos is a literal dream world (Sleeping Egg Zone) and that it was made by the Chaos Emeralds (since this game came after Eggman began incorporating the Emeralds into his schemes and the Emeralds have or were planned to be used to create alternate worlds before)

 

[ShakeResounding]

Since Dreams are already acknowledged as a Type 1 Concept in Void's profile, and even have him with Conceptual Manipulation for being a threat to them, we should instead focus on the other characters who can destroy them as JJ mentioned above. Mainly the accepted cosmology wipers, Solaris and Time Eater (and maybe The End as well), similar to how Lavos has Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation for a very similar reason (it's so similar I don't even think this is can be considered a whataboutism).

 

[JJSliderman]

Hey, since Solaris got his cosmology destroying powers from the Emeralds maybe they could have concept destruction after all.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Hey, since Solaris got his cosmology destroying powers from the Emeralds maybe they could have concept destruction after all.

That's actually what I was gonna get at lol, yes. I'm creating a new blog that explains why Dreams are a Type 1 concept in Sonic and drops the Chaos Emerald connection since I can't change the title of my blog

 

[Omegabronic]

That's actually what I was gonna get at lol, yes. I'm creating a new blog that explains why Dreams are a Type 1 concept in Sonic and drops the Chaos Emerald connection since I can't change the title of my blog

Don't discount it yet tho

 

[Robo432343]

With the dimension seeing the dream worlds as nothing more than images on a screen.

just saiyan
we don't use R>F for HDE anymore coz of the new standards but ig this can be supporting evidence

 

[Omegabronic]

Bump

 

[Omegabronic]

after much discussion with some friends like @ShakeResounding it was decided that the topic of connecting chaos energy directly with dreams will be dropped for the time being, in the future this may be brought up again, but for now we shall focus on the more simple stuff

 

[ShakeResounding]

Considering no staff showed up in time for the initial premise, we should get some this time

 

[Omegabronic]

Considering no staff showed up in time for the initial premise, we should get some this time

i literally already called all of the ones from the verse page on their walls already, we have to wait now

 

[Remus1998]

Would this grant resistance to CM! and Dream Manipulation for the Core 4?

 

[Omegabronic]

Would this grant resistance to CM! and Dream Manipulation for the Core 4?

yeah, for super forms

 

[Remus1998]

yeah, for super forms

Fair enough

 

[JJSliderman]

But the base forms also fought Void