Tier 10-B to 9-B Gap Revision

[Finiznot]

As I sent a message to @Antvasima about this, I'm pretty sure this needs it real bad, why? Because Tier 10-A: Athletic, is so low, that pretty much even skinny inexperienced boxers can reach if not surpass it, while achieving 9-C is not quite the most easy tier to reach to in Real Life, 10-A has such an irrevant gap from it, that I question if the joule number should end at 500, and not 300, which is something that many guys can reach to. I remember one time when I asked someone to calculate this feat, he said he was over 70,000 joules, though I was recently told this is not physically possible for a human to reach, but still this feat is a lot to reach to and many feats like L's kick on Light in the Death Note Manga and Anime, that it baffles me that people in Real Life who commonly do this are on the same tier as a Grizzly Bear (Without Kinetic energy.)

Don't believe me? Take a look at this, apparently we can somewhat be on the same level as a Lion and a Grizzly. What the heck?!? Come on folks, and by Viewer Warning To These Violent Youtube Video Links, sure it is possible to survive these animals who are more than 50 times our strength, but dang do we get roughed up when they maul us and most of time, like MOST of the time, we don't survive. Granted if we had supersonic combative, running and reaction speed we might could beat them in a fight, but the point of the matter is, Tier 10 and 9 gaps need to be worked on to make more proper fights, while I am all for weaker characters fighting stronger characters, such as having a faster weaker character fought a slower stronger character, it would help to work on the tierings within the tiers to avoid these large gaps, especially the 9-B and 9-A.

Here's my revision idea.

10-B is Human Level having a stronger Athletic Level scaling in with it, starting from 50 Joules to 500 Joules

10-A is Boxer Level gapped in between 500 to 10,000, yes 20 times is a large gap, but believe or not, if a baseline weaker that barely made past 500 Joules is only just doubled the speed of a much stronger character who is past 9,000 joules, and the weaker is smarter on his tactics and techniques, he could win, by punching the stronger on the weak points, adding enough enough hits or waiting for the stronger to tire out depending on the stamina, and I wouldn't say automatically the stronger by laying a hit on the weaker would actually win, as we can survive hits way stronger than us, such a bullet to the head, here's the proof link. Though inevitability you would get severe damage from this.

9-C Would be simply called Superhuman level, that is past the limitations of what is considerably possible for a human reach, being past 10,000 Joules, but for Grizzly Bears and Lions, it's not impossible for them reach.

9-B would much a much higher Joule level for Wall Level, and on my opinion I would have this at 250,000 Joules, which would lower the gap between 9-B and 9-A by a lot, so that there can be more fights used for this.

If you guys don't agree with this, that is fine, but it bothers me over how so many characters within this tier cannot be used in fighting each other, when these tiers are legit supposed to be more grounded closer to our level than most of what we see in fiction.

 

[Arceus0x]

I'll leave this up for others to decide but ngl If I had to change wall level i'd give it the energy of something that can, you know, bust a wall. One could start the gap at fragmentation value for creating a human sized hole or a calculation of destroying a 2x2m brick wall.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Alright so I disagree for a few reasons

1. 10000 joules is over 3x the AP It takes to crush a human skull, and nearly 30x the AP of breaking a human bone, putting this VERY bluntly, 10-A is for the athletes, ya know, the gymnasts, the soccer players, the athletics not really focused on fighting. Boxing is one of the most high-energy and most used high-power fighting style there is(There are quite a few that best it, but none are in the US of A), so yes, it is perfectly fine for us to say "Boxers can be 9-C" as that is the peak human level, the 300-5000 joule area is where most of the greats lie, ignoring living monsters like world-class Strongmen like Brian Shaw or Robert Oberst. I heavily disagree with changing these gaps

2. Matches should not even be mentioned when trying to change the borders of a tier, this is an indexing wiki first and a battleboard second.

 

[Finiznot]

Alright so I disagree for a few reasons

1. 10000 joules is over 3x the AP It takes to crush a human skull, and nearly 30x the AP of breaking a human bone, putting this VERY bluntly, 10-A is for the athletes, ya know, the gymnasts, the soccer players, the athletics not really focused on fighting. Boxing is one of the most high-energy and most used high-power fighting style there is(There are quite a few that best it, but none are in the US of A), so yes, it is perfectly fine for us to say "Boxers can be 9-C" as that is the peak human level, the 300-5000 joule area is where most of the greats lie, ignoring living monsters like world-class Strongmen like Brian Shaw or Robert Oberst. I heavily disagree with changing these gaps

2. Matches should not even be mentioned when trying to change the borders of a tier, this is an indexing wiki first and a battleboard second.

The bones would get broken, but it is not impossible to survive the hard blows, depending on how you're hit, such as when a guy was sound asleep and a tornado lifting him up, swinging him around fast and he survived it, I didn't think that was even remotely possible, especially considering the tiers Tornadoes are placed in, or if the stronger one who punched didn't hit full impact on the weaker character which would be detrimental to him getting a one shot.

 

[DaReaperMan]

The bones would get broken, but it is not impossible to survive the hard blows, depending on how you're hit, such as when a guy was sound asleep and a tornado lifting him up, swinging him around fast and he survived it, I didn't think that was even remotely possible, especially considering the tiers Tornadoes are placed in, or if the stronger one who punched didn't hit full impact on the weaker character which would be detrimental to him getting a one shot.

Oh I see, you don't understand that even people of comparable stature and whatnot can one-shot eachother with a well-placed hit, or that Tornadoes and other natural disasters despite having insane KE don't actually one-shot humans without throwing something into them because humans only take a very small fraction of that KE.

What next, should we give all humans Immortality type 2 because one guy survived horizontal bisection via explosion cause he got immediate treatment?

This isn't rocket science, and I'd go ask @DontTalkDT and @H3110l12345I20 about this if I were you because uh, this ain't gonna pass in it's current state

 

[KLOL506]

Reaper summed up pretty much everything I wanted to say here. Disagree as well.

@Mr. Bambu @DMUA @Therefir @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @DemonGodMitchAubin @TheRustyOne @Chariot190 @SunDaGamer @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Dark-Carioca @Migue79

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, I disagree with this change for Reaper's reasons. This feels super unnecessary too

 

[TheRustyOne]

While I believe our current ratings for the Lower Tiers are a bit iffy.

I also disagree with this as well.

 

[Chariot190]

The bones would get broken, but it is not impossible to survive the hard blows, depending on how you're hit,

Man, if ya get punched, and every bone in your body is broken, ya ain't scaling to shit.
Do humans scale to cars because you can survive being hit by one?
oh but if Mike Tyson punched you I'm sure it'd hurt yeah?
So does Mike Tyson hit harder than a speeding car?

No. The mechanics at play aren't that simple, especially, as you said, depending where you get hit.

such as when a guy was sound asleep and a tornado lifting him up, swinging him around fast and he survived it, I didn't think that was even remotely possible, especially considering the tiers Tornadoes are placed in, or if the stronger one who punched didn't hit full impact on the weaker character which would be detrimental to him getting a one shot.

Surface area, not taking even a negligible fraction of the total energy, and said man's own weight being a factor too.

Disagree with this thread, mostly just seems to misunderstand the mechanics of how stuff like this works, and misinterpreting the gaps to be "100% no matter what kill shot gaps".

 

[Psychomaster35]

Disagree with this as well

 

[DaReaperMan]

Chariot explained it better then I ever could, disagree even harder now

 

[KLOL506]

VBW jargon does not exist for stuff like this since it pertains to real-life mechanics.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I never thought I would have to unleash my inner keyboard warrior. I hope I did well in this post.

TL;DR. The basis for changing the tiers relies on these fallacies. And I think even a guy without prior knowledge on how we treat IRL on this site can actually debunk at least some of these.

Fallacies used (since I'm in the presence of staff, I feel like I have little problem confronting another guy on the internet's unconscious bias like my oppoent will after I type this message)

• Surviving is always durability 100% the time
• Ngou's punches are actually 9-B
• 9-C is only for superhumans.
• Applying battleboarding logic 100% to real life

Ok. I'll break down each part here.

Surviving is always durability 100% the time​

Ok. Durability means withstanding (i.e. taking little to no effect/damage). It says it in the VSBW official dura page and many online dictionaries. In order for any of the durability to scale to IRL people, they would need to have little to no effect/damage on them.

For example, even though IRL street fights are dangerous and punches can be potentially fatal, we can shrug off full pushes and punches from other physically comparable people to an extent. That's durability.

In order for any of the surviving feats to scale, the people would need to act as if nothing happened shortly after the attacks since they're going against piercing attacks from large animals. The Real World verse page's power of the verse page also says "Note: Unlike most fictional verses, the Real World does not violate any laws of physics or thermodynamics and as such, everyone and everything will be judged based on their own calculations. Numerous aspects such as the distinction between destructive capacity and attack potency, calculation stacking, power scaling, et cetera do not apply to the real world. Weapons and animals harming other animals or damaging vehicles via piercing attacks, leverage, or similar are not indicators of scaling, unless an opponent can be overcome through sheer raw power."

So realistic common sense, raw power as stated in the previous paragraph, having more direct stuff from IRL is more reasonable. All of the surviving feats linked and stated by the OP aren't withstanding.

Ngou's punches are actually 9-B​

I've worked on Composite Human over on Joke Battles, and I've had to debunk this many times.

"The powerkube's ratings in franklins has been proven to be marketing hype rather than a scientific rating due to inconsistencies in how feats like Ngannou's strongest punch work. Nagannou's punch for example, needs to be subsonic and above the world record for the fastest punch to get to it's alleged rating." - The note from the remastered CH page.

"Could the absolute peak of a man be 9-B? | VS Battles Wiki Forum

• Reply by KLOL506

" -

I'm having a feeling I'll need to add this to the scaling rules for IRL animals (since humans are defacto animals)

9-C is only for superhumans​

Uh...

"

9-C: Street level​

Characters or objects that stand at the threshold of human strength and capabilities, represented by Olympic level athletes or rigorously trained martial artists, as well as larger animals.
" - The official tiering page on VSBW

Lions and Bears can be at 9-C with sufficient context. And they're very superhuman by common sense.

I know that tiers 10-B to 9-C can get very over simplistic, but you're not going to be 9-C because people usually don't have the raw strength to contend with many 9-C animals.

Applying battleboarding logic 100% to real life​

This has been explained many times in this thread and the IRL verse page. I'll paste this thing again: The Real World verse page's power of the verse page also says "Note: Unlike most fictional verses, the Real World does not violate any laws of physics or thermodynamics and as such, everyone and everything will be judged based on their own calculations. Numerous aspects such as the distinction between destructive capacity and attack potency, calculation stacking, power scaling, et cetera do not apply to the real world. Weapons and animals harming other animals or damaging vehicles via piercing attacks, leverage, or similar are not indicators of scaling, unless an opponent can be overcome through sheer raw power."

I decided to highlight the last part.

Chariot190 pretty much explained the tornado feat if there is any. There's not a link, not to mention that we barely have context to how he fell asleep during a tornado.

Let's just say by some miracle, that he withstood all of the danmaku chaos of the tornado and the potential fall he would have to endure (hopefully not lethal). The energy being transfered to him is the wind impacting his surface area, not the entire tornado.

Saying person survives tornado = tier 8 dura would mean that he withstood the entire kinetic energy of the tornado when a person's virtually an ant in size compared to the tornado.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Because Tier 10-A: Athletic, is so low, that pretty much even skinny inexperienced boxers can reach if not surpass it,

I also forgot to mention that this is the point of tier 10-B. At heart, the average person is a very ameturish and not very physically strong boxer even in the ring and a not very experienced street fighter.

Regular people aren't naturally 10-A even by common sense alone, otherwise this wiki would have 10-B higher than it should be. The AP page literally has my calc on average person punches as a justification for 10-B. At a high-end, a naturally 84 kg person is 10-A and already above average in strength, not average in strength.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I do not agree with the proposals for what others have said. H311 and Reaper both said it best; we don't need to take every single detail so literally. 9-B and below are when we especially take extra effort to take the difference between simple punching and body slamming among many other things. Durability and Survivability are too widely different things; the former isn't just surviving it but taking a hit and suffering moderate damage at worst. We do not normally treat "He survived but was crippled, incapacitated, or knocked unconscious" as durability feats. We also avoid trying to justify simple chip damage as a justification for scaling usually. And it's not like everything that has "X Joules" involved is exactly something that guarantees "X Joules for scaling. I calculated this simply because we had a user who literally asked these questions, but the thermal energy produced when emptying a full bladder or bowel is like over 600 Kilojoules. But not like pissing or ******** actually generates those levels of force.

Perhaps the baseline for 9-C could be a lowball and wouldn't mind a reason to raise it above the 300 Joule baseline, but I am vehemently against how heavy all these proposals are.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Yeah, I do not agree with the proposals for what others have said. H311 and Reaper both said it best; we don't need to take every single detail so literally. 9-B and below are when we especially take extra effort to take the difference between simple punching and body slamming among many other things. Durability and Survivability are too widely different things; the former isn't just surviving it but taking a hit and suffering moderate damage at worst. We do not normally treat "He survived but was crippled, incapacitated, or knocked unconscious" as durability feats. We also avoid trying to justify simple chip damage as a justification for scaling usually. And it's not like everything that has "X Joules" involved is exactly something that guarantees "X Joules for scaling. I calculated this simply because we had a user who literally asked these questions, but the thermal energy produced when emptying a full bladder or bowel is like over 600 Kilojoules. But not like pissing or ******** actually generates those levels of force.

Perhaps the baseline for 9-C could be a lowball and wouldn't mind a reason to raise it above the 300 Joule baseline, but I am vehemently against how heavy all these proposals are.

Mistakes for calling me hell count has raised up to 4

Most definitely going to continue to spectate and if necessary, reply on this thread. This should be more interesting than my last major debate loss.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, I do not agree with the proposals for what others have said. H311 and Reaper both said it best; we don't need to take every single detail so literally. 9-B and below are when we especially take extra effort to take the difference between simple punching and body slamming among many other things. Durability and Survivability are too widely different things; the former isn't just surviving it but taking a hit and suffering moderate damage at worst. We do not normally treat "He survived but was crippled, incapacitated, or knocked unconscious" as durability feats. We also avoid trying to justify simple chip damage as a justification for scaling usually. And it's not like everything that has "X Joules" involved is exactly something that guarantees "X Joules for scaling. I calculated this simply because we had a user who literally asked these questions, but the thermal energy produced when emptying a full bladder or bowel is like over 600 Kilojoules. But not like pissing or ******** actually generates those levels of force.

Perhaps the baseline for 9-C could be a lowball and wouldn't mind a reason to raise it above the 300 Joule baseline, but I am vehemently against how heavy all these proposals are.

I think people should exit grade school before interacting with the wiki

 

[Dalesean027]

Every possible counterpoint has been made really I'm also heavily disagreeing with the proposals here

 

[Finiznot]

Forgot to send this link, here it is. He was actually unconscious.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Forgot to send this link, here it is. He was actually unconscious.

The feat is at least 9-C as my quick calc on his durability. The result is on my CH dura calcs here.

I looked at the feat from other sources, and he can be argued to withstand getting tossed by a tornado 30+mph to the ground. From the 3 scans I have, he only seemed to have minor injuries under his foot and had a blunt head injury.

Though I'll pinpoint that the reason why he likely shrugged off the tornado accident even after waking up is due to his young age, the moderately soft ground he landed on, and that the force was more spread out all over his body.

I'll explain the last reason in the last paragraph. It's pressure. The more a force is concentrated on a smaller area, the more powerful it will be and vice versa. Even if the visual in the video you showed is untrustworthy, it's likely that he was more flatly tossed to the ground.
----
Now, how is it that anyone can harm Matt with a full punch? The average person has higher PSI in a punch, more force is concentrated over a smaller area, making the punch more powerful. the average person doesn't have the punching energy of Mike Tyson or a Rugby player. That would require speed and/or mass that the average person doesn't have.

If the average person body slammed Matt most of their force being dispersed through most of the surface area infront of their body in-contact with Matt's body, that's more logical 9-C territory and more likely to harm Matt. Though most people (even staff) on-site would shrug off feats like this since tiers 10-B to 9-C have unavoidable accuracies, that's unless a revision gets us closer to reality.

 

[Antvasima]

Given what Chariot, H3, and Medeus said, this thread seems to have been rejected, so I will close it.