The problem with Plot Manipulation.

[GreatIskandar14045]

now that this thread is concluded can i ask this
does someone with plot manip need proof of interacting with acausality type 4 now?

Which brings us to the Type 4 Acausality proposal, where the answer is no. That would assume that causality by default is above plot. That should likewise require evidence. Without evidence, you can not default to either position.

Naw.

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody willing to apply what has been accepted here now?

@DontTalkDT

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Before this get closed I would like to thank everyone that participated in this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, we need to apply the accepted results first, and I think that only DontTalk's suggested changes have been accepted so far.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Again, we need to apply the accepted results first, and I think that only DontTalk's suggested changes have been accepted so far.

Both have been accepted, I have been keeping track

Accepted my plot manipulation changes @Deagonx @DarkDragonMedeus @KLOL506 @Catzlaflame @Mr._Bambu @Firestorm808

Accepted DT's Proposal @DarkDragonMedeus @Qawsedf234 @DontTalkDT @Catzlaflame @Firestorm808 @Mr._Bambu

We Also had some people that agreed to the goal of the thread, including @DontTalkDT and @Theglassman12 with no one rejecting the proposal. So yeah I think both should be sufficient to implement, no?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine then.

Is some staff member here able and willing to properly handle it?

 

[DontTalkDT]

I have created the Metaphysical Aspects page for now.
The "Policies and Explanations Pages" template at the top still needs to be updated to include this page. I will leave that to someone who already knows how that works.
The page could also use an imagine, but I have no idea what would work well.

 

[Ss3micah]

@Ss3micah the NEP concept stuff I’ve always seen it as just a form of resistance more than just it being uninteractable there. When it comes to the actual Nature of NEP, I’d argue that the CM stuff would need some proof that they can interact with something like NEP when by its very nature it doesn’t exist.

To give some more of my opinions on stuff:

Concept manip (and other metaphyiscal aspects) can affect NEP users unless the have the corresponding type of lacking the aspect. Why? Because if they have the aspect they can be affected by the ability and it's a reasonably default to assume they have it, as everything usually has it.

@Theglassman12
I don’t about that in all honesty glass.
Like I understand your point but as DT points out and as already clarified by the revision thread done on NEP as a whole.

The principle of aspects was brought in to say that unless added verification and context is brought to the table, then NEP (while it does grant you a nonexistent nature and a lot of defense) it doesn’t make you immune/resistant to mind, soul, concept, info, plot manipulation UNLESS you have the required aspects. Those things by default are assume to be apart of the NEP being unless context is brought in to say it lacks the aspect.

Ergo
A character with Concept Hax with no feats of affecting an NEP being in their own verse should be able to concept Hax an NEP being in a debate UNLESS the NEP lacks the conceptual aspect

If NEP nature type 2 doesn't have aspect type 5 (for plot) then they only have nonduality aspect type 1 and not relating to plot. (Unless they have more for completely independent reasons)
As such they would not get extra protections, no.

And as DT points out here as well
The same rings true for NEP Nature 2 as well
If you don’t lack the corresponding aspect then it exists for you and if it exists for you then you can be affected by it

For your ND questions the whole point of Nonduality is you’re beyond dual concepts and aren’t bound by whatever dual natures exist, so being able to no sell Concept hax is a no brainer since that’s how it work. The info hax stuff I’d argue wouldn’t fare much better unless it would have some evidence of functioning outside of a duality or outside of reality as well.

A have a few gripes with this
Not issues just minor gripes.

First off…
Did dual systems / ND as a whole automatically include Concepts? And if so does that mean that anyone with any variety of ND has concept resistance?

Like for example…
A being who has ND for stuff like:
Light and Darkness
Hot and Cold
Sky and Ground
Solid and Liquid
Day and Night

Would you just say that just because these dual systems are dual concepts and they are beyond these things then they can no sell conceptual erase Or alteration? There used to be a time when concepts was not an assumed dual system and that in verse context or verification needed to be provided rather than just assume…. I have ND Type 1/2 so concept Hax automatically can’t harm me.

And finally, in regards to Info or Plot. Even if what you say about duality being dual concepts is true. As far as I understand, Concept, Info and Plot Hax are all deemed incomparable to each other. I.E. resisting concept doesn’t mean you can resist info and Regen and vice Versa. So even if we say that ND should for some reason give you auto resistance to Concept Hax… why would that apply to info and plot especially when both have not been established to be dualities in the verse and even more especially when we don’t consider concepts to be equivalent nor comparable to Info and Plot?

For Acausality Type 5, given the "beyond feats" passage

I would argue that if we don't know that causality > the metaphysical aspect in question in the verse's hierarchy, being unaffected by change from the corresponding manipulation would be beyond the feats. (Unless they have separate feats of it, of course)

I’m kinda confused by this line so please correct me if I’m wrong.
Are you saying that for Acausal 5 if we don’t know that causality is greater/above a metaphysical aspect… let’s say concepts.
Then conceptual manipulation would work on the Acausal 5 character?

I thought Acausal 5 meant that you become immune to everything and nothing can a affect you and since your uninteractable and unchangeable then things like concept, info and plot Hax would not be able to affect you either.



Also for anyone wondering
I got permission from Antvasima

 

[Catzlaflame]

The "Policies and Explanations Pages" template at the top still needs to be updated to include this page. I will leave that to someone who already knows how that works.

I have done so

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Both have been accepted, I have been keeping track

Accepted my plot manipulation changes @Deagonx @DarkDragonMedeus @KLOL506 @Catzlaflame @Mr._Bambu @Firestorm808

Accepted DT's Proposal @DarkDragonMedeus @Qawsedf234 @DontTalkDT @Catzlaflame @Firestorm808 @Mr._Bambu

We Also had some people that agreed to the goal of the thread, including @DontTalkDT and @Theglassman12 with no one rejecting the proposal. So yeah I think both should be sufficient to implement, no?

I have done so

@Catzlaflame Would you be willing to handle this to?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ss3micah That’s not what I’ve been told in terms of NEP but if that’s how NEP works then sure.

Dualities by default tackle conceptual things that mirror each other. So yes you would have some immunities to those abilities at a conceptual level. That’s just basic common sense.

 

[Catzlaflame]

@Catzlaflame Would you be willing to handle this to?

I'm honestly in a bit of a rush right now, and in a few minutes, I'll have to be on mobile for an extended period of time, but I'll try proposing a draft when I can get back on PC.

 

[Antvasima]

I have created the Metaphysical Aspects page for now.
The "Policies and Explanations Pages" template at the top still needs to be updated to include this page. I will leave that to someone who already knows how that works.
The page could also use an imagine, but I have no idea what would work well.

I have done so

Thank you very much for helping out.

I fixed the alphabetic order in the template page.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/T...ages?type=revision&diff=8400028&oldid=8399406

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm honestly in a bit of a rush right now, and in a few minutes, I'll have to be on mobile for an extended period of time, but I'll try proposing a draft when I can get back on PC.

Progress?

 

[Catzlaflame]

Conclusion

I propose that Plot manipulation Not only require proof of what it can do, but also what it can affect, some examples include Information, concepts, timelines.
This should also be mentioned in the plot manipulation ability description to prevent NLFs.

Here is the conclusion of the thread^^^ for a reminder

To put this into practice, I think this would be a good addition:

Regarding No-Limits Fallacies, users cannot simply be assumed to bring out any imaginable effect. They are assumed to be limited in both applications and scale to what they demonstrated or can be reasoned to be capable of based of reliable statements. For instance, a character whose plot manipulation can affect concepts, would need to also demonstrate the ability to affect information for them to utilize both in a combat setting. See here for more information regarding this topic.

Is this alright ?
@Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems about right.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I also think that seems fine.

 

[Catzlaflame]

I have made the addition to the Plot Manip page. I believe we can close this thread now.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Thanks to everyone that has participated in this thread.

 

[Duedate8898]

Closing