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It's only slightly higher than 7.5
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Changing the Versus Thread One-Shot Gap
- Thread starter Agnaa
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I mean, if you want to do so, I honestly don't mind.
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@DontTalkDT Any other thoughts on this matter?
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@Agnaa has unfortunately been missing from this community since October 6. I hope that nothing bad has happened to him.
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Has this been finished yet? It would need to still be in discussion now that the baseline for 10-B has changed.
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The most obvious thing to change is the one shot gap. The value of upper 10-B/ lower 10-A has changed so the one shot gap should've been changed from 7.5 to 5.
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Too small
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That's what the original one shot gap followed and it's better than the former over 2000X gap calc.
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The problem is that even a regular human who takes a punch from someone punching 5 times harder than them is capable of surviving it assuming it isn't a pressure point area
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Still, it's way too small of a gap
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We could try the gap between upper 10B and lower 9-B
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Propellus argues it is too small
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maybe we could use destroying someones head/ punching into their chest to destroy their heart, guaranteed instant death unless they have immortality, idk if something like this has been brought up yet
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3000-3900 J. That's an AP difference of around 50-65x.
Incalculable. Best alternative you have is a 1600 J punch to the chest from Mike Tyson which will still result in massive damage to the ribs and internal organs. Ordinary dudes would prolly be dead from this. Even boxers have a hard time fighting through this shit.
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Another heads up, person A doesn't need to kill person B for it to be labeled as a oneshot; as knocking someone unconscious with a single punch still counts. And that's also usually via sweet spotting rather than a major AP gap.
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@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0
I apologise for being a repeated bother, but we likely need your help here.
I apologise for being a repeated bother, but we likely need your help here.
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Personally, I don't mind the current gap.
Fixing the number based on real life human punching just doesn't work well, because our stat system is too simplified to handle it. With large numbers the inaccuracies don't matter as much, but with human level small numbers it's all over the place.
The problem the OP raises doesn't originate from a problem in the oneshot gap, but from a problem with human durability not working like that. Human durability just isn't equal to human AP. So human punching human that it doesn't K.O. isn't a 7.5x gap between AP and Dura to begin with. The dura could just as well be exactly the same as the AP.
So yeah, as far as we want to have such a number we can set it more or less however we like. Fiction won't adhere to it anyway. 7.5x is decently large without being ridiculous, so it's fine in my book.
Fixing the number based on real life human punching just doesn't work well, because our stat system is too simplified to handle it. With large numbers the inaccuracies don't matter as much, but with human level small numbers it's all over the place.
The problem the OP raises doesn't originate from a problem in the oneshot gap, but from a problem with human durability not working like that. Human durability just isn't equal to human AP. So human punching human that it doesn't K.O. isn't a 7.5x gap between AP and Dura to begin with. The dura could just as well be exactly the same as the AP.
So yeah, as far as we want to have such a number we can set it more or less however we like. Fiction won't adhere to it anyway. 7.5x is decently large without being ridiculous, so it's fine in my book.
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That is a fine point; though 7.5 might be seen as an oddly specific number and the reasons for it would be lowered to being a 5x nowadays. Since that is the new gap between human level and Street level.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Bump.
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DontTalkDT thinks the gap is fine even though it's based on an outdated basis that would inherently lower it to 5x. But if 5x is good enough, I supposed I am mixer about that.
Agnaa
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While this seems good at first glance, it highlights a bunch of other weirdness. For one, it would mean that characters with durability 7.5x higher than another character's AP wouldn't be unaffected by attacks (as most adults are hurt somewhat by ordinary punches, but don't instadie to punches with a 7.5x higher registered joule value not applied to a weak spot). For another thing, it'd mean that we're indexing human durability wrong; one point where the issue in the OP is salient is with 9-Cs matched against 10-Bs in threads (where they're currently treated as one-shotting and being unaffected by blows), but if we were to edit 10-Bs to actually have 9-C dura I guess that'd fix it.
And one minor contention I'd make, is that since most characters have humanoid forms, I wouldn't really expect these issues to go away at higher tiers. These issues seem to stem from relative differences, not absolute ones.
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First of all, if the gap is still based on difference between a Street level and a baseline Average human, then 7.5x would be downgraded to 5x. And I don't personally mind a 5x punch being enough to knock someone unconscious, but even then. The argument would still only work if the attack sweet spotted them given that punching someone's fist or foot still wouldn't knock out the target even if it was a gap as small as 5x.
And the other issue is a durability gap required to be invulnerable to character B's attacks. Which is also too case by case heavy given surface area and penetration/slashing/piercing both being things. Durability is also non-linear given that characters with rubbery bodies great greater resistance against excess force while being even more susceptible to sharp and pointy weapons. Likewise, characters with rocklike and/or metallic bodies have durability feats in the opposite direction.
I suppose a oneshot requirement doesn't need too big of a gap given the loose definition of it and other factors to take into account. But an invulnerability gap should definitely be pretty big.
And the other issue is a durability gap required to be invulnerable to character B's attacks. Which is also too case by case heavy given surface area and penetration/slashing/piercing both being things. Durability is also non-linear given that characters with rubbery bodies great greater resistance against excess force while being even more susceptible to sharp and pointy weapons. Likewise, characters with rocklike and/or metallic bodies have durability feats in the opposite direction.
I suppose a oneshot requirement doesn't need too big of a gap given the loose definition of it and other factors to take into account. But an invulnerability gap should definitely be pretty big.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Bump.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Bump.
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The oneshot gap being 5x via Peak Human vs Normal Human gap is alright. It might be worded as something like.
"The gap between Character A's attack potency being 5x stronger than character B's durability is the gap required for a one-shot. It is a assume that they comparable in size and that punching is the standard method of attacking. And it is assumed that one solid punch to vulnerable spot such as the head or chest will at the very least knock the opponent unconscious and possible kill them. But the gap might be higher or lower depending on factors such as size/surface area difference, the use of sharp weapons, or other powers abilities such as regeneration."
And beyond that, I think an invulnerability gap is undecided but agreed it should generally be bigger number than 5x.
"The gap between Character A's attack potency being 5x stronger than character B's durability is the gap required for a one-shot. It is a assume that they comparable in size and that punching is the standard method of attacking. And it is assumed that one solid punch to vulnerable spot such as the head or chest will at the very least knock the opponent unconscious and possible kill them. But the gap might be higher or lower depending on factors such as size/surface area difference, the use of sharp weapons, or other powers abilities such as regeneration."
And beyond that, I think an invulnerability gap is undecided but agreed it should generally be bigger number than 5x.
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