Changing the Versus Thread One-Shot Gap

[Mr. Bambu]

I can't immediately think of a suitable compromise, no, outside of maybe "5x is sufficient for a KO (possibly requiring a specific shot to the head or chest) and 7.5x is an instant kill".

 

[Propellus]

My point still stands as we don't really need to change the current one-shot mechanic

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is certainly simpler to just let the gap remain as it is, but should we write a note in the wiki page where it is currently listed that it is no longer a value based on some real world fact, but rather on convenience?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think a gap for instant kill can ever truly be made for a standard assumption, but a simple knock out is a base for One-shot. 7.5x is based on an outdated gap and thus contradicts the "Gap between Peak Human and Normal Human" statement and is simply 5x. As for why I don't think insta-kill can be calculated; I don't think any specific gap can really be used to automatically bypass certain levels of regeneration; and even lesser levels of regeneration + having a lot more endurance as opposed to durability often widens the gap too.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally also think that 5x seems more reasonable, but that doesn't change the deadlock here, and it might force us to disqualify and remove too many currently accepted and listed matchups, which doesn't seem worth the effort involved.

 

[Propellus]

I don't think a gap for instant kill can ever truly be made for a standard assumption, but a simple knock out is a base for One-shot. 7.5x is based on an outdated gap and thus contradicts the "Gap between Peak Human and Normal Human" statement and is simply 5x. As for why I don't think insta-kill can be calculated; I don't think any specific gap can really be used to automatically bypass certain levels of regeneration; and even lesser levels of regeneration + having a lot more endurance as opposed to durability often widens the gap too.

The thing is with gaps like this, it has be around a number that isn't too high or too low. It needs to be around the average. And also, I don't really see the issue with the current 7.5x gap as it keeps matches more balanced that way

 

[Agnaa]

Because I think we should care more about doing things accurately, than we should about keeping matches "balanced" (which I don't think is actually true; changing the gap would just change how many matches are possible, and how much stat amps matter, neither of which are significant aspects of balance).

 

[DMUA]

The gap should be changed to 5x, and be said to only be a "one-shot" that can knock someone out by hitting their head/chest: 2 (DarkDragonMedeus, Therefir)

I'll shift my stance to this, since the street level/human level gap has just changed with time

I also hold Agnaa's sentiment, a fight between two characters where one is 3x stronger already just isn't that fair of a fight unless speed is unequalized and they have an edge there, or their arsenal lets them work around it (by which case depending on how good it is the AP gap might just not matter)

 

[Flashlight237]

Put me in as "Keep it at 7.5x." We're not military experiment workers testing to see how much pain people can endure.

 

[DMUA]

We're not military experiment workers testing to see how much pain people can endure.

... Yeah, but we at least want to keep consistent with ourselves, and the gap between 10-B and 9-C's baseline is 5x instead of 7.5 like it was before, I don't think I understand the logic here

 

[KLOL506]

This should've just ended at the gap being made to be 5x. I really don't see what the fuss is about. The gap was originally based on the difference between 10-B and 9-C, which has since changed. So the AP one-shot gap should've changed as well.

What constitutes as a one-shot could've been settled in another brand-new thread.

 

[KLOL506]

Say it's only a "one-shot" that can prevent characters without superhuman stamina from fighting further: 1 (KLOL506)

I think we need to make it clear that this was merely me talking about what constitutes as a one-shot, it had nothing to do with the multiplier itself.

That being said...

The gap should be changed to 5x, and be said to only be a "one-shot" that can knock someone out by hitting their head/chest: 2 (DarkDragonMedeus, Therefir)

This is what I agree with at the moment, with the 5x gap at least, how one deems a feat a one-shot can be left up for another thread.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, keeping 7.5x as the gap would be the same thing as refusing to downgrade someone's stats from 9-B to 9-C based on a 6000 Joule calculation despite the baseline for 9-B being raised from 5000 Joules to 15000 Joules a while back.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

maybe just make the one shot gap the difference between normal human level and wall level.

That would be a 250x jump.

 

[Agnaa]

@Greatsage13th As this is a staff discussion thread, I've deleted your post. I'll restore it if you can establish (preferably on my wall or DMs) that a staff member gave you permission to comment.

 

[TheRustyOne]

The 5x gap should be perfectly fine. What DarkDragonMedeus wrote there sounds good to me.

I don't have any doubts that a 5x gap would take out a large amount of people in one shot, especially if it hit a vital area.

This is the same reasoning we were using the 7.5x gap for, there should be no reason not to make it 5x now that the average human level is higher. The 7.5x gap was made for the gap between human level and street level. But now that gap is smaller at 5x, which means the 7.5x gap is completely arbitrary now.

Our reasoning for the 7.5x gap on the one shot page is wrong right now.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody update the staff vote tally here please? Please keep in mind that calc group members have a vote each for this thread as it relates to calculation standards.

 

[Agnaa]

I already have been updating my last post with the tally.

 

[Antvasima]

Increase the gap, or say it's only a "one-shot" that can knock someone out by hitting their head: 1 (Agnaa)

Increase the gap: 1 (Colonel_Krukov)

Say it's only a "one-shot" that can knock someone out by hitting their head: 0 (Legacy option, in case anyone switches back to this)

Say it's only a "one-shot" that can prevent characters without superhuman stamina from fighting further: 0 (Legacy option, in case anyone switches back to this)

The gap should remain at 7.5x: 4 (Propellus, DontTalkDT, Mr._Bambu, Flashlight237)

The gap should be changed to 5x, and be said to only be a "one-shot" that can knock someone out by hitting their head/chest: 5 (DarkDragonMedeus, Therefir, DMUA, KLOL506, TheRustyOne)

---

On the topic of invulnerability working different from one-shots...

The gap needed for invulnerability should be increased: 3 (Agnaa, DarkDragonMedeus, Therefir)

Overall:

• People seem against raising the value for one-shots.
• People are divided on whether to change the one-shot value to 5x, or leave it at 7.5x.
• People either seem divided on, or have neglected to mention, whether this "one-shot" value should involve killing the opponent, or just knocking them out.
• Those who have commented on invulnerability as a separate issue to one-shots seem to think it should require a higher value.

And I feel like I should add that just changing one-shots to involving knocking the opponent out wouldn't solve the issue of previous matches becoming outdated. I believe that a lot of them operated under the assumption that one-shots were deaths (meaning that revival/regeneration/healing came into play, but high stamina didn't), and that a 7.5x AP gap effectively gave invulnerability.

Thank you for helping out.

As I mentioned above, I personally think that changing the border to 5x seems more reasonable here.

However, it seems like we do not have sufficient consensus for a change here, which is unfortunate.

Please elaborate regarding why you want to increase the gap, Agnaa.

 

[Agnaa]

Because, in real life, even the strongest adult humans cannot instakill ordinary adult humans through punches to the torso. So basing our one-shot gap off of the idea that they can is incorrect. And that's what we currently interpret that one-shot gap to mean; a character that's 7.5x stronger is currently treated in matches as instantly killing the other character, requiring resurrection/regeneration to come back from.

Saying the one-shot gap is knocking out for vital spots is less bad, but even then runs into major issues. Since people of the same strength can knock each other out with blows to the head. So the gap for this would be... 1x.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. That seems to make sense.

So have you figured out any workable solutions then?

 

[Agnaa]

I don't know of a precise, logically-derived value, I'd just set it at something decently higher, like 20x.

Or toss out the knockout/kill idea, and just have the "one-shot" value (be it 5x or 7.5x) be for "a blow which, dealt to the torso, a character would need superhuman stamina to fight through", but that does kinda feel like it's getting away from the idea of actually being a one-shot.

 

[Therefir]

Any well placed punch can knock out a person on your same ballpark, but I think making matches between characters who have more than a 5x difference is straight stompish and unfair for the weaker character.

7.5x doesn't really have any supporting pillar because the difference between normal humans and peak humans is now 5x, I think we all agree that a peak human would easily stomp a normal human even if their speed and combat skills were equalized.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Punching through a skull is 838.5 Joules, going by our own page. Compared to Baseline Human level at 60 Joules, that's a gap of 13.975x.

Not certain if that would be a good idea, but this kind of puts punching someone through the head at 14x. (14x for the sake of rounding it up)

Which would be a one shot kill. Not saying it should be used, just thought I'd mention it.

I'm still fine with using the 5x value and the rewrite above. Without any extra abilities to change it, I don't see how someone can defeat another who is 5x stronger/durable than themselves. Maybe we could change it from a one shot gap to a stomp gap?

IDK, I'm just spit-balling here. All I can confidently say is that the current 7.5x gap has zero reason to be used right now, as I've explained above.

Our reason for the 7.5x gap has now changed to a 5x gap, which should be fine to use unless someone gets a better solution or something.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @DMUA @Damage3245 @TheRustyOne @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @KLOL506 @M3X_2.0 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings @Agnaa @Dalesean027 @DemiiPowa @Flashlight237

It is good if you try to reach an agreement here.

 

[Agnaa]

I feel like I've done all I can in that regard. I just summarized my points, and no-one's really responded to it.

Rusty gave a good suggestion for 14x being a one-shot, but then went on to say that it should be changed to 5x anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Flashlight237]

I'm sticking firm with 7.5x. I'm sorry, but tradition is tradition.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't have any input for this topic. I'll stay neutral on it.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I'm sticking firm with 7.5x. I'm sorry, but tradition is tradition.

This statement lacks any logical reasoning.

Our reason for the 7.5x gap has now changed to a 5x gap, which should be fine to use unless someone gets a better solution or something.

Flashlight, you're basically telling us to spread false information. The 7.5x gap has zero reason to exist right now, our current one-shot page is straight up wrong.

The gap of 7.5x is based on the difference between a street level character and a human level character, with the former being commonly accepted as capable of one-shotting the latter.

The current gap is now 5x, which means the page has to be changed regardless.

I'm fine with using the rewording by DarkDragonMedeus since it's a simple and easy change. This really shouldn't be taking long.

If you don't like it, then you shouldn't have let the baseline human level get upgraded. This is a consequence of that upgrade.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This statement lacks any logical reasoning.


Flashlight, you're basically telling us to spread false information. The 7.5x gap has zero reason to exist right now, our current one-shot page is straight up wrong.

The gap of 7.5x is based on the difference between a street level character and a human level character, with the former being commonly accepted as capable of one-shotting the latter.

The current gap is now 5x, which means the page has to be changed regardless.

I'm fine with using the rewording by DarkDragonMedeus since it's a simple and easy change. This really shouldn't be taking long.

If you don't like it, then you shouldn't have let the baseline human level get upgraded. This is a consequence of that upgrade.

Our entire assumption was arbitrary, it just worked out nicely and we needed a number that sounded reasonable. A peak human would not inherently knock out a normal human in one punch (though they definitely could, I imagine it relies more on body part struck alongside that strength). You may choose to stick to that arbitrary definition of a one-shot and it would be essentially as valid as sticking with the existent one for sake of tradition or simplicity or whatever else you may call it.

 

[Jasonsith]

I am really neutral on it.

And if there is no agreement on restating anything, then the only way to go is staying status quo

 

[TheRustyOne]

Snip

You're ignoring the fact our page needs to be changed no matter what, as the current wording is 100% wrong.

I'm not a fan with spreading false information, I expect you as a staff member to at least feel the same.

I did make a point for a 14x gap based on our own calculations. But this would be for the strength needed to punch someone through the skull.

Which would be a one-shot kill without the opponent having any special abilities.

Note: I do agree that trying to find a knock out blows is indeed arbitrary, but that this isn't an excuse to spread lies. Right now the 7.5x gap was lowered to a 5x gap. This is factual and not up for debate right now.

 

[Antvasima]

Rusty seems to make sense to me above.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You're ignoring the fact our page needs to be changed no matter what, as the current wording is 100% wrong.

I'm not a fan with spreading false information, I expect you as a staff member to at least feel the same.

I did make a point for a 14x gap based on our own calculations. But this would be for the strength needed to punch someone through the skull.

Which would be a one-shot kill without the opponent having any special abilities.

Note: I do agree that trying to find a knock out blows is indeed arbitrary, but that this isn't an excuse to spread lies. Right now the 7.5x gap was lowered to a 5x gap. This is factual and not up for debate right now.

Yeah but that's not really the meat of the issue lol. The thread is about deciding where our one-shot goes, I imagine the text will be changed appropriately when we come to a conclusion.

You're accusing me (and others) of being a liar when that's not even the discussion, calm down a smidge, yeah?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, let's try to be polite and friendly here.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I'm not here to try and spread any bad blood, I'm rather calm. Of course I doubt you'll believe me, so I'll apologies for offending you.

However, you've made no suggestion on how the text should be changed. So I don't see how I'm suppose to just assume otherwise.

I'd like to point out that the "tradition" isn't a 7.5x gap, the tradition is the idea that a baseline Streel level character can one shot a baseline Human level character. That gap is no long 7.5x and is now 5x, as such our page has to be updated in accordance to this change.

There is no reason for a 7.5x gap. The 7.5x gap was based on an actual reason, which has now been changed.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm not here to try and spread any bad blood, I'm rather calm. Of course I doubt you'll believe me, so I'll apologies for offending you.

However, you've made no suggestion on how the text should be changed. So I don't see how I'm suppose to just assume otherwise.

I'd like to point out that the "tradition" isn't a 7.5x gap, the tradition is the idea that a baseline Streel level character can one shot a baseline Human level character. That gap is no long 7.5x and is now 5x, as such our page has to be updated in accordance to this change.

There is no reason for a 7.5x gap. The 7.5x gap was based on an actual reason, which has now been changed.

The tradition would be either, but 7.5x would be closer to normal than 5x. I'd say that the status quo is more reasonably 7.5x than 5x- the value is more core to the matter than the reason for it.

 

[Propellus]

There is no reason for a 7.5x gap. The 7.5x gap was based on an actual reason, which has now been changed.

You can easily say that the original gap was based off the lower end of how much joules the average human can output for them to be one-shot by peak humans. A 13x gap is definitely pushing it as you don't necessarily need to arbitrarily punch through someone else's skull in order to defeat them (Which i doubt that's even humanly possible to achieve, but i may be wrong by this remark). The point is, it has to be through a way of incapacitation. Then again, it doesn't really need to changed

 

[Agnaa]

You can easily say that the original gap was based off the lower end of how much joules the average human can output for them to be one-shot by peak humans. A 13x gap is definitely pushing it as you don't necessarily need to arbitrarily punch through someone else's skull in order to defeat them (Which i doubt that's even humanly possible to achieve, but i may be wrong by this remark). The point is, it has to be through a way of incapacitation. Then again, it doesn't really need to changed

As I pointed out earlier, you can KO people of equal strength with one blow if it lands in the right spot, so simply being able to defeat/incapacitate someone in one blow is not sufficient.

Why is no-one acknowledging that? We've been given a number for an instant kill (13x), and people are still arguing over whether one-shot should be changed to incap at 5x or 7.5x when that can be done at 1x. What the hell is everyone doing?

Why are y'all sticking so hard to the logic of "Peak humans one-shot normal humans" when that's something we literally made up on a dime a few years ago since we just needed to pull a number from somewhere, and which I've demonstrated to not be true in any meaningful way?