Conceptually Chaotic: A Sonic the hedgehog crt

[omegabronic]

Spoiler: Old premise

Greetings, everyone. A revelation has been recently found that changes very much on what we knew about Chaos Energy, and our good old friend @ShakeResounding made a blog detailing it very well here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...tion_for_the_Chaos_Emeralds_(Main_Continuity)

The blog is not long at all, but I will summarize. Dreams in the Sonic Series fit the bill of type 1 Concepts, existing independently of the reality they govern while also shaping all of said reality, and Chaos Energy/Chaos Emeralds are said to be "the super-substances of dreams". (Credit to @Fireld for finding these ancient scans). AKA the Chaos Emeralds (or rather their energy) are what dreams are made of, thus all the Dreams aspects only exist because of Chaos Energy. And since Void and Illumina are both also aspects of Dreams (the latter being the Goddess of Dreams), Chaos Energy would be given all the of their abilities as well (as they are made of Dreams, and thus made of Chaos Energy)
So the proposal for Chaos Energy is:

• Conceptual Manipulation & Dream Manipulation (Conceptual Creation & Conceptual Destruction; Type 1, Independent Universal Concept. The Chaos Emeralds are referred to as the super-substances of dreams, with the power of dreams being able to awaken Super Sonic through the Precioustone [a gem that makes dreams come true]. With Dr.Eggman being able to create an infinite Dream World when he was in possession of a Chaos Emerald. Dreams are varied in scope, ranging from things that people desire to the goals people chase and down to the very emotions people experience both good and evil, with all dreams ultimately converging on Fourth Dimensional Space [a realm which in itself is Illumina's dream] within Maginaryworld)
• Higher-Dimensional Existence (4D; Maginary world is shown to have entire Universes in it, all of which are contained in a realm called 4th dimensional space, which on top of the 3 usual spatial dimensions [seeing as how the 3D cast can move up down left and right] has an additional 4th one [hence the name "4th dimensional space"]. With the dimension seeing the dream worlds as nothing more than images on a screen. The Chaos Emeralds are shown to be able to, via physical flight, go to the special stages which all are parallel universes)

To add more lore consistency to this, Chaos Energy is constantly described as being made from the Wishes, Emotions and Thoughts of the user, which is very similar, if not equal, to what Dreams are said to be in Sonic Shuffle. Combine this with the Precioustone being able to enable Sonic's transformation into Super Sonic, and you have a scary amount of consistency.

Connected to all of the above, given the conceptual nature Dreams anyone who would be capable of destroying Maginary World would get Dream and Conceptual Manipulation by default.

EDIT: The original premise of this thread has been abandoned, which was connecting Chaos Emeralds to dreams via being called their super-substances. Instead, as Dreams in Sonic are already accepted as a Type 1 concept, ShakeResounding decided to make a blog that can be inserted into the profiles while also having different arguments for the Solaris and a few others to be granted Conceptual Manipulation while dropping the connection between Chaos Emeralds and Dreams, while this may come up again in the future, we shall focus on the simpler stuff first. Blog explaining in detail

Greetings, everyone. Our good old friend @ShakeResounding made a blog detailing the nature of Dreams

Dreams in the Sonic Series fit the bill of type 1 Concepts, existing independently of the reality they govern while also shaping all of said reality

and as such, characters who would destroy all of the cosmology, such as the Time Eater, Solaris and The End should all receive the following:
Solaris:

• Dream Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation (Conceptual Destruction; Type 1, Independent Universal Concept. Dr. Eggman stated Solaris' plan was to swallow all timelines and destroy the very meaning of time itself. This would include Maginaryworld, a realm which houses dreams within Fourth Dimensional Space that contains all dreams from the multiverse [a space which in itself is Illumina's dream])

Time Eater:

• Dream Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation (Conceptual Destruction; Type 1, Independent Universal Concept. Dr. Eggman stated to have used the Time Eater's Existing Erasure powers to undo all of his previous defeats and to have erased all of reality. This would include Maginaryworld, a realm which houses dreams within Fourth Dimensional Space that contains all dreams from the multiverse [a space which in itself is Illumina's dream])

The End:

• Dream Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation (Conceptual Destruction; Type 1, Independent Universal Concept. Stated that it would break the walls between dimensions and "consume all", with Sonic being positive that they needed to save "everyone everywhere". This would include Maginaryworld, a realm which houses dreams within Fourth Dimensional Space that contains all dreams from the multiverse [a space which in itself is Illumina's dream])

As a bonus, Chaos Energy gains it as well since it was what empowered solaris to do what he was going to do, so the proposal for chaos energy is:

• Dream Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation (Conceptual Destruction; Type 1, Independent Universal Concept. The Chaos Emeralds allowed Mephiles and Iblis to fuse back into Solaris, who immediately became a threat that would swallow all timelines and destroy the very meaning of time that additionally encompasses Maginaryworld and all the dreams contained within Fourth Dimensional Space)

So, let us discuss.

Staff Agree: @Maverick_Zero_X @Elizhaa

Staff Disagree:

Staff Neutral:

 

[Alexander]

i am just gonna wait for people to say something

 

[JJSliderman]

Skimming through it, I suppose it makes sense. Dreams are a fundamental aspect of shaping reality, dreams can destroy other dreams, a 4D space is in itself a dream, and Chaos Emeralds being referred to as super-substances of dreams would make them transcendent of yet also connected to dreams, and allowed Eggman to potentially create his own dream world.

Uhhhh…yeah, I agree.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

A revelation has been recently found that changes very much on what we knew about Chaos Energy, and our good old friend @ShakeResounding made a blog detailing it very well here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...tion_for_the_Chaos_Emeralds_(Main_Continuity)

Common Shake W, I agree

 

[Eseseso]

Looks good, but is it CM Type 1, 2, or 3?

 

[Fezzih_007]

Type 1

 

[Alexander]

Looks good, but is it CM Type 1, 2, or 3?

type 1

 

[ShakeResounding]

Looks good, but is it CM Type 1, 2, or 3?

Found the guy who didn't read ANYTHING lol

Considering I made the blog... I agree

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I've only ever played Adventure 2 and Generations, so I have nothing to comment on the matter, but it'd be much preferred if the translations contained the original untranslated text for comparison.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I've only ever played Adventure 2 and Generations, so I have nothing to comment on the matter, but it'd be much preferred if the translations contained the original untranslated text for comparison.

It does, all the links in the blog have the JP subs straight from the game while the translations within the post are from Windii (whose translations have been deemed reliable here for a few years now)

 

[Eseseso]

Found the guy who didn't read ANYTHING lol

Why you so mean, I got Sonic 4-D causality resistance.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

h all dreams ultimately converging on Fourth Dimensional Space [a realm which in itself is Illumina's dream]

Is this fourth dimension 4D space + time or 4D 4 space dimensions?

Because for HDE you need 4 spatial dimensions.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Higher-D Existence isn't part of my blog, that's on Omega

 

[omegabronic]

Is this fourth dimension 4D space + time or 4D 4 space dimensions?

Because for HDE you need 4 spatial dimensions.

the dreams themselves are universal space times, and with the space between universes having another spatial dimension by default, they qualify, also, the place is literally called 4th dimensional space, aka a 4th spatial dimension to the regular 3 the chars went through the dream worlds

 

[Eseseso]

Assuming this goes through, nice job to Shake and Omega on getting Super Sonic 4D Conceptual Manipulation!

2-A D&D characters still clap, though.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

the dreams themselves are universal space times, and with the space between universes having another spatial dimension by default, they qualify, also, the place is literally called 4th dimensional space, aka a 4th spatial dimension to the regular 3 the chars went through the dream worlds

Being a spacetime doesn't matter, because as I said, only 4 spatial dimensions give HDE.

If it is a fourth dimension it has 4 axes, then it can only have 3 spatial and 1 time axes, or 4 spatial axes.

You are saying that it is a space-time and it still has an extra spatial axis that would give 5D and not 4D.

 

[omegabronic]

If it is a fourth dimension it has 4 axes, then it can only have 3 spatial and 1 time axes, or 3 spatial axes.

not really because it is specified that it is the 4th dimensional SPACE, so it is very clearly a spatial dimension

You are saying that it is a space-time and it still has an extra spatial axis that would give 5D and not 4D.

.....i am a little confused, could you specify what you mean?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I agree

 

[ShakeResounding]

2-A D&D characters still clap, though.

You act as if D&D characters don't slap 98% of 2-As, c'mon now

Thanks for the congrats, now let's stop derailing kek

 

[Phsccarvalho]

4th dimensional SPACE

Hadn't seen that, so I guess it's fine.

 

[ShakeResounding]

@omegabronic You'll have to make a separate description for Higher-Dimensional Existence since it wasn't even part of my original proposal. If more people agree, I'll tweak it, add it to the blog, and credit you.

 

[omegabronic]

@omegabronic You'll have to make a separate description for Higher-Dimensional Existence since it wasn't even part of my original proposal. If more people agree, I'll tweak it, add it to the blog, and credit you.

ok

 

[omegabronic]

@omegabronic You'll have to make a separate description for Higher-Dimensional Existence since it wasn't even part of my original proposal. If more people agree, I'll tweak it, add it to the blog, and credit you.

you already added the 4th dimensional space part, so i just made small changes to that part to give emphasis, i already added to the description in the OP, if you think it needs tweaks be free do do the changes you see as necessary
(...with it being an entire Multiverse with 4 spatial dimensions [Seen as it has a 4th dimensional space in it])

 

[ShakeResounding]

If I was aiming for Higher-Dimensional Existence, I would've given it a proper description of its own to best encapsulate why it qualifies Time to face the music, Omega

 

[omegabronic]

If I was aiming for Higher-Dimensional Existence, I would've given it a proper description of its own to best encapsulate why it qualifies. Time to face the music, Omega

i will try to do better next time, but really, it is so simple that i didn't saw a need for an paragraph of text for it in the description, i supposed i should have talked to you first to add it to the blog before hand, so sorry for that as well

 

[ShakeResounding]

No need for apologies at all, bud. You're fine lol.

Now, let's try and contact some staff for this.

 

[omegabronic]

No need for apologies at all, bud. You're fine lol.

Now, let's try and contact some staff for this.

i already sent a message to all evaluation rights staff listed in the verse page, and a few more also

 

[JED]

Agree

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

"super-substance of dreams" isn't referring to how they fundamentally make up dreams...... It's referring to how it's a "super-substance" (beyond ordinary substance ig but too vague to be anything) with "of dreams" talking about how it's desired or something people can only dream of not a literal thing which makes up dreams on a fundamental level.

Greetings, everyone. A revelation has been recently found that changes very much on what we knew about Chaos Energy, and our good old friend @ShakeResounding made a blog detailing it very well here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...tion_for_the_Chaos_Emeralds_(Main_Continuity)

The blog is not long at all, but I will summarize. Dreams in the Sonic Series fit the bill of type 1 Concepts, existing independently of the reality they govern while also shaping all of said reality, and Chaos Energy/Chaos Emeralds are said to be "the super-substances of dreams". (Credit to @Fireld for finding these ancient scans). AKA the Chaos Emeralds (or rather their energy) are what dreams are made of, thus all the Dreams aspects only exist because of Chaos Energy. And since Void and Illumina are both also aspects of Dreams (the latter being the Goddess of Dreams), Chaos Energy would be given all the of their abilities as well (as they are made of Dreams, and thus made of Chaos Energy)
So the proposal for Chaos Energy is:

• Conceptual Manipulation & Dream Manipulation (Conceptual Creation & Conceptual Destruction; Type 1, Independent Universal Concept. The Chaos Emeralds are referred to as the super-substances of dreams, with the power of dreams being able to awaken Super Sonic through the Precioustone [a gem that makes dreams come true]. Dreams are varied in scope, ranging from things that people desire to the goals people chase and down to the very emotions people experience both good and evil, with all dreams ultimately converging on Fourth Dimensional Space [a realm which in itself is Illumina's dream] within Maginaryworld)

Kinda baffles me on how people can take such flowery language at face value and see no problem with it. Most of the dream related stuff (with illumina stuff being legit but having no connection to chaos energy) just seems awfully metaphorical.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Agree. But provide evidence that 4'th dimensional space isn't just a name. We use the name fallacy on this wiki often. Would prolly be best to explain that 4th dimensional space views the dreams as mere projections on a screen?

 

[LaserPrecision]

"super-substance of dreams" isn't referring to how they fundamentally make up dreams...... It's referring to how it's a "super-substance" (beyond ordinary substance ig but too vague to be anything) with "of dreams" talking about how it's desired or something people can only dream of not a literal thing which makes up dreams on a fundamental level.

"The Super-Substance of dreams" implies that dreams consistent of super-substances. There's further proof of this assuming you read it all. Such as Dreams have the energy to power Sonic into Super Form. Something he needs Chaos Energy for.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

"The Super-Substance of dreams" implies that dreams consistent of super-substances. There's further proof of this assuming you read it all. Such as Dreams have the energy to power Sonic into Super Form. Something he needs Chaos Energy for.

Again this part is still metaphorical. Everyone's dreams (hope and desires) awakening super sonic is just empowerment and not even remotely connected to the super-substance part anyways. The "super-substance of dreams" is not implying that it is making up dreams but it is a super-substance that can only be dreamed of or desired like something that can only be considered an "ideal". This is not meant to convey that it's a fundamental part of dreams but a way to hype up the power of them.

I think I'm done here and got my point across fine lest I get replied to by like 4 different sonic supporters.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Again this part is still metaphorical. Everyone's dreams (hope and desires) awakening super sonic is just empowerment and not even remotely connected to the super-substance part anyways. The "super-substance of dreams" is not implying that it is making up dreams but it is a super-substance that can only be dreamed of or desired like something that can only be considered an "ideal". This is not meant to convey that it's a fundamental part of dreams but a way to hype up the power of them.

I think I'm done here and got my point across fine lest I get replied to by like 4 different sonic supporters.

Fair enough I suppose. I think I get what you mean. But I would like to note that in the game this description comes from, Eggman uses an Emerald to create a dream world

 

[omegabronic]

Agree. But provide evidence that 4'th dimensional space isn't just a name. We use the name fallacy on this wiki often. Would prolly be best to explain that 4th dimensional space views the dreams as mere projections on a screen?

Added that

 

[Fezzih_007]

I kinda agree with BestMGQScalerEver here, i don't think the statement is to be taken literally, seems like a floral lenguage.
Even the superform things seems kinda iffy.

 

[omegabronic]

"super-substance of dreams" isn't referring to how they fundamentally make up dreams...... It's referring to how it's a "super-substance" (beyond ordinary substance ig but too vague to be anything) with "of dreams" talking about how it's desired or something people can only dream of not a literal thing which makes up dreams on a fundamental level.

Kinda baffles me on how people can take such flowery language at face value and see no problem with it. Most of the dream related stuff (with illumina stuff being legit but having no connection to chaos energy) just seems awfully metaphorical.

this could be one interpretation sure, but considering that dreams can fuel Sonic's Super form, which requires Chaos Energy, have many MANY paralels between what it is and what dreams are described as in MW and that Eggman when he had a Chaos Emerald was able to create an entire Dreamworld, it makes it really clear that they were not metaphorical there, but literal given all the connections the chaos emerads/chaos energy has with dreams all through out the series

 

[omegabronic]

I kinda agree with BestMGQScalerEver here, i don't think the statement is to be taken literally, seems like a floral lenguage.
Even the superform things seems kinda iffy.

could you explain why the super form being achieved with dreams would be iffy? seens pretty clear to me, so i want yo know the contentions with it

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"super-substance of dreams" isn't referring to how they fundamentally make up dreams...... It's referring to how it's a "super-substance" (beyond ordinary substance ig but too vague to be anything) with "of dreams" talking about how it's desired or something people can only dream of not a literal thing which makes up dreams on a fundamental level.

Kinda baffles me on how people can take such flowery language at face value and see no problem with it. Most of the dream related stuff (with illumina stuff being legit but having no connection to chaos energy) just seems awfully metaphorical.

Heavily agree with this. Something being the "(x) of dreams" does not inherently mean that thing is tied to literal dreams; It's a common turn of phrase meant to show that something is very important, powerful, desired, etc (I can give some specific examples if needed, but here's one).

Overall I'm gonna have to disagree with the OP. I suppose I'll look at the basis of type 1 CM later.

 

[omegabronic]

Heavily agree with this. Something being the "(x) of dreams" does not inherently mean that thing is tied to literal dreams; It's a common turn of phrase meant to show that something is very important, powerful, desired, etc (I can give some specific examples if needed, but here's one).

Overall I'm gonna have to disagree with the OP. I suppose I'll look at the basis of type 1 CM later.

well that could be an interpretation, but the numerous connections that chaos energy has with dreams, with it being shown to be able to even create dream worlds in the game where "Super substance of dreams" is stated, and dreams being able to directly form a super form, something chaos energy exclusive, seens to very clearly imply that it isn't just metaphorical

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

well that could be an interpretation, but the numerous connections that chaos energy has with dreams, with it being shown to be able to even create dream worlds in the game where "Super substance of dreams" is stated, and dreams being able to directly form a super form, something chaos energy exclusive, seens to very clearly imply that it isn't just metaphorical

Was Sleeping Egg Zone created by the Chaos Emeralds, though? The scan just says it was created by Eggman. I'm also not entirely sure if Super Sonic being awoken from everyone's dreams is super relevant; I'd like to see some more context surrounding that scene if you don't mind.

The latter claim also has another issue; Chaos energy is what creates and sustains dreams, but at the same time you're trying to claim that dreams can serve as a substitute for chaos energy/the Chaos Emeralds. It'd imply that dreams are, in some fashion or another, comparable to chaos energy when that doesn't line up with what else is being claimed. To put it another way, it would be like if I baked a cake (dreams) using flour (chaos energy), and then used the cake itself as a substitute for the flour; It doesn't make any sense.